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 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
Is he running Necrons with Necron Allies? How is he fitting in 10 flyers?

Troops can each take 1 as a dedicated transport, and they can take them in their heavy support section. I think the HQ can buy one as well.

This.

I believe he goes over his list near the beginning, actually. It's quite cheesy. Deliciously, if I do say so myself.


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 Testify wrote:
If by "incredible" you mean "boring" then yeah. That gak is not why I got into 40k.

It'd be like what I imagine Drop-Zone Commander is like.

Buncha flyers duke it out for a couple turns, then toss down their transported troops. Crashes would be cool, the crowded board would look purdy, and flyers are quite fun to use with the new rules.

I think 60 Lootas and 6 Dakkajets could take that on effectively.

Each squad of Lootas would land .56 pens (after saves) a turn on average. Roughly the same with Dakkajets on the turn they don't Waagh. That's 6.72 pens on flyers a turn.

If you can take double fortifications, take 2 units of Gretchin /w Quad-Guns as well.

 Amaya wrote:
I think 60 Lootas and 6 Dakkajets could take that on effectively.

Each squad of Lootas would land .56 pens (after saves) a turn on average. Roughly the same with Dakkajets on the turn they don't Waagh. That's 6.72 pens on flyers a turn.

If you can take double fortifications, take 2 units of Gretchin /w Quad-Guns as well.

Like I said; a tailored anti-flyer list could do just fine against them; but idk how viable that list would be against other lists. The point being flyer spam, right now, is more TAC than any other list (just about)

It couldn't even dent a Landraider, but an average of 120 s7 shots and 27 s6 shots a turn would hurt anything else.

 Amaya wrote:
It couldn't even dent a Landraider, but an average of 120 s7 shots and 27 s6 shots a turn would hurt anything else.

Yeah but whatever comes out of that landraider would be hurting.

Armies like the necron one on the picture are too over the top. Play against some drop pods, and you will be wiped in turn 1.

People should take this opportunity to press for forgeworld to be allowed in their communities. It has a great balancing factor on the air war, as all armies except nids gets lots of new options to combat fliers. (we all know that those that play nids are gluttons for punishment anyways)

The Captain wrote:And 3 hydras is insufficient AA?

Yes, but don't get me wrong, don't go with more hydras, go with something else. Hydras are terrible against AV12 fliers, and are unlikely to do much more than strip a couple of hull points of a necron flier. They also lack interceptor/survivability. Hydras are okay as a supporting AA measure, expected to clean up after something else, not as the only AA measure.

Hydras are one of the most efficient AA option in the game that doesn't have Skyfire. What would you use instead of them or actual flyers as IG?

You just removed the most effective option: own fliers. If you don't want to bring any fliers yourself, you are limiting your options pretty heavily, as fliers is the best (codex) option for fliers.

An interceptor gun (icarus lascannon is best IMO) is a given, and the aegis line is great protection against the damage fliers can cause.

And, luckily for me, I live in a country where forgeworld is allowed at all major tourneys, so I have options to buy sabre guns, hyperios, mortis dread etc.

If you do not have FW options, and you do not want to use any fliers of your own, you will likely not have enough AA.

Everything else is going to be much more improvised AA. Twin-linked high S/AP weapons (razorbacks, BiD veterans, guided fangs/devs) can take down some fliers, same with units relying on volume of fire (lootas).


Of course, you could also play an army with insane alpha-strike capability, designed to wipe out weak groundforces in one turn.

S6 and S7 spam.

Fliers aren't invincible. You still hit them on 6's.

Heck, even a bolter boat punisher will get the job done.

Furthermore, fliers have rather predictable flight paths, and are rather limited in their movement. It's not too hard to get a meltagun near them, and, once again, all you need is a 6, and you're talking about a likely pen with Ap1.

Most variations of Devastators are horribly inefficient at downing flyers.

The most efficient units are those with very cheap s6/s7 spam and minimal defensive capabilities. War Walkers, Lootas, Purgation Squads are actually pretty good /w Psycannons, similar things.

 Ailaros wrote:

Furthermore, fliers have rather predictable flight paths, and are rather limited in their movement. It's not too hard to get a meltagun near them, and, once again, all you need is a 6, and you're talking about a likely pen with Ap1.

They can move 18-36" per turn PLUS flat out. anywhere in a 180 degree arc. Unless you're saturating with melta, you probably won't have much chance to put melta in range. At least not on purpose.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/08/40k-flying-vehicle-flight-routes.html

Seen here; there are many flight paths, and sure, if you use the first two; you could get melta in there, but that's not smart piloting. The third or fourth are the best flight patterns, and can ensure relative safety from any short-range weapons that the flyer wants to avoid.

