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I think what they are trying to say is this:

a. If you are firing at a flyer, you are using skyfire. This means any units on the ground would be resolved as snap shots.
b. snap shots do not allow you to use blast, template, or weapons that do not use a normal BS to hit.
c. Death ray does not use a normal BS to hit, therefore it cannot be resolved as a snap shot.

Just like if I shoot at a Doom Scythe and it chooses to evade, it can only fire snap shots the next turn. This means it cannot use its death ray.

Ok, so if he fired his telsa gun at the Razorwing he would have needed to declare skyfire.

Since, Skyfire is in effect any shots made to the ground can only be shot as snapfire.

Due to the fact that Death Ray would not be able to snapfire you could not use Death Ray right?

Makutsu wrote:After the game I reread the rules for it, so the DoomScythe is supposed to roll 3D6" for the line right? and there's no thickness to it right?
I don't remember what he said but he said that the line was 9" thick or something...

I really hope this is a misinterpretation... if not, your opponent was TFG. There's nothing in the weapon's rule suggesting its thickness, but the new BRB covers it as being considered to be stupidly thin. "A hair's width" i think is the phrasing.

9" thick isn't a line, it's a canyon.

it could be my interpretation of what he said was wrong, maybe he meant 9" line or whatever because I never saw him roll the 3D6 so I don't know what was going on...

Makutsu wrote:Ok, so if he fired his telsa gun at the Razorwing he would have needed to declare skyfire.

Since, Skyfire is in effect any shots made to the ground can only be shot as snapfire.

Due to the fact that Death Ray would not be able to snapfire you could not use Death Ray right?

No, you can still fire the deathray but it can only hit fliers/FMC/Skimmers. And in this instance he would have to make sure the death ray crossed over the razorwing, or if that isn't possible then either not fire the deathray or choose a different target (remember, this is assuming he is pre-measuring before declaring his target and before rolling the range on the death ray). Either way, it's just easier to roll the range on the death ray first and then choose your target for the tesla destructor second, resolving the shots at the same time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Super Ready wrote:

Makutsu wrote:After the game I reread the rules for it, so the DoomScythe is supposed to roll 3D6" for the line right? and there's no thickness to it right?
I don't remember what he said but he said that the line was 9" thick or something...

I really hope this is a misinterpretation... if not, your opponent was TFG. There's nothing in the weapon's rule suggesting its thickness, but the new BRB covers it as being considered to be stupidly thin. "A hair's width" i think is the phrasing.

9" thick isn't a line, it's a canyon.

1mm thick is the width in the FAQ.

Ok, so he would NOT have been able to shoot down my Razorwing with the telsa guns AND hit my Venoms with the Death Ray?

Venoms aren't flyers.
Razorwings are.

Kevin949 wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Please state for me where Death Ray "targets" a unit. It merely hits units under the line. Skyfire with out Interceptor States that shots targeting other units are snap fire. Death Ray never targets them, but merely hits them.

Now if you didn't declare skyfire you cannot hit a flyer because it states you cannot "resolve" the shot as anything but snapshot. Thus you cannot resolve the hit process against a flyer.

No, you're not listening. Skyfire, hard to hit, and snap shots do not say they require you to target a unit. That is my whole point, "targeting" is not necessary. Not with the death ray anyway. You still have to target with the tesla destructor but you can not hit air and ground in the same shooting phase. You are not allowed to resolve shots against ground units if you're skyfiring the death ray and you're not allowed to hit air units if you're not skyfiring the death ray. This is because you are not allowed to 'fire' the death ray as a snap shot which means you can not resolve it as a snap shot.

You are the one that is not listening. Please tell me

- Where it states ground and air can't be hit in the same shooting phase. That wording does not exist.
- Please tell me where it says you can not "resolve" shots against ground units If you sky fire. Last I check it says shots must snap fire against not flier units. However death ray never "targets" them but rather just hits them, big difference there.
- Please state where I have ever said you are snapfiring the death ray? Technically the only time you are ever snap firing te death ray is if you evade. At all other times you are never targeting flier or ground unit but rather just hitting them.

