Best Primarch Tactician

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**Galdos**

Beaviz81 wrote:
Excuse me, but I was of the impression that Ferrus had beaten Fulgrim so badly that only him allowing the demon to possess him was the reason for Fulgrim to beat Ferrus, and also for them (the Iron Hands) to regard the flesh as weak in turn.

No and no

I dont remember exactly how it went but it was NOT that Ferrus was kicking his ass. Ferrus could have prevailed in the end but Fulgrim was able to use his daemon aid to help him win, I dont remember exactly. I THOUGHT I remember it that it was Fulgrim winning but he didnt mean to kill Ferrus but he lost control and the Daemon did it and thats when Fulgrim began to regret it. Again I dont remember for sure, I just no it was not a one sided battle.

The second thing is DEFFINETLY wrong. The Iron Hands had ALWAYS regarded the flesh as weak even before that. In fact, Ferrus was quoted as saying that once the Great Crusade was over he would teach his legion that not all flesh is weak and that he will stop them from thinking that when things cool down.

**Frecklesonfire**

So can we end this discussion with our results of the following:

Horus is stated by the lion as having the best tactics. Which was my poll question. So i guess many people who voted havent read Fallen angels.
Rogal dorn is stated as having a brilliant mind but the actual books about him say other wise.
Roboute Guilliman is a master strategist, but Horus once again is better, as stated in many books and fluff.

So... Horus wins in everything, tactics, strategy. And Guilliman is 2nd in Strategy, and Lion is 2nd in tactics. Dorn is somewhere... with them but has gotten no love.

By the way the best posts on here were from Void__Dragon ripping people apart while sounding similar to Magnus's speech style, i thought it was funny.

**DarthMarko**

I hate to say it but @freckles nailed it....
disagree about Void_guy - he's just annoying...
/thread

**Garvy**

Galdos wrote:
Beaviz81 wrote:
Excuse me, but I was of the impression that Ferrus had beaten Fulgrim so badly that only him allowing the demon to possess him was the reason for Fulgrim to beat Ferrus, and also for them (the Iron Hands) to regard the flesh as weak in turn.

No and no

I dont remember exactly how it went but it was NOT that Ferrus was kicking his ass. Ferrus could have prevailed in the end but Fulgrim was able to use his daemon aid to help him win, I dont remember exactly. I THOUGHT I remember it that it was Fulgrim winning but he didnt mean to kill Ferrus but he lost control and the Daemon did it and thats when Fulgrim began to regret it. Again I dont remember for sure, I just no it was not a one sided battle.

The second thing is DEFFINETLY wrong. The Iron Hands had ALWAYS regarded the flesh as weak even before that. In fact, Ferrus was quoted as saying that once the Great Crusade was over he would teach his legion that not all flesh is weak and that he will stop them from thinking that when things cool down.

This...

**Durza**

Galdos wrote:
Beaviz81 wrote:
Excuse me, but I was of the impression that Ferrus had beaten Fulgrim so badly that only him allowing the demon to possess him was the reason for Fulgrim to beat Ferrus, and also for them (the Iron Hands) to regard the flesh as weak in turn.

No and no

I dont remember exactly how it went but it was NOT that Ferrus was kicking his ass. Ferrus could have prevailed in the end but Fulgrim was able to use his daemon aid to help him win, I dont remember exactly. I THOUGHT I remember it that it was Fulgrim winning but he didnt mean to kill Ferrus but he lost control and the Daemon did it and thats when Fulgrim began to regret it. Again I dont remember for sure, I just no it was not a one sided battle.

Just to expand here, the duel was pretty evenly matched. After re-reading, they actually seem to have struck what would have been fatal blows to a normal person to each other at the same time- Fulgrim hit Ferrus in the head with Forgebreaker, and Ferrus used that opening to cut open Fulgrim's stomach. The pain Fulgrim felt because of that cut through the daemon's manipulations of him, which made him see Manus as a friend again, which would have left Manuis free to kill him if Fulgrim hadn't drawn the daemon blade in order to deflect it (it's not actually stated whether it was reflex or the daemon's manipulation that made him draw the sword). Fulgrim then beat Manus using the power of the daemon blade, then attacked Ferrus of his own free will when Ferrus tried to get his sword back, though he did try to prevent it being a killing blow while the sword was already set in motion.