TheCaptain wrote:http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/08/40k-flying-vehicle-flight-routes.html

Yeah, this kind of proves my point. A flier only has one or two turns of both being on the board, and pointing at your stuff. After that point, it's either flying off the board, or its no longer pointing at your stuff. Fliers are really limited in the amount of distance they can move, and what direction they can move it in, especially if your opponent wants to actually shoot at your stuff.

Furthermore, in most of those patterns, you eventually wind up in or near the opponent's DZ. Given that a meltagun has an 18" threat range, it's not that terribly difficult to have a few hanging around in strategic locations for them to come out and get a shot off. As mentioned, fliers are pretty easy to predict their flight path, With even a turn's warning, you're now talking about an up to 30" threat range.

And given the flimsy, flimsy armor on most fliers, you sort of only need a single meltagun hit to do the job...

With premeasuring in now; any player worth his salt can easily avoid an 18" threat range weapon. He just turns left or right. If there's melta to his left AND right, he flies forward. If there's melta to his left AND right AND in front, he flies off the board. Like I said, unless you're saturating the board with melta, a good player can blast you from a good distance, avoiding your melta-squads.

Granted, it's not impossible for a meltagun to score a hit on a flyer once in a while; but I wouldn't count on it. Even then, you're still penning on a 5+

Unless somehow he flew his flyer within 12" of your melta-guy, the melta guy got into melta range, AND hit the 6. Then that player probably deserves to lose his flyer.

Just watched the first ~10:00 minutes of the ridiculous Necron Airforce batrep that The Captain posted. All but one of those flyers showed up on turn one and alpha-struck the Wolves. I am having a hard time seeing how it would have been a bad thing to have a few fewer of those flyers show up ... might have given him a fighting chance?

Hydra Heavy guard would have gotten smoked like a cheap cigar also since Hydras are not interceptors. However, if the Necron player was rolling 4+ maybe only 5 instead of 8 flyers show. Maybe now there's a chance to get some shots in?

And just to derail my own thread a bit ... has Reecius tried a list that has infiltrators against the Necron Airforce? Seems to me that some infiltrating storm troopers could really mess-up the airforce's day if they could kill that lone Necron lord on the table (autowin).

 NWansbutter wrote:
Just watched the first ~10:00 minutes of the ridiculous Necron Airforce batrep that The Captain posted. All but one of those flyers showed up on turn one and alpha-struck the Wolves. I am having a hard time seeing how it would have been a bad thing to have a few fewer of those flyers show up ... might have given him a fighting chance?

Hydra Heavy guard would have gotten smoked like a cheap cigar also since Hydras are not interceptors. However, if the Necron player was rolling 4+ maybe only 5 instead of 8 flyers show. Maybe now there's a chance to get some shots in?

And just to derail my own thread a bit ... has Reecius tried a list that has infiltrators against the Necron Airforce? Seems to me that some infiltrating storm troopers could really mess-up the airforce's day if they could kill that lone Necron lord on the table (autowin).

He tables him; taking like 1 hullpoint of damage total.

I think the spread wouldn't have done much.

 Amaya wrote:
Hydras are one of the most efficient AA option in the game that doesn't have Skyfire. What would you use instead of them or actual flyers as IG?

They do have Skyfire.

That SW list was a bad matchup to counter flyers. Hell, even a SW tailored for flyers wouldn't do well probably.


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 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
Hydras are one of the most efficient AA option in the game that doesn't have Skyfire. What would you use instead of them or actual flyers as IG?

They do have Skyfire.

Wasn't listed in AB, checked the FAQ and you are indeed correct.

So...that begs the question now, why would you take anything other than Hydra Flak Tank batteries to kill flyers?

 Amaya wrote:

So...that begs the question now, why would you take anything other than Hydra Flak Tank batteries to kill flyers?

That is the question. Quadguns are better since they have skyfire AND interceptor, but you can only get one. So there really is nothing else to take for killing flyers, however, reasons for not taking Hyrdras is because they got nerfed against non-flyers (can only snapshot) and the Forgeworld kits are fairly expensive! Although at 75 points each, you probably can't go far wrong bringing a couple. Not that they would have helped against that Necron Flying Circus. Heck, even a list with 9 Hyrdras would probably get tabled by that list if all 9 of his flyers showed up (one to kill each Hydra -- they are no tougher than Razorbacks and that Necron list seemed to have zero problem with Razors).

Methinks GW didn't think things out too well when they gave the Necrons the ability to craft such a stupid list. It strikes me that the GW play-testers give WAY too much credit to people and seem to think that such combos will not be used.

 NWansbutter wrote:

 Amaya wrote:

So...that begs the question now, why would you take anything other than Hydra Flak Tank batteries to kill flyers?