I think this would be the same as the bomb squigs from before about hitting fliers.

If it is shooting and can't be snap fired, then hence it cannot be fired

It declares skyfire and shoots hitting a flier with 3 ground units underneathe. The gun did not snap fire nor target the ground units. 100% legal at this point. The necron codex at this point states that all the models under the line are hit. The geound units are not excluded by this. The shot whould not have been a snap fire against them as they are not "other targets" as per the skyfire rule because they were never targeted"

Ok, so if he does a telsa shot at my Razorwing first, THEN he shoots his death ray does he have to draw a line between him and my Razorwing?

All the shooting takes place at the same time and skyfire is declared before anything else. The proper sequence is to atart with the death ray. Just based on pure geometry and targeting it's nearly impossible to hit a Razorwing and 3 vemons with a Death ray.

no no no,
his order was like this...
1. Telsa Gun (It was a one to one shot) onto my Razorwing, so I guess he automatically skyfired?

2. Death Ray from his gun through 3 of my venoms

Illegal the deathray would have to hit the razorwing too.

so if it doesn't reach then can it still use it?

So all guns have to be used towards the unit targeted anything else hit by the Death Ray while shooting at the Razorwing can still be hit?

Makutsu wrote:Ok, so he would NOT have been able to shoot down my Razorwing with the telsa guns AND hit my Venoms with the Death Ray?

Venoms aren't flyers.
Razorwings are.

unless the venoms are skimmers (sorry, I don't know your army), correct.

wait skimmers have something to do with skyfire??

BlueDagger wrote:
You are the one that is not listening. Please tell me

- Where it states ground and air can't be hit in the same shooting phase. That wording does not exist.
- Please tell me where it says you can not "resolve" shots against ground units If you sky fire. Last I check it says shots must snap fire against not flier units. However death ray never "targets" them but rather just hits them, big difference there.
- Please state where I have ever said you are snapfiring the death ray? Technically the only time you are ever snap firing te death ray is if you evade. At all other times you are never targeting flier or ground unit but rather just hitting them.

-The book doesn't have to say that because it's not a rule, it's how the doom scythe works because of it's weapons and restrictions.
-Again, there is no rule that says that, but you can not fire a snap shot with a weapon that does not use BS, which the death ray does not. And no, everything says "shots are resolved as", nothing talks about targeting them in any sense so the death ray not needing to "target" something is a non-issue.
-You are snap firing it depending on your skyfire declaration and the units it passes over. The "only" non-flyer you can hit with it when skyfiring would be skimmers.

Seriously, you need to get away from this targeting/not-targeting argument, it's not part of the equation in the slightest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makutsu wrote:wait skimmers have something to do with skyfire??

Yes, skyfire allows you to hit flyers, FMC, and skimmers at full BS. Keep in mind, this DOES NOT mean skimmers have some kind of immunity to non-skyfire shooting (believe me, I looked because I was confused on why they were added). It is simply an added bonus to skyfire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlueDagger wrote:It declares skyfire and shoots hitting a flier with 3 ground units underneathe. The gun did not snap fire nor target the ground units. 100% legal at this point. The necron codex at this point states that all the models under the line are hit. The geound units are not excluded by this. The shot whould not have been a snap fire against them as they are not "other targets" as per the skyfire rule because they were never targeted"

*Sigh* All units hit by a death ray are considered targets. Otherwise you would have to have a primary that the tesla destructor would have to shoot at OR you couldn't shoot the tesla destructor at the same time as the death ray. That rule still says nothing about "targeting", only simply talks about "other targets" which would include everything under the line of the death ray.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makutsu wrote:so if it doesn't reach then can it still use it?

So all guns have to be used towards the unit targeted anything else hit by the Death Ray while shooting at the Razorwing can still be hit?