**thenoobbomb**

Frecklesonfire wrote:
So can we end this discussion with our results of the following:

Horus is stated by the lion as having the best tactics. Which was my poll question. So i guess many people who voted havent read Fallen angels.
Rogal dorn is stated as having a brilliant mind but the actual books about him say other wise.
Roboute Guilliman is a master strategist, but Horus once again is better, as stated in many books and fluff.

So... Horus wins in everything, tactics, strategy. And Guilliman is 2nd in Strategy, and Lion is 2nd in tactics. Dorn is somewhere... with them but has gotten no love.

By the way the best posts on here were from Void__Dragon ripping people apart while sounding similar to Magnus's speech style, i thought it was funny.

Isstvan's tactics were done by Alpharius

**Void__Dragon**

Frecklesonfire wrote:
So can we end this discussion with our results of the following:

Horus is stated by the lion as having the best tactics. Which was my poll question. So i guess many people who voted havent read Fallen angels.
Rogal dorn is stated as having a brilliant mind but the actual books about him say other wise.
Roboute Guilliman is a master strategist, but Horus once again is better, as stated in many books and fluff.

So... Horus wins in everything, tactics, strategy. And Guilliman is 2nd in Strategy, and Lion is 2nd in tactics. Dorn is somewhere... with them but has gotten no love.

By the way the best posts on here were from Void__Dragon ripping people apart while sounding similar to Magnus's speech style, i thought it was funny.

The Lion thinks that, certainly, but the Lion also believed that buttering up Perturabo with siege engines would make him Warmaster. Evidently, he was wrong, all that accomplished was making Vulkan take starship weaponry to the face, and killing numerous men.

And lol, truly? I am flattered.

**Tiarna Fuilteach**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Frecklesonfire wrote:
So can we end this discussion with our results of the following:

Horus is stated by the lion as having the best tactics. Which was my poll question. So i guess many people who voted havent read Fallen angels.
Rogal dorn is stated as having a brilliant mind but the actual books about him say other wise.
Roboute Guilliman is a master strategist, but Horus once again is better, as stated in many books and fluff.

So... Horus wins in everything, tactics, strategy. And Guilliman is 2nd in Strategy, and Lion is 2nd in tactics. Dorn is somewhere... with them but has gotten no love.

By the way the best posts on here were from Void__Dragon ripping people apart while sounding similar to Magnus's speech style, i thought it was funny.

The Lion thinks that, certainly, but the Lion also believed that buttering up Perturabo with siege engines would make him Warmaster. Evidently, he was wrong, all that accomplished was making Vulkan take starship weaponry to the face, and killing numerous men.

And lol, truly? I am flattered.

And then you ruined it.....Magnus is much more of a rofl primarch than an lol one

**Void__Dragon**

I do not recall speaking to you.

**Manesni**

in the end tactics will only get you so far.
i'd say Guilliman would win based purely on the complete package which allowed him to field an absolutely ridiculous number of astartes

**Manchu**

Manesni wrote:
Guilliman would win based purely on the complete package

Good name for a Land Raider.

"Complete Package"

**Galdos**

Manesni wrote:
in the end tactics will only get you so far.
i'd say Guilliman would win based purely on the complete package which allowed him to field an absolutely ridiculous number of astartes

Thanks, to bad no one asked for that lol

Doesnt Sun Zhu or someone have a quote on what happens if you got good tactics but poor strategy and what happens if it is reversed?

**Durza**

Galdos wrote:
Manesni wrote:
in the end tactics will only get you so far.
i'd say Guilliman would win based purely on the complete package which allowed him to field an absolutely ridiculous number of astartes

Thanks, to bad no one asked for that lol

Doesnt Sun Zhu or someone have a quote on what happens if you got good tactics but poor strategy and what happens if it is reversed?

Probably. But none of the primarchs were very good at strategy anyway. Even if they were hands down the best fighters in the galaxy, they still shouldn't have been putting themselves on the front lines like that. They would have been better suited as champions instead of generals, since a general has to understand that it's good for the army if he doesn't put himself where a stray bullet or sniper can pick him off. Perturabo was the only primarch who understood this I think, even if Alpharius had an interesting work-around.

**Alpharius**

Oh, I think the Alpha Legion understood that best of all.

And look at who was their biggest critic!

