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 Desubot wrote:
Why not use the flamer template for determining hits then use diminishing damage and ap as more targets are hit

(Template to represent ease of hits, and spread [it doesn’t have to be super realistic and for all we know they can be using super powered sawed off shotguns] as well over watch suppression fire which will always at least hit once)

So closest takes st 6ap 4, next is st 5, ap 5 and so on.

mind ya this is all for fun

edit: also why take slugs when your basicly shooting armor piercing gernades from your rifles. ( would be cool if space marine buck shots used power fist tech)

Because that's not how shotguns work.
Really, does no one play any FPS games, or even better, use a shotgun irl?
Because they do not work like that. They do not shoot a cloud of lead that engulfs entire squads.

A "super" sawn off would be more like

8" S5 AP6 Pistol, twinlinked.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Why not use the flamer template for determining hits then use diminishing damage and ap as more targets are hit

(Template to represent ease of hits, and spread [it doesn’t have to be super realistic and for all we know they can be using super powered sawed off shotguns] as well over watch suppression fire which will always at least hit once)

So closest takes st 6ap 4, next is st 5, ap 5 and so on.

mind ya this is all for fun

edit: also why take slugs when your basicly shooting armor piercing gernades from your rifles. ( would be cool if space marine buck shots used power fist tech)

Because that's not how shotguns work.
Really, does no one play any FPS games, or even better, use a shotgun irl?
Because they do not work like that. They do not shoot a cloud of lead that engulfs entire squads.

A "super" sawn off would be more like

8" S5 AP6 Pistol, twinlinked.

Essentially it’s a claymore mine attached to a stock kind of gun rather than a shot gun that we know today as like I said there is no point in taking a shot gun to a grenade launcher flight really. The only time they would need to take a shotgun is when clearing rooms and trenches and when not wanting to burn everything for collateral control, at least that could be the justification of taking it instead of just taking standard flamers.

I love all the suggestions of rending, str 5 or 6, etc.

A rending Str 4 AP - shotgun could blow up the standard Space Marine APC.

A str 6 AP - shotgun could blow the turret off of the best infantry carrier in the galaxy.

A Str 5 AP- shotgun could blow the turret off of the standard Space Marine IFV.

EDIT:
The implication being, of course, that a shotgun is better at destroying / disabling tanks than a boltgun.

Derp.

Erm, Unit, whats your point?
A missile is S8, a tank hammer which is a missile on a pole is S10 and can be used several times.
Thats 2 lots of bad logic on 1 weapon.

And for the shotty fanatics:





Edit: For those talking about "spread" on the shotgun, watch the 1st shots of that video, you will see its actually pretty damn accurate with no spread.

If you guys want a weapon that work anything like a shotgun that's fine. But why call it a shotgun?

Why not just use shotguns for the model and come up with something random. Like mini grenade launchers or some kind of canister launcher.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
If you guys want a weapon that work anything like a shotgun that's fine. But why call it a shotgun?

Why not just use shotguns for the model and come up with something random. Like mini grenade launchers or some kind of canister launcher.

You mean a "Bolter"?

 Mahtamori wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
If you guys want a weapon that work anything like a shotgun that's fine. But why call it a shotgun?

Why not just use shotguns for the model and come up with something random. Like mini grenade launchers or some kind of canister launcher.

You mean a "Bolter"?

I know the Honor Guard Auxilary Grenade Launcher. Any scout can trade in his bolter for 15 points...

I do agree the best way to represent the spread is by using the twin-linked special rule. Hollywood often portrays firearms poorly, especially shotguns.

So, here goes:

Marine shotgun:
Str: 4 Ap 6, Assault 2, twin-linked. Range: 12"

Guard shotgun:
Str: 3, Ap -, Assault 2, twin-linked. Range: 12"


And perhaps an additional upgrade for 10 points:
10 points..............................Ripper ammunition.

Ripper ammunition grants all members in the squad with a shotgun the rending special rule.


There you go: a shotgun.

Just a thought....would the Shred rule not be more appropriate than the Rending rule for a shotgun.

