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I did a search for "officer of the fleet" and nothing came up, so I'm starting a new thread. Apologies if this has already been discussed.

I'm wondering what my fellow Guard commanders' thoughts are on taking the Officer of the Fleet advisor to help out against flyers now that 6th is out? It just hit me today that of a sudden, Officer of the Fleet might be more worthwhile as a relatively inexpensive way to help combat flyers. He wasn't too useful in 5th, but with it being mandatory for flyers to start in reserve, we may start seeing a lot more enemy in reserve, and if we can keep those flyers off the board for one more turn, that's one turn less of them strafing us (especially since the Hydra isn't that great a pick without interceptor and you can only take 1 Aegis Defence Wall). This is mitigated by the fact that everything automatically arrives turn 4, but I'm thinking having flyer spam need a 4+ versus a 3+ on turns 2 and 3 could be worth 30 points.

Thoughts?

I think it is an excellent choice if you expect flyers. It's cheap and gives you a little breathing room against flyers, no matter how many are brought. It's also good against things not flyers, so it gives you some times to work. I think it's something you'd want with an army that started with most everything on the board, so you could make the most of the early turns.

I guess it depends on whether you're planning to bring flyers/AA of your own, or just take the hits and focus on the objectives.

If you're bringing counters, the OoF is terrible since you want your opponent's flyers to arrive first (so you come out of reserve and with yours and get the first shot). The last thing you want to be doing is penalizing their reserve rolls and helping them hold back the flyers and get the first shot when yours are forced to arrive. And even with ground-based AA you want the target flyers in ASAP so you can shoot them before your opponent's ground units finish killing your Hydras and quad guns.

On the other hand, if you plan to just take the damage, the OoF is decent since it's a small price to pay for a reasonable chance of denying a shooting phase to at least one enemy flyer.

He's one of my favorite upgrades in the game. I only take him in tourney games though, as he tends to draw a lot of hate. You have to realize, his whole job is to just sit there and screw with the opponent's plans. Take him with an astropath, and now your army comes in on 2+'s, and the opponent on +4. If you run lots of stormtroopers, flyers, and marbo, this can be a big deal.

If you're running a shooty army (so always then) he is essential. He makes reinforcements arrive piecemeal. Even against flyer spam lists, he spreads out the flyers, allowing you to focus fire and kill them better. Against deepstrike heavy lists like Daemons, he can really hurt them, and give you the time you need to regroup and fight back. He can even force your opponent to reroll the outflank roll if you want. For 30pts, he's a steal. Yeah, occassionally you get opponent's who don't reserve, where he becomes a 30pt ablative wound, but when he does get to use his ability, he more than makes up for it.

No.


If anyone is spamming enough flyers that you need to take an upgrade to space them out, you probably won't have the firepower to deal with them; spaced out or not.

You're better off taking three autocannons for that price. Or refusing a game against flyer-spam.


Source: I've spammed flyers against OoTF. It doesn't do enough to bother me. Worst case scenario, all of my flyers come in on turn 4. Guess what that means; you get tabled turn 4.

 TheCaptain wrote:
No.


If anyone is spamming enough flyers that you need to take an upgrade to space them out, you probably won't have the firepower to deal with them; spaced out or not.

You're better off taking three autocannons for that price. Or refusing a game against flyer-spam.


Source: I've spammed flyers against OoTF. It doesn't do enough to bother me. Worst case scenario, all of my flyers come in on turn 4. Guess what that means; you get tabled turn 4.

I'm not buying this argument. The point isn't to delay all of the flyers, it's that it delays some of them, which lets the IG army pick them off piecemeal. Assuming that IG (of all Codices) wouldn't have enough firepower to take down fliers if they're spaced out doesn't feel very reasonable to me.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm not buying this argument. The point isn't to delay all of the flyers, it's that it delays some of them, which lets the IG army pick them off piecemeal. Assuming that IG (of all Codices) wouldn't have enough firepower to take down fliers if they're spaced out doesn't feel very reasonable to me.

The problem is that your AA units are going to be the top priority target for a flyerspam list. They have a very limited life expectancy, so your AA firepower is going to be dropping quickly as the game goes on. Keeping 1-2 of the opposing flyers in reserve just means that your opponent gets to keep a larger second wave safe from return fire as the last of your AA dies, instead of on the table and facing intact Hydras/quad guns/etc. And remember, we're talking about the difference between 4+ and 3+. It's not like you're forcing them to come in one at a time over the next five turns, which is what you seem to have in mind. Meanwhile you've spent almost half the cost of a Hydra giving your opponent exactly what they want*, instead of on more AA guns!

And, like I said, this is especially true if your AA is based on flyers of your own. Whoever brings their glass cannon aircraft in first tends to lose the dogfight, so your OoF is just helping your opponent hold another flyer or two in reserve where they can come in unopposed next turn and shoot down your flyers before they can react.