**Galdos**

Durza wrote:
Galdos wrote:
Manesni wrote:
in the end tactics will only get you so far.
i'd say Guilliman would win based purely on the complete package which allowed him to field an absolutely ridiculous number of astartes

Thanks, to bad no one asked for that lol

Doesnt Sun Zhu or someone have a quote on what happens if you got good tactics but poor strategy and what happens if it is reversed?

Probably. But none of the primarchs were very good at strategy anyway. Even if they were hands down the best fighters in the galaxy, they still shouldn't have been putting themselves on the front lines like that. They would have been better suited as champions instead of generals, since a general has to understand that it's good for the army if he doesn't put himself where a stray bullet or sniper can pick him off. Perturabo was the only primarch who understood this I think, even if Alpharius had an interesting work-around.

The thing was that they could do both. They were unrivalled in the strategy which is what allowed them to be such good generals. Wait no what Im saying is backwards, you meant tactics I think here.

Strategy is done long before the battle begains covering battle to battle. Tactics is once the battle begans. Even so Primarchs could do both no problem because their ability to multitask was so good.

Also Rogal Dorn did a lot of commanding from a safer back position.

Finally, some of the best generals were constantly getting in trouble by their second in commands for being too close to the front lines. It inspires loyalty and causes the men to fight better if they see their leader is with them. Not the smartest thing to do sense a lot of them got shot in the process doing it. General Reynolds at Gettysburg and 'Stonewall' Jackson and Antietam. Both fine generals who the men loved, both killed from being to close to the front lines

**Veteran Sergeant**

Galdos wrote:
Manesni wrote:
in the end tactics will only get you so far.
i'd say Guilliman would win based purely on the complete package which allowed him to field an absolutely ridiculous number of astartes

Doesnt Sun Zhu or someone have a quote on what happens if you got good tactics but poor strategy and what happens if it is reversed?

Well, it's a good thing that Guilliman has both. The guy wrote the book on warfare. One can only imagine that it's got all of Sun Tzu's material in it too, lol. After all, Guilliman created his own empire. The other primarchs were generals, or warlords, or kings when the Emperor found them. Guilliman had already established his own empire.

How this poll is even close is astounding. Unless people just want to fall back on semantics of tactics vs strategy.

Want to know the reality? The Primarchs had very little use for tactics except in ensuring that their Sergeants and Captains were well versed. Tactics is a small unit consideration, and the Primarchs were commanding Legions. It's kind of a silly topic to begin with, since we really don't have many examples of the Primarchs actually being tacticians. We just know that, out of the primarchs, Guilliman was the undisputed master of warfare. Mind you, this doesn't diminish any of the other primarchs. It's just that there is always going to be a "best", and not everyone gets a trophy. Horus's selection as Warmaster had more to do with his charisma. Even he suggested that Guilliman was a better choice, and as he grew paranoid after being corrupted, was angry/worried that other primarchs thought he wasn't the best choice for the job.

And the quote you were looking for is "Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." Or perhaps "All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved."

BTW, there is no such thing as Astartes, as a plural for Astarte. Adeptus Astartes is an Adeptus of the Astartes (stars/space/whatever). It isn't an Adeptus made up of Astartes. There is no singular Astarte. People get confused on this. A member of the USMC or the British Royals is a Marine, because the Marine Corps is a corps of Marines, corps being an organizational unit. On the other hand, a country has an Army, but an individual is not an army, he is a soldier.

**Galdos**

thanks for finding that quote Vet. Sarge

I meant the first one

**Alpharius**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

BTW, there is no such thing as Astartes, as a plural for Astarte. Adeptus Astartes is an Adeptus of the Astartes (stars/space/whatever). It isn't an Adeptus made up of Astartes. There is no singular Astarte. People get confused on this. A member of the USMC or the British Royals is a Marine, because the Marine Corps is a corps of Marines, corps being an organizational unit. On the other hand, a country has an Army, but an individual is not an army, he is a soldier.

Pedant much?

More to the point, maybe in The Real World.

There is such a thing as an Astartes in the made up fictional funland known as 40K, isn't there?

**Veteran Sergeant**

No, actually, there isn't.

Black Library authors have been instructed over the last several years to refer to them as Space Marines, not Astartes.

I think you're confused. The military organizations called the Adeptus Astartes exist. However, an individual Marine is not an Astarte.

