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I've been hearing some mixed comments about the Leman Russ Vanquishers. Some say they are complete trash, others say that they are useful for certain roles. For sure we know that:


Pros

Long range
Superb(?) tank-hunter
Sturdy chasis


Cons

Useless outside vehicle hunting
Needs Pask to be fully useful
Other HS choices are "better"


I'm thinking if you could bring one outfitted with Pask, it could sit in the far corner to pop a vehicle per turn. Hull-lascannon seems to be a must. So, what's your opinion on them?

Pasksquishers are incredibly good at what they do, but they are rather expensive for a specialty you can normally cover with other options. They are bar non the best against tanks, and can do some serious damage to MC's as well.

Always take the lascannon, pask or not. Without pask, just use it as a solo sniper tank. With pask, best put with a buddy and maybe sponsons.

My friend uses a really effective combo of a pasksquisher with a plain LRBT or exterminator with lascannon to protect it.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
Pasksquishers are incredibly good at what they do, but they are rather expensive for a specialty you can normally cover with other options. They are bar non the best against tanks, and can do some serious damage to MC's as well.

Always take the lascannon, pask or not. Without pask, just use it as a solo sniper tank. With pask, best put with a buddy and maybe sponsons.

My friend uses a really effective combo of a pasksquisher with a plain LRBT or exterminator with lascannon to protect it.

And for that cost, you can get a trio of melta-cannons.

It's way to expensive for what you get. I'll deal with the short range in exchange for the template and fast attack choice.

-Matt

Against AV14:

1 shot at BS3 (.5)
Shot has to pen (.2)
Pen shot has to wreck (.07)
Opponent has to fail cover save (.046)

The odds of you wrecking an AV14 vehicle is about once in every 22 times you shoot the gun.

For 155 points? Yeah...

Even if you're only looking to glance, it still does its job very poorly, and very expensively. Adding pask makes it a little bit more effective for a huge jump in price to an already overcosted model.

The whole point of HS slots is to kill stuff. Vanquishers don't really kill stuff. Thus, don't bother.

I thought the Vanquisher Cannon was S8, so how can it wreck AV14 at all?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I thought the Vanquisher Cannon was S8, so how can it wreck AV14 at all?

It's got 2d6 armor penetration

Think of it as an AP 2, 72" range meltagun that's always in melta range.

 Ailaros wrote:
Against AV14:

1 shot at BS3 (.5)
Shot has to pen (.2)
Pen shot has to wreck (.07)
Opponent has to fail cover save (.046)

The odds of you wrecking an AV14 vehicle is about once in every 22 times you shoot the gun.

For 155 points? Yeah...

Even if you're only looking to glance, it still does its job very poorly, and very expensively. Adding pask makes it a little bit more effective for a huge jump in price to an already overcosted model.

The whole point of HS slots is to kill stuff. Vanquishers don't really kill stuff. Thus, don't bother.

Basically this. I tried it for a half or dozen or so games. It is utterly useless, one of the few Russ varients I'd say that about.

Especially now in 6th ed.

Really? I've had nothing but positive experiences with it and Pask. Even if it doesn't make its points back, it pops a few transports making the game easier.

But why not just take an exterminator with a lascannon? 40 points cheaper, and also disassembles transports, while also being able to throw down against MCs and hordes. Or, you can give it sponson heavy bolters, and really wreck face, and still save 20 points.

If the Vanquisher was given AP 1 (to give the extra 2+ to the vehicale damage chart) it would give it a good boost to killing power.

or even to ability to remove 2 hull points. (i dunno call the ability, Brute Force, or something)

that would make it worth the points.

Statistics don't justify it.

Even with Pask you're only hitting 66.7% of the time. That's a lot of misses.
Add the Lascannon on and most of the time you'll be scoring at least 1 hit, but you're paying 220 for that.