This is partly why you/he should be premeasuring everything and determining the roll for range on the deathray before anything else. Though obviously to determine the range of the death ray you have to actually declare your shooting attack, so it's a gamble. But to answer your question, if the death ray fires and doesn't cross anything, he can't fire the TD.

ooook lets do this step by step quoting rules by the book so that some people stop making up rules.

Situation: A Doom Scythe wish to use it Death Ray on both a Vedetta and rhino that is directly behind it.

Step 1. Nominate the Doom Scythe to fire (pg. 12)
Step 2. Choose the Vendetta as a target and declare you are using skyfire (pg 12)
Step 3. Nominate a point with 12" of the gun on the ground that is properly within the arc (Necron codex & pg 72)
Step 4. Roll 3D6 (for the sake of argument we'll say 16") and measure a line from the first point to anywhere 16" away. In this case we will place it over the vendetta so that the rhino is under the line as well (Necron codex)
Step 5. Check to see what models are under the line to determine what is hit (Necron Codex)
Step 6. Proceed with resolving the hits against targets (pg 73 armour penetrating rolls)

Note in the steps above:
- the rhino NEVER has to be declared as a target, thus negating the skyfire restriction against ground units.

skyfire pg 42 wrote:... it can only snap fire shots against other targets.

(bold and underlining by me. Model hit does not = target)
- there is no rule in the book that states you can not hit both flier and ground units
- the special rules of the necron weapon states that all models under the line are hit and since the target did not require snapfire, the weapon may fire as normal. Models hit at that point are a byproduct of the Death Ray's rules.

I'm tired of going in a loop with you on this.

Well ok

So we agree Flyers like Doom scythe do NOT have split fire correct. If his partner fired with the doom beam first then he can shoot any target hit by the beam in Line of sight that the beam passed through. If he does it the other way like fires the tesla first then the beam he would have to hit the target he shot with the tesla first. NO split fire. NONE. So its best to shoot your beam then your tesla or just one of them. Not in two opposite directions.

The beam on flyers is a little more tricky. Since it cant snap fire it cant shoot the ground and hit a flyer, and vice versa if he is skyfiring he cant hit the ground targets on a roll of a 6 since it dosent roll to hit.

I personally dont think any GD beam weapon that dosent roll to hit can hit a flyer. Once again people are over complicating a simple problem.

In conclusion you can aHHHHHH never mind if ya cant read the rules right then arguing here is pointless

Long story short, for now you should just confer with your gaming partner/opponent and agree on how it should work. BlueDagger will probably post his same thing again and you know what I'm going to say.

My personal opinion is that both kevin and bluedagger are slightly wrong. The line is 1mm thick so I don't think it would be possible to hit a flier and a rhino by passing through them both. It would either go over or under one of them. Remember a fliers base is effectively ignored except for movement. An elegant solution we are using at our flgs is to simply resolve fliers as though they were on a separate level (like ruins...I don't think it's possible for the death ray to hit all models on differing levels of a ruin, it's a line not a wall). If you skyfire it can hit only fliers, if not it hits only ground based targets.

BlueDagger wrote:
Note in the steps above:
- the rhino NEVER has to be declared as a target, thus negating the skyfire restriction against ground units.

skyfire pg 42 wrote:... it can only snap fire shots against other targets.

(bold and underlining by me. Model hit does not = target)

You shortened the rule a bit, which takes it out of context.
A model with this special rule, or firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. Unless it also has Interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets.

"Targets" as used in the Skyfire rule, is in context of unit types, not in context of "that rhino, those two terminators, and that Storm Raven".


I find it interesting that you claim no need for Target, then post this:

Step 1. Nominate the Doom Scythe to fire (pg. 12)
Step 2. Choose the Vendetta as a target and declare you are using skyfire (pg 12)
Step 3. Nominate a point with 12" of the gun on the ground that is properly within the arc (Necron codex & pg 72)
Step 4. Roll 3D6 (for the sake of argument we'll say 16") and measure a line from the first point to anywhere 16" away. In this case we will place it over the vendetta so that the rhino is under the line as well (Necron codex)
Step 5. Check to see what models are under the line to determine what is hit (Necron Codex)
Step 6. Proceed with resolving the hits against targets (pg 73 armour penetrating rolls)

I'm sorry, but you can't argue no target if you have to us targets twice in your example of no targeting.