**DarthMarko**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
No, actually, there isn't.

Black Library authors have been instructed over the last several years to refer to them as Space Marines, not Astartes.

I think you're confused. The military organizations called the Adeptus Astartes exist. However, an individual Marine is not an Astarte.

So they are not greek goddeses of sexuality,fertility, and war?

**Alpharius**

Ha!

Good one!

Though there is an Astartes named Artemis...

**Frecklesonfire**

Well, it's a good thing that Guilliman has both. The guy wrote the book on warfare. One can only imagine that it's got all of Sun Tzu's material in it too, lol. After all, Guilliman created his own empire. The other primarchs were generals, or warlords, or kings when the Emperor found them. Guilliman had already established his own empire.

How this poll is even close is astounding. Unless people just want to fall back on semantics of tactics vs strategy.

Want to know the reality? The Primarchs had very little use for tactics except in ensuring that their Sergeants and Captains were well versed. Tactics is a small unit consideration, and the Primarchs were commanding Legions. It's kind of a silly topic to begin with, since we really don't have many examples of the Primarchs actually being tacticians. We just know that, out of the primarchs, Guilliman was the undisputed master of warfare. Mind you, this doesn't diminish any of the other primarchs. It's just that there is always going to be a "best", and not everyone gets a trophy. Horus's selection as Warmaster had more to do with his charisma. Even he suggested that Guilliman was a better choice, and as he grew paranoid after being corrupted, was angry/worried that other primarchs thought he wasn't the best choice for the job.

And the quote you were looking for is "Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." Or perhaps "All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved."

BTW, there is no such thing as Astartes, as a plural for Astarte. Adeptus Astartes is an Adeptus of the Astartes (stars/space/whatever). It isn't an Adeptus made up of Astartes. There is no singular Astarte. People get confused on this. A member of the USMC or the British Royals is a Marine, because the Marine Corps is a corps of Marines, corps being an organizational unit. On the other hand, a country has an Army, but an individual is not an army, he is a soldier.

Have you read the heresy bub? I think your oversight is astounding.

**Matt.Kingsley**

Guilliman is winning something for once

jk, jk

**Beaviz81**

Every Primarch had something he was much better than everyone else at. Leman Russ was the best raider due to him being a Viking and such. For boring and pragmatic defensive tactics Rogal Dorn was the master. The best at garrisoning was Peturbo. For getting there fustest wuth tha mustest look for the Khan. Angron was the one unleashed for War is Hell. Gulliman was the best administrator. Horus the best conquer. And so on. They all had their facets

**rednecroncryptek**

Obviously it is Horus, I mean - he almost took over Terra for

sake! Getting there would be damn near impossible in the 'current' millenia 40, and then Russ, coz I love 'im.

**Jimsolo**

Jimsolo wrote:
I always thought that Angron was secretly the smartest of the Primarchs. It isn't spelled out anywhere, it's just my own private assessment.

See, I always thought the Primarchs were supposed to be, in addition to super-strong, super-smart. Capable of tactical reasoning and planning dozens of moves in advance, which explains part of why they were so successful. (And part of why their wars with each other were so bloody.)

One of the biggest dangers a Primarch could face would be another Primarch, capable of seeing through his brother's strategy. But Angron has the way around that.

If you attack your enemy hard enough, fast enough, and with enough raw, brutal aggression, then he will have to abandon whatever plans he has in motion and respond in kind. When you take it to the kill-or-be-killed level, and his only possible escape is to kill you first, then you have forced him to fight using your strategy. And, if you've been doing this for as long as Angron has, then the advantage is yours, since you are a master with this tactic and he but a novice.

Some people see Angron as nothing more than a raging, foolish brute, but I posit that he has found a genius of simplicity that has worked out pretty well for him so far.

It's not a popular opinion, but I maintain it.

**st2me**

Alpharius
What better way to infiltrate an organization and terrorize it for the inside out.

**Sabreguy**

Primarchs two and eleven had pretty good tactics joining the ultramarines

**Thatguy91**

Pretty sure the Lion wins this one. Its close between him and Horus.

**Turdston**

Frecklesonfire wrote:
The Ultramarines

why? i dont understand ultramarine fans, they do not seem to have any redeeming qualities that i have read at

They have blue armor and are slightly above average fighters