In my experience the idea that its power will make it more likely to wound but not necessarily magically armor piercing

Marine shotgun:
Str: 4 Ap 6, Assault 2, Range: 12"
Twin Linked within 6 inches, or when the enemy is charging
Fires at normal ballistic skill during Overwatch
Shred (Not sure about this..)

Guard shotgun:
Str: 3, Ap -, Assault 2, Range: 12"
Twin Linked within 6 inches, or when the enemy is charging
Fires at normal ballistic skill during Overwatch
Shred

To me shotguns are just fine the way they are... The only thing that would make sense to me is give them the wallof death rule, i mean think about it, shotguns would be easy to pull up and shoot while someones charging at you, and also think about a whole squad of guys pumping sprays of shots at you. they'll hit something

Wall of death is actually a much better change in my opinion than many of these; D3 automatic hits when being assaulted... Would really exemplify them!

 kestril wrote:

And perhaps an additional upgrade for 10 points:
10 points..............................Ripper ammunition.

Ripper ammunition grants all members in the squad with a shotgun the rending special rule.

No. I don't get why so many people want to give shotguns rending. It isn't fluffy, it isn't logical, and it isn't balanced. They are meant to be short range assault weapons, not a gun that you can expect to slaughter terminators with, not a gun that can punch through the frontal armour of a chimera. Also ripper guns are just giant shotguns, they don't have special ammunition, it is just a scaled up Pancor Jackhammer, a ripper pistol is presumably said gun shrunk down to the size of a pistol.

Buttons wrote:
It isn't fluffy, it isn't logical, and it isn't balanced.

Neither is 40k.

Shotgun: Strength 3, AP -, Rending. Been using it as a house rule for years. (we just didn't apply the rending to vehicles)

 Jackal wrote:
Erm, Unit, whats your point?
A missile is S8, a tank hammer which is a missile on a pole is S10 and can be used several times.
Thats 2 lots of bad logic on 1 weapon.

Yeah, but you are also talking about Orks, who through the combined power of stubbornness, stupidity, and space magic can glue a couple of tin cans, a hockey stick, and a box of cheerios together and suddenly have a working gun. The only acknowledged Ork tech makes to the laws of physics is to flip them off and shoot at them as it blazes past on a red-painted shopping kart.

 DeffDred wrote:

Buttons wrote:
It isn't fluffy, it isn't logical, and it isn't balanced.

Neither is 40k.

Shotgun: Strength 3, AP -, Rending. Been using it as a house rule for years. (we just didn't apply the rending to vehicles)

Even then, it is too much for what it costs (nothing). Hell if you are shooting at an MEQ half your wounds will be rending. You are arbitrarily giving a weapon the rending special rule for no reason. Why not give ripper guns rending since Ogryn could use a boost? Why not do the same with hot-shot lasguns since storm troopers are overpriced? The whole point of guard shotguns are short range lasguns that you can assault with, nothing more. You don't take shotguns to be good at shooting stuff with, you don't use it to match marines in firepower, you use it so that if you ever need to assault something you can shoot it and soften it up first.

i didnt think it would be long before someone posted the fps russia video.

and dont forget to add rules for dragons breath ammunition either

Buttons wrote:

 kestril wrote:

And perhaps an additional upgrade for 10 points:
10 points..............................Ripper ammunition.

Ripper ammunition grants all members in the squad with a shotgun the rending special rule.

No. I don't get why so many people want to give shotguns rending. It isn't fluffy, it isn't logical, and it isn't balanced. They are meant to be short range assault weapons, not a gun that you can expect to slaughter terminators with, not a gun that can punch through the frontal armour of a chimera. Also ripper guns are just giant shotguns, they don't have special ammunition, it is just a scaled up Pancor Jackhammer, a ripper pistol is presumably said gun shrunk down to the size of a pistol.

In my suggestionThe ripper ammunition was meant to represent shotugn slugs in a simple way, like Marbo's Pistol. I chose the prefix "ripper" due to it fitting into the codex.

Underpriced? Lets look at some math:

With the weapons twin-linked, 1/6 of all the shots that hit (3/4), will rend. This results in a 0.125 chance that a single shot will rend. This results in 2.5 rending wounds in a volley of 20 shots. Hardly half.