Is it really s8+2d6? I thought it was s8 + roll 2d6 and pick the highest. It can reliably knock 2 HPs off of AV10-12, but it's not a true tank hunter.

Honestly, for hunting AV12 and lower Hydra Flak Tanks are better. You can take 3 of them for the price of one Pask'squisher'.

That's 12 twin linked s7 shots, 9 hits, 1.5 pens against AV12. And they are better against flyers, monstrous creatures, and squadrons.

I don't see why people would take anything other than Hydras or Medusas. Greco-Roman Mythology > Space Wolves.

You've got to do a lot more than that to fix a vanquisher.

To me, it would only be worth taking if it could reliably put down a transport in 2 shots, or a piece of AV14 in 4. Just think of everything you would have to do to make that happen.

For example, in the case of the transport, if you're going to keep it at BS3, it would need a rule that says that if it hits a vehicle with AV12 or less, on a 2+, it just wrecks the vehicle outright. Against AV13/14, it would have to ignore all cover saves (including jink), and if the tank hits, on a 2+ it removes 2 HP.

If you don't make the vanquisher on par with this level of power, it will always make more sense to take an exterminator and a few meltaguns somewhere.

With Pask and a Lascannon, it becomes a STR9 72" range gun, BS4, AP2 with Melta
and has another STR9 bs4 AP2 non-melta shot. Save for foot-lists, I've never had my Pasquisher not make back it's points.

3+ to hit
6+ to pen
5+ to pop it

It's quite killy, actually. The thing everyone seems to not notice is that it's also AV14. Too often it gets compared to meltavets and other tank-killers. Fact is, the Vanquisher will always be in range, and is much harder to kill than a couple of melta-guardsmen. It will usually get 6-10 s9 shots (3-5 of those being melta) a game, while the meltavets might get 3-6 s8 melta shots.

It's a backfield tank-sniper, not a foot-slogging guard squad. That's why it's viable for its points.

That said, there are better options. I'd only take it if you're running a gunline.

PS: If my Autocannon blob doesn't particularly need the reroll, casting prescience on it is hilarious.

 TheCaptain wrote:
With Pask and a Lascannon, it becomes a STR9 72" range gun, BS4, AP2 with Melta
and has another STR9 bs4 AP2 non-melta shot. Save for foot-lists, I've never had my Pasquisher not make back it's points.

3+ to hit
6+ to pen
5+ to pop it

It's quite killy, actually. The thing everyone seems to not notice is that it's also AV14. Too often it gets compared to meltavets and other tank-killers. Fact is, the Vanquisher will always be in range, and is much harder to kill than a couple of melta-guardsmen. It will usually get 6-10 s9 shots (3-5 of those being melta) a game, while the meltavets might get 3-6 s8 melta shots.

It's a backfield tank-sniper, not a foot-slogging guard squad. That's why it's viable for its points.

That said, there are better options. I'd only take it if you're running a gunline.

PS: If my Autocannon blob doesn't particularly need the reroll, casting prescience on it is hilarious.

You can cast prescience on TANKS?!?!? WHY WAS I NOT TOLD?!?!?!

In all seriousness though, most IG armies aren't hurting for anti tank, but if they came with coaxial heavy stubbers they'd be a lot more viable.

 TheCaptain wrote:
With Pask and a Lascannon, it becomes a STR9 72" range gun, BS4, AP2 with Melta
and has another STR9 bs4 AP2 non-melta shot. Save for foot-lists, I've never had my Pasquisher not make back it's points.

3+ to hit
6+ to pen
5+ to pop it

It's quite killy, actually.

You ever do the maths on that?

TheCaptain wrote:
3+ to hit
6+ to pen
5+ to pop it

.666*.58(you actually need 7's to pen)*.333 = .128

Or, it wrecks only about 1 in 8 shots, and that's assuming your opponent's vehicle doesn't have cover. If it does, you're looking at it killing something with its main gun about in 2 or 3 GAMES.