Finally, note that this is all said on the assumption that you're playing a generic all-comers list, not a dedicated anti-flyerspam list. This means that you have a very small number of units which are effective against flyers (and at least one of them is probably a flyer of your own), so 50% of the flyerspam list's aircraft is still enough to focus fire and remove the key threats very quickly. If you're going really heavy on the AA then things change a bit and the flyerspam list wants a bigger alpha strike. This makes the OoF a bit more valuable I guess, but if you're list tailoring like that you suck and should quit wargaming.




*Ideally the reserve rolls would give the flyerspam army its anti-tank guns on turn 2 (to remove the opposing AA), followed by its anti-infantry, AA fighters and transports on turn 3-4. Getting reserves on a 3+ in 6th gives you a better alpha strike, sure, but it tends to result in a few too many units from the ideal second wave arriving on turn 2 when the opposing AA is still a threat and/or their ideal targets haven't been shot out of transports/arrived from reserve/etc. Dropping reserves to a 4+ still gives you a solid alpha strike, but reduces the chance of the "all of my objective holders came in early and got shot down" problem.

If you have took a lot vendettas....
I know the advice should be you want your flyers out after the enemy to get the first shots at each other.
But if you bring on 6 vendettas and there are only half the enemies flyer or none at all then the vendettas can keep themselves entertained.
Then the enemy flyers coming on piecemeal should mean you do not get too many dogfights to deal with.

Interesting thoughts posted here. I can see both sides, but personally, I think I'd rather have one less flyer on the board. If more of them show up turn 2, it won't help that all your AA is still on the board.

I had the idea to add Officer of the Fleet to a 1850 tournament list I'm tinkering with, where I'm happy with the first 1810 points and don't know what to do with the last 40. Not particularly heavy AA (just a quad gun) ... suppose I could scrounge 35 points elsewhere to come up with a lone Hydra but since the Hydra is useless against non-flyers/skimmers now, I thought an OoF might be a better all-round choice since he works on non-flyer reserves also.

 TheCaptain wrote:
No.


If anyone is spamming enough flyers that you need to take an upgrade to space them out, you probably won't have the firepower to deal with them; spaced out or not.

You're better off taking three autocannons for that price. Or refusing a game against flyer-spam.


Source: I've spammed flyers against OoTF. It doesn't do enough to bother me. Worst case scenario, all of my flyers come in on turn 4. Guess what that means; you get tabled turn 4.

This doesn't really hold water. If you have a flyer heavy list, not getting them in = really bad. Your inferior ground forces are now on their own, getting their asses handed to them. Your chances of being tabled have just increased by a lot, and all those expensive flyers now have much less time to do real damage.

The way you have written it, it sounds like it is an advantage to get all your planes in turn 4 instead of all your planes spread from turn 2-4, that is ridicolous. The longer the planes are on the board, the more killing power they are able to deliver.

Subjective "evidence": I rolled up the "-1 to enemy reserves" and had an OotF against a flyer heavy necrons list. My opponent didn't get a single plane in before turn 4, and by then, I had almost wiped his ground forces, having all secondary objectives and I was in control of the relic in my own DZ. There was no way my opponent could somehow take advantage of this situation to "wipe" me with his planes. They were instead left way to much to do between hunting down AA and my planes, going after my relic and nearby scoring units, my warlord or my linebreaker. My opponent was left helpless because of a cheap upgrade and a warlord trait.

The OotF is great value in 6th. For flyer heavy lists, the astropath should also be considered.

Except even two flyers can cause havoc amongst an unfit army. Any good flyer list is going to have ground-countermeasures against AA, and enough staying power to sit around for a while.

Yeah, on paper against a Theoretical list of flyers, it's a good buy. Fact is, in practice, it won't be that special. Even if you bring as many Hydras as your opponent brings flyers, he'll still be able to kill THEM piecemeal before stronger/faster than you can kill his flyers. They get a full turn of shooting before you do, so even if you limit him to a 4+ on reserves, 50% of his flyers come in per turn. That's a lot of flyer.

I don't really need to argue it, because I've played against it, but I offer you to try it face off against 4+ flyers and you'll discover I have a good idea of what I'm talking about.. A TAC list of flyers will beat all but the most tailored lists, even guard.

Also subjective "evidence": I faced the same situation with a 4 vendetta, 3 Valk list; had two flyers come in second, and third turn. By turn four, his AA was dead (Three hydras) and he was promptly tabled turn 5.

I'm also confused how he couldn't wipe you with flying circus. He must have been awful.

But even if half of these flyer which except for necrons will rarely be more then two units that still means you get to take them out peice meal. the worst thing would be him bringing all of them on in the same turn. The problem my guard list would have is that I run vendettas and the best way for me to hunt flyers is to show up on the board after his do. If he comes on second then he gets to shoot mine first.