Without twin linking, only (1/6) of all the shots that hit (1/2) will rend, so there will be .083% chance of a single shot rending. So, there will be 1.66 rending wounds in a volley of 20 shots.

Now looking at the math, 10 points for both twin-linking AND rending is a bit underpriced. Perhaps this:

For 10 points, the squad may take............Ripper ammunition.

Ripper ammunition changes the weapon to the following profile:

Shotgun: Str: 3 AP: - Range 12" Assault 2, rending.

Even then, it is too much for what it costs (nothing). Hell if you are shooting at an MEQ half your wounds will be rending. You are arbitrarily giving a weapon the rending special rule for no reason. Why not give ripper guns rending since Ogryn could use a boost? Why not do the same with hot-shot lasguns since storm troopers are overpriced? The whole point of guard shotguns are short range lasguns that you can assault with, nothing more. You don't take shotguns to be good at shooting stuff with, you don't use it to match marines in firepower, you use it so that if you ever need to assault something you can shoot it and soften it up first.

10 points is the cost of a melta. 1 rending hit per 20 shots is the same effectiveness as a melta. Same effectiveness = same cost.

I don't offer suggestions to "fix" other units because that's not the point of this thread (duh). I while I agree that normal shotgun rounds should not have the rending rule, some variety is hardly a bad thing. I'd enjoy kitting a squad out with melta + rippershotguns to give them a bit more flexibility and synergy. As of right now, with the change to the assault rules and overwatch, there is very little reason to take shotguns, as there are very rare cases I'd wish to assault as guard. Rending helps.

@Kestril

Please read and respond very carefully: If you wound on 5+, and rend on 6+, how many of your respective wounds will be rending, relative to the whole?

I'll give you a hint: It involves half.

As to your rambling nonsense on giving everyone in the crew a chance to be a melta as the 'same effect' as a melta - this is absurd. Perhaps you should also think beyond the level of statistical averages, into the realm of "Will this be overpowered if...?" - Case in point, if I had the option to give all my weapons in a unit rending for 10 points, I would do it regardless every time no matter what forever. Fire Warriors with rending? Take it. Orks with rending? You betcha. Guardsmen? Righto! If your rolls are even slightly skewed towards better than normal, you suddenly end up with 3 or 4 unsavable wounds on top of your normal load. And this is unacceptable. There's an actual decent reason that rending isn't bandied about willy-nilly: Because it is powerful as all hell. The TLAC is the best-costed tank popper in the game from 12.01" outward, as well as being great at antimeq, antiteq, antihorde...

Shotguns with rending - even at S3 - now areantimeq, antihorde, anti-MC... and have the ability to damage transports (wtf?!)

 kestril wrote:

10 points is the cost of a melta. 1 rending hit per 20 shots is the same effectiveness as a melta. Same effectiveness = same cost.

I don't offer suggestions to "fix" other units because that's not the point of this thread (duh). I while I agree that normal shotgun rounds should not have the rending rule, some variety is hardly a bad thing. I'd enjoy kitting a squad out with melta + rippershotguns to give them a bit more flexibility and synergy. As of right now, with the change to the assault rules and overwatch, there is very little reason to take shotguns, as there are very rare cases I'd wish to assault as guard. Rending helps.

That second part you quoted had little to do with your post. It was in response to a guy that gives shotguns rending for free.

I read a lot about shotgun these weeks, and i wonder :

Str 4 ; AP - ; 12" ; Asssault 1 ; Twin-linked ; Pest-control.

Pest-control : Can shoot in moving phase (or +2 in initiative ?) when target at half-range or less.

Fluff : This weapon was created by (for ?) the Deep Wyverns as a meaning to fight in heavily clustered environments, like cities, bases or caves, against ambushing xenos.
The Boltshot (weapon name) fast and accurate response give the Marine a good chance to take out ana ttacker who will had the first strike otherwise.
However, the very short range and slow rate of fire limit heavily it's use in open terrain, and Deep Wyvern squad pay attention to have enough of them equipped with the ubiquitous Bolter, in case. A squad unable to cope with unexpected situation is an eliminated squad. An eliminated squad will save human lives no more.