The lascannon (now S10) is a nice touch. But that's still .666*.333*.333 or .07, or about once in 13 shots. Combine the two together and, once again, assuming no cover, it's wrecking AV14 on a .2, or about one in every 5 shots, or one in every 7.5 shots with cover. For 220 points.

If your pasquisher is never failing to make its points back, then you, sir, are very lucky with your pasquisher. If only were we all.

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:
3+ to hit
6+ to pen
5+ to pop it

.666*.58(you actually need 7's to pen)*.333 = .128

Pask's Special Rule makes the main gun S9. 5's to glance and 6's to pen

(your math ignores glancing stuff to death, which the pasquisher manages quite often.)

TheCaptain wrote:(your math ignores glancing stuff to death, which the pasquisher manages quite often.)

How often? What is your definition of "quite"?

 TheCaptain wrote:

Pask's Special Rule makes the main gun S9. 5's to glance and 6's to pen

(your math ignores glancing stuff to death, which the pasquisher manages quite often.)

You shouldn't be using melta and lascannons to glance things to death. There are cheaper ways to do it than 220 points.

 Testify wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

Pask's Special Rule makes the main gun S9. 5's to glance and 6's to pen

(your math ignores glancing stuff to death, which the pasquisher manages quite often.)

You shouldn't be using melta and lascannons to glance things to death. There are cheaper ways to do it than 220 points.

Didn't say I was, but it still does put glances on targets. Vanquisher (like every anti-tank gun) got buffed with the new glance-rule. It's not much, but it can kill stuff a bit more now.

The argument wasn't that it's the best HS choice, or the most point-effective, but it's definitely viable if you want a long-range tank killer. See my previous post; the strength of it is it's AV and range, not its killing power (which is good, though not remarkable).

It's the same argument as 3xAC HWS vs. a 3xAC Infantry blob. Sure, the HWS is cheaper, but the blob will stick around longer.

Vanquisher has the same problems it had in 5th.

The only way to make it remotely viable is with Pask, but at that point, it just becomes too expensive. Plain and simple, its just not cost efficient. Your heavy slots (and points) are better spent on far more efficient units.

Too expensive, too unreliable, does not produce results.

I still say 2 devil dogs. 240 points, and you get 2 blasts, 24" range S8 AP1 melta.

The Vanquisher is extremely specialized, and only mediocre at it's specialty.

The devil dogs tank like like beasts, and S8 AP1 blasts have all kinds of good applications. Yes, they are "only" armor 12/12/10, but in a vehicle heavy army, they often go unnoticed too long.

-Matt

Thanks for all the posts dakka!

However, I hate to be a rotten cop and remind you all fine gentleman but this thread was created to discuss the usefulness, tactics, uses and utility of Vanquishers, not to discuss what other better choices are availble.

They're not useful. They are massively inefficient.

Diesel Stradin wrote:this thread was created to discuss the usefulness

It's useless.

Diesel Stradin wrote:tactics

Squat. Point. Shoot.

Diesel Stradin wrote:uses and utility of Vanquishers

See #1.

 Ailaros wrote:

Diesel Stradin wrote:this thread was created to discuss the usefulness

It's useless.

Idk man, I still have to disagree. An AV14 BS3 72" range meltagun isn't useless; it's not very useful, but not useless.

I'd say it clocks in at like...a 5/10 on a scale of usefulness. Sure; it can do something, but you shouldn't be buying it if you've got that many points and need anti-tank.

fine.

relatively useless.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Diesel Stradin wrote:this thread was created to discuss the usefulness

It's useless.

Idk man, I still have to disagree. An AV14 BS3 72" range meltagun isn't useless; it's not very useful, but not useless.

I'd say it clocks in at like...a 5/10 on a scale of usefulness. Sure; it can do something, but you shouldn't be buying it if you've got that many points and need anti-tank.

What sort of list would you have that would you would to be spending those sorts of points on it?