The salient point has already been mentioned by peregrine, then white ninja, and now I'll mention it.

You don't want your flyers (or your non-interceptor ground to air units) showing up before the flyers do.

To get even deeper, not only will a flyer that shows up after an enemy flyer get to shoot first, but he can position himself such that the flyer he just shot at, and possibly other, will be too close to be able to return fire, they'll be forced to leave combat airspace, and then your response could be to leave combat airspace as well. Now he'll come on first again, and you'll be right on his ass.

But as Peregrine mentioned, if your answers to flyers are either non-existent, hyper-resilient, or interceptors, then an officer of the fleet would be awesome. Spread the flyers out more to give your interceptors and resilient ground to air units a chance to pick them off. Or if you are planning to just ignore them (something I'm rapidly thinking is not smart) then having some flyers on the table for less of the game would be ok.

Guess I'll just have to try it out for myself. I was going to take 4 Ratlings with those last 40 points, but may have to go with the OoF to test this out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shep wrote:
But as Peregrine mentioned, if your answers to flyers are either non-existent, hyper-resilient, or interceptors, then an officer of the fleet would be awesome. Spread the flyers out more to give your interceptors and resilient ground to air units a chance to pick them off. Or if you are planning to just ignore them (something I'm rapidly thinking is not smart) then having some flyers on the table for less of the game would be ok.

Yeah, this is the boat I'm in. My answer to flyers is a lone quad gun and hoping to hell I can roll some 6s with my autocannons and meltaguns. So in other words, just some autocannons!

Peregrine wrote:The problem is that your AA units are going to be the top priority target for a flyerspam list. They have a very limited life expectancy, so your AA firepower is going to be dropping quickly as the game goes on. Keeping 1-2 of the opposing flyers in reserve just means that your opponent gets to keep a larger second wave safe from return fire as the last of your AA dies.

THIS.

OotF were bad in 5th ed, because they were nearly as likely to HELP your opponent as they were to hurt them. This basic fact hasn't changed, it's just gotten amplified with the fact that he's more likely to actually get used in any given game.

In theory, the OotF "disrupts" your opponent plans, but I've often found that it, in fact, "improves" their plans instead. And you have to pay no small amount of points for the privilege of keeping your opponent's fliers safer against your AA power, or helping ensure that your opponents fliers show up after your stuff hits the table, or reducing the amount of time that units transported in fliers are going to be subjected to hazard or shots directed at them after they deploy.

The only time I'd even vaguely consider the OotF is if I knew I was up against an opponent who liked to outflank stuff, as that would actually screw with their plans, what with the forced reroll. As for reserves management, it feels like a wash. More importantly, the awfulness you feel for helping your opponent win a game easily covers the feeling of glee for slightly disrupting them in a game.

Most armies don't have good anti-flyer options, so it would be worthwhile to delay to limit the overall damage they can do in the game. The problem is that IG have Vendettas which will murder flyers with ridiculous efficiency, so delaying them simply gives the enemy the first shot.

Don't you get the option whether or not to delay enemies?

 TheCaptain wrote:
Except even two flyers can cause havoc amongst an unfit army. Any good flyer list is going to have ground-countermeasures against AA, and enough staying power to sit around for a while.

Yes, and my three flyers had a field day against his ground forces as almost all of his AA was tied up in his 6 planes stuck in reserve.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Yeah, on paper against a Theoretical list of flyers, it's a good buy. Fact is, in practice, it won't be that special. Even if you bring as many Hydras as your opponent brings flyers, he'll still be able to kill THEM piecemeal before stronger/faster than you can kill his flyers. They get a full turn of shooting before you do, so even if you limit him to a 4+ on reserves, 50% of his flyers come in per turn. That's a lot of flyer.

Yes, it is a lot of fliers, but it is less than without the OotF = you are more likely to be able to handle them as they "dribble in". And yes, hydras are pretty tame, they should never be the prime AA.

 TheCaptain wrote:

I don't really need to argue it, because I've played against it, but I offer you to try it face off against 4+ flyers and you'll discover I have a good idea of what I'm talking about.. A TAC list of flyers will beat all but the most tailored lists, even guard.

I've played a lot against flyer heavy necron lists with up to 6 flyers at 1750pts. I can't understand how anyone can claim that your enemy getting his planes in earlier is better? A worse reserve roll will spread the enemy planes out more, meaning it is less chance that your AA measures are overwhelmed.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Also subjective "evidence": I faced the same situation with a 4 vendetta, 3 Valk list; had two flyers come in second, and third turn. By turn four, his AA was dead (Three hydras) and he was promptly tabled turn 5.

He brought insufficient AA, you brought one of the best armies in the game at the moment. How would his situation be better in any way if you had gotten 4 flyers in turn 2 and the rest in turn 3? He would have been tabled in turn 3 instead? Guess that could be better if you are a horrible opponent

 TheCaptain wrote:

I'm also confused how he couldn't wipe you with flying circus. He must have been awful.