That is the question. Quadguns are better since they have skyfire AND interceptor, but you can only get one. So there really is nothing else to take for killing flyers, however, reasons for not taking Hyrdras is because they got nerfed against non-flyers (can only snapshot) and the Forgeworld kits are fairly expensive! Although at 75 points each, you probably can't go far wrong bringing a couple. Not that they would have helped against that Necron Flying Circus. Heck, even a list with 9 Hyrdras would probably get tabled by that list if all 9 of his flyers showed up (one to kill each Hydra -- they are no tougher than Razorbacks and that Necron list seemed to have zero problem with Razors).

Methinks GW didn't think things out too well when they gave the Necrons the ability to craft such a stupid list. It strikes me that the GW play-testers give WAY too much credit to people and seem to think that such combos will not be used.

They balanced it for 5th; not everything is going to be balanced in the first few months of a new edition. It has no fault to GW or anyone else; some codices have flyers right now, some don't. Some codices have good AA, some don't. Welcome to new editions; where everyone takes a while to catch up. Say hi to Eldar, they're 2 editions back now.

Eldar, Space Wolves, Tyranids, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Chaos Space Marines, and SoB all require allies to access fliers (with the exception of Flyrant) or any form of AA that will be effective. The only somewhat effective form of AA any of those codices can field is War Walkers with Scatter Lasers or Shurikan Cannons and even those are less efficient than Lootas.

 Amaya wrote:
Eldar, Space Wolves, Tyranids, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Chaos Space Marines, and SoB all require allies to access fliers (with the exception of Flyrant) or any form of AA that will be effective. The only somewhat effective form of AA any of those codices can field is War Walkers with Scatter Lasers or Shurikan Cannons and even those are less efficient than Lootas.

Enter: Forge World. A valid, inclusive portion of the game that players have every right to use.

Eldar, Space Wolves, Black Templars, Dark Angels, and CSM all have entries for this.

GW additionally allowed Flyer-equipped allies for this specific reason; not their fault people refuse to use allies (now a core-mechanic in the game)

SoB, meh. They should take allies anyways.

Everyone has access to flyers; some people just choose to ignore them.

FW is not allowed everywhere and not a viable option.

 Amaya wrote:
FW is not allowed everywhere and not a viable option.

Forgeworld is a branch of Games Workshop specifically designed for use in 40k.

It is perfectly within game rules to use Forge World, sorry.

However, if a player refuses to play against ForgeWorld, that is their prerogative. It is just as much their prerogative to refuse a game against special characters, or models painted purple.

It's incredibly viable; there are just people that don't like playing against that which they do not know. That is the fault of the opponent, not the user.

I understand that you enjoy being willfully obtuse, but not all tournaments allow Forgeworld. Whether or not they should is an entirely different debate. As long as FW is not allowed universally, you can not expect codices to rely on FW support for AA.

Question: what options to Imperial Guard have from Forgeworld for AA? Anything that's better than Hydras?

 Amaya wrote:
I understand that you enjoy being willfully obtuse, but not all tournaments allow Forgeworld. Whether or not they should is an entirely different debate. As long as FW is not allowed universally, you can not expect codices to rely on FW support for AA.

Some tournaments also don't allow double Force-Org. ETC2012 didn't use 6th edition.

Do you ignore these (valid) facets of the game simply because tournaments say you can't use them? Your logic suggests you would.

Unless you're a strictly tournament-gamer, which very few are, FW is perfectly fine. Besides, if you ARE a tournament gamer, you probably aren't using any of the aforementioned armies; save for SW and maybe CSM.

And there are still allies. Ignoring these facts is being willfully obtuse, amigo.

I think it's a good idea NWansbutter. A turn a flyer is not on the board is a turn a flyer isn't blasting your face off.

 NWansbutter wrote:
Question: what options to Imperial Guard have from Forgeworld for AA? Anything that's better than Hydras?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Navy/THUNDERBOLT-HEAVY-FIGHTER.html

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Navy/LIGHTNING-FIGHTER.html

Both incredibly good at AA. Though the first is also solid as a ground-strike craft.

There's also

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Emplacements/HYDRA-FLAK-PLATFORM.html

No clue on the rules, but I figure it'd be cheaper and a decent alternative to hydras. Looks sick too.

Has Skyfire, 2/3 the price, not twinlinked.

[quote=Peregrine 472319 4696130 6e2a7a65b40f1b794057fa352dcb053f.jpg
If you're bringing counters, the OoF is terrible since you want your opponent's flyers to arrive first (so you come out of reserve and with yours and get the first shot). The last thing you want to be doing is penalizing their reserve rolls and helping them hold back the flyers and get the first shot when yours are forced to arrive. And even with ground-based AA you want the target flyers in ASAP so you can shoot them before your opponent's ground units finish killing your Hydras and quad guns.