Not knowing a whole lot about IG and the 40k purpose of a shotgun, I'd say their broken from a fluff standpoint at least. I don't think rending would be appropriate, but maybe some sort of close range upgrade, like:

12" s3 ap- assault 2, twin-linked
6" s4 ap6 assault 2
Wall of death

Make it Range 12" S2 AP- "special use template" 1

Just use the circle at the end of the flamer template (best done with the green ones) as a 'blast marker' without a center hole. the difference being you place the central circle completely over your targets base, limiting placement between models base to a minimum. Roll to hit as normal, if it missed then no hit is scored. if it hits then everyone under the 'template' is hit by a S2 hit.

Or use solid slugs at Range 18" S3 AP- Assault 1

SM shotguns remain the same as they use man stopper rounds. Problem solved.

Why does everyone say that shotguns should use a flamer template? they spray, they don't pool fire.

If anything, it should be a short ranged weapon with a bonus like twin-linking or +1 BS.

Most shotguns have about the same range as a pistol. However, they are far superior, in terms of damage, to pistols at close range. People use breeching shotguns for a reason, and they aren't just blowing open wood doors.

Something I did for shotguns was this:
Shotgun (Scatter)...........12”.......5...6...Assault 2
Or (Slug)..........................18”.......6...5...Heavy 1

The firer must choose which type to use before firing each shooting phase. Shotguns gain +1 S and AP if within 6” of the target unit.

 McNinja wrote:
Most shotguns have about the same range as a pistol. However, they are far superior, in terms of damage, to pistols at close range. People use breeching shotguns for a reason, and they aren't just blowing open wood doors.

Something I did for shotguns was this:
Shotgun (Scatter)...........12”.......5...6...Assault 2
Or (Slug)..........................18”.......6...5...Heavy 1

The firer must choose which type to use before firing each shooting phase. Shotguns gain +1 S and AP if within 6” of the target unit.

Doesn't that mean then, that a Shotgun (using buckshot, no more!) can one hit kill a sentinal?
That just doesn't seem right.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Most shotguns have about the same range as a pistol. However, they are far superior, in terms of damage, to pistols at close range. People use breeching shotguns for a reason, and they aren't just blowing open wood doors.

Something I did for shotguns was this:
Shotgun (Scatter)...........12”.......5...6...Assault 2
Or (Slug)..........................18”.......6...5...Heavy 1

The firer must choose which type to use before firing each shooting phase. Shotguns gain +1 S and AP if within 6” of the target unit.

Doesn't that mean then, that a Shotgun (using buckshot, no more!) can one hit kill a sentinal?
That just doesn't seem right.

This also means, of course, that a shotgun firing buckshot can blow the turret off of an infantry fighting vehicle, or mangle the drive train beyond repair.

I might see if they made rules that decreased damage the further away the target stood. Though I do not think it would happen as dramatically as some are proposing. I decided to look up which weapons delivered strength four damage. Bolt weapons, so shots that detonate inside the target, Frag Missile blasts, so freaking explosions, and Heavy stubbers, or lets just say large caliber high velocity machine guns. If you want to claim that a shotgun has strength 4 at any range then I believe you should argue why it is doing as much damage as these weapons I have listed.

In defense of why it is an assault 2 weapon. Shooting in 40k represents well aimed shots. That is why Assault Rifles have the rapid fire rule; It takes longer to aim further away. Shotguns do not have the range of assault rifles. If a soldier in the M41 wields a shot gun he is pumping off rounds at the same rate as a lasgun or a bolter against enemies within 12" and because of the scatter effect he can afford to move forward and shoot while running (hence the reason it is an assault weapon not just a half range rapid fire lasgun)

One idea that I think would be fun to pursue for the shotgun is special ammunition. I have read some of the other posts concerning it and I have thought it sounded like a fun idea. I am thinking rounds that have demon killing effects, or dazing effects (usually we are going to charge in the next phase anyway, this would be cool)

Either way I like the way that shotguns work in this game and I buy them for my army and use them to great effectiveness. I would advocate any rule that made the game more cool, and more fun. Those are my two criteria.