Intelligent comment. You are saying that flying circus will always be able to table any opponent army in 1-3 turns? Sure, scythes are great value, but they aren't THAT badass.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Don't you get the option whether or not to delay enemies?

No. It's always on.

This is the same reason I don't play with an astropath (unless, likewise, I'm using outflankers and want the side reroll). I don't always WANT my stuff showing up earlier, but I don't actually have a choice when I take the astropath.

If they worked more like an autarch, I'd much more consider them, but as they don't...

Illumini; you misquote me; it's not BETTER getting your flyers in later rather than sooner; it just isn't that big of a deal.

And 3 hydras is insufficient AA?

It's miles above what other armies can field. Not to mention, any more, and it's either a tailored list, or a list that will flounder against anyone with decent ground-troops. Who in their right mind would bring 4+ hydras? That's effectively 2 HS slots solely spent on AA; in a game where flyerspam, while awesome and more common, is still a relative rarity.

PS. Yes, if a flying circus is played by a competent player, it should table in 3-4 turns. I hate calling things cheese, but...well, damn. Even if it doesn't table, it should have next to zero trouble winning. It's gross.

TheCaptain wrote:I don't really need to argue it, because I've played against it, but I offer you to try it face off against 4+ flyers and you'll discover I have a good idea of what I'm talking about.. A TAC list of flyers will beat all but the most tailored lists, even guard.

Your tone has certainly changed; a few weeks ago you claimed the only way to beat IG was to cheat. I might fathom a guess you are trolling again, since you have contradicted yourself which tells me you don't really believe the game is as cut-and-dry as you claim sometimes.

TheCaptain wrote:And 3 hydras is insufficient AA?

That doesn't make it sufficient, it just makes it better than those armies that can't muster as such.

Assuming you don't have flyers, I can theoretically see how having the enemies flyers come in piecemeal would be nice ASSUMING you have enough AA to take them down after they get shot up.

If you have flyers then no, you want your opponent to bring his flyers in ASAP so you can shoot them down with your own.

I always regarded OOTF as an auto-take in 5th. Now he got even better.

I can't remember the last time I fought against an army that didn't have loads of reserves/outflankers. Dividing your enemy up and inconveniencing your opponent is easily worth 30 points.

Hell the outflank re-roll alone can make a 500 point unit worthless.

Testify wrote:I can't remember the last time I fought against an army that didn't have loads of reserves/outflankers.

Right, so as I said, if you have this kind of a meta, than fine, but I really can't believe these circumstances are all that common.

At my local meta, it's more like a couple of guys that have a single outflanking unit, or maybe two. Most tournament lists don't use outflankers either, so if you're in a tourney-heavy meta, then don't bother either.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:I don't really need to argue it, because I've played against it, but I offer you to try it face off against 4+ flyers and you'll discover I have a good idea of what I'm talking about.. A TAC list of flyers will beat all but the most tailored lists, even guard.

Your tone has certainly changed; a few weeks ago you claimed the only way to beat IG was to cheat. I might fathom a guess you are trolling again, since you have contradicted yourself which tells me you don't really believe the game is as cut-and-dry as you claim sometimes.

Oh man, where do I begin?

Claiming the only way to beat IG was to cheat was a joke, brah. Like...no one should take that at face value. If someone said to you "The only way to beat the Yankees is to cheat" would you say "NUH UH! TROLL" or would you understand the speaker means that they're an incredibly powerful team that you'll be very pressed to take on? Don't take things so seriously, especially hyperbole like that.

And I wasn't contradicting myself, even if I did mean that; because I RUN a TAC list with flyers. So yeah, my TAC Flyer GUARD list will beat regular guard, unless you're cheating, tailored, or lucky. No one fields enough AA to deal with the amount of flyers guard can field if they want to. I see no contradiction. Nor do I see any trolling at all in the post you've quoted. I'm pretty damn correct, actually. Face a TAC foot list against a TAC flyer list and, well...

This happens



Only army that can reliably take on Flyer Guard, while still being a viable list against other armies and not some tailored mess, is Flyer Necrons. Which would be an incredible fight to witness.

If by "incredible" you mean "boring" then yeah. That gak is not why I got into 40k.

Is he running Necrons with Necron Allies? How is he fitting in 10 flyers?

Probably double force org chart at 2K.

nvm, Night Scythes are flyers as well.

Everything naked, double FO, you can fit in 2 Overlords, 5xImmortals in Night Scythes x4, x6 Doom Scythes.

 Amaya wrote:
Is he running Necrons with Necron Allies? How is he fitting in 10 flyers?

Troops can each take 1 as a dedicated transport, and they can take them in their heavy support section. I think the HQ can buy one as well.