-Matt

Xzerios wrote:Only catch there is for the beam to hit the flier, it must have been a Skyfire shot. Since his friend didnt declare Skyfire, its assumed that he is firing at the ground units with his attacks. Those attacks though may still be fired at fliers but without the firers normal Ballistic Skill and the beam would be fired at the ground units.

If your friend used his normal Ballistic Skill on the flier, then he was wrong.

You don't need to roll to hit for the death ray IIRC

BlueDagger wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Please state for me where Death Ray "targets" a unit. It merely hits units under the line. Skyfire with out Interceptor States that shots targeting other units are snap fire. Death Ray never targets them, but merely hits them.

Now if you didn't declare skyfire you cannot hit a flyer because it states you cannot "resolve" the shot as anything but snapshot. Thus you cannot resolve the hit process against a flyer.

No, you're not listening. Skyfire, hard to hit, and snap shots do not say they require you to target a unit. That is my whole point, "targeting" is not necessary. Not with the death ray anyway. You still have to target with the tesla destructor but you can not hit air and ground in the same shooting phase. You are not allowed to resolve shots against ground units if you're skyfiring the death ray and you're not allowed to hit air units if you're not skyfiring the death ray. This is because you are not allowed to 'fire' the death ray as a snap shot which means you can not resolve it as a snap shot.

You are the one that is not listening. Please tell me

- Where it states ground and air can't be hit in the same shooting phase. That wording does not exist.
- Please tell me where it says you can not "resolve" shots against ground units If you sky fire. Last I check it says shots must snap fire against not flier units. However death ray never "targets" them but rather just hits them, big difference there.
- Please state where I have ever said you are snapfiring the death ray? Technically the only time you are ever snap firing te death ray is if you evade. At all other times you are never targeting flier or ground unit but rather just hitting them.

I think this will be FAQ'd, as pointed out the width of the beam is 1mm, they need to say what the hieght of the beam is, I would assume it would something simular, the way you are taking it is the beam is 1mm thick but quite a few inches high.

 Lukus83 wrote:
My personal opinion is that both kevin and bluedagger are slightly wrong. The line is 1mm thick so I don't think it would be possible to hit a flier and a rhino by passing through them both. It would either go over or under one of them. Remember a fliers base is effectively ignored except for movement. An elegant solution we are using at our flgs is to simply resolve fliers as though they were on a separate level (like ruins...I don't think it's possible for the death ray to hit all models on differing levels of a ruin, it's a line not a wall). If you skyfire it can hit only fliers, if not it hits only ground based targets.

Since you pretty much said the same thing I've been saying, how am I wrong in your eyes?

Well if you are saying the same thing I guess I misunderstood. I admit it, I was skim reading.

 Makutsu wrote:
I think this would be the same as the bomb squigs from before about hitting fliers.

If it is shooting and can't be snap fired, then hence it cannot be fired

Actually, it was decided bomb squigs COULD hit flyers if the Tankbustas weren't in a vehicle that moved

I can actually see how this would work, technically. Dont trample me if I am wrong, this just another view

Do not declare Skyfire, place point 1 below the flyer base and extend to get venoms (DR completly ignoring flyers), snapshot the Teslas vs the Razorwing (Teslas cmpletely ignoring Venoms).

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
I think this would be the same as the bomb squigs from before about hitting fliers.

If it is shooting and can't be snap fired, then hence it cannot be fired

Actually, it was decided bomb squigs COULD hit flyers if the Tankbustas weren't in a vehicle that moved

Who decided? because you cant overwatch them per the FAQ... ie they cant be snapfired.