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You can ignore them in most games. The Scourging they count as scoring units so they have to be delt with in one way or anouther. It is very hard to get them close enough though as you mesure from the hull to the objective. They also can't end thier move with thier base within 1" of an enemy model.

For the model maning the quad gun, remember that it uses whatever special rules that the model firing hit has. It comes in handy with models that can get twinlinked, tank hunter or some other nice little shooting buff.

jcressell wrote:
Ageis Defence line with a quad gun will cut through flyers.

You really think so? Because it can only fire at one flyer a turn, and struggles against AV12, which as I said before, are the flyers to beat. Not only that but most flyers can take it out with one round of shooting, so if in isolation it will take out maybe one flyer, and then die.

No offense, but you really have to be naive, or be on the wrong track for the conversation if you think a lone ADL is enough to do the job; by on the wrong track, I mean thinking about 1-2 flyers, but realistically you need to worrying about 3+, Ravens are the only thing that will stay in pairs in competitive lists, the rest will go more.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

jcressell wrote:
Ageis Defence line with a quad gun will cut through flyers.

You really think so? Because it can only fire at one flyer a turn, and struggles against AV12, which as I said before, are the flyers to beat. Not only that but most flyers can take it out with one round of shooting, so if in isolation it will take out maybe one flyer, and then die.

No offense, but you really have to be naive, or be on the wrong track for the conversation if you think a lone ADL is enough to do the job; by on the wrong track, I mean thinking about 1-2 flyers, but realistically you need to worrying about 3+, Ravens are the only thing that will stay in pairs in competitive lists, the rest will go more.

^ this.

The quad gun is a supplement for your anti-air. It is a gun-emplacement, 2 wounds, and an upgrade to a fortification. Your dedicated AA should be either hydras or vendettas (Or HSmissile-valks in a pinch).

Hydras trouble is no interceptor+delicate. You just need to take enough of them. If you have a few hydras, they'll pull a lot of fire away from your transports and other AV12, letting them sit back getting shot up and tagging flyers, while your forward element gets upfield relatively unscathed.

Vendetta is really strong; I don't think its a big deal that everyone is taking it. It's an auto-include now, due to the flyer propagation; just like most balanced/good guard lists should include tanks or artillery. And how everyone swears by the CCS; they're strong choice, arguably our Codex's strength, as much as sternguard are C:SM's strength. Vendetta's aren't some (beginning of 6th fad), they're just an insanely good entry in the dex.

-Cappie Cap M'Captain

Personally I find the only realiable defence against flyers (for Nids at least) to be psykers. IG can't spam them though.

As for Vendetta/Valk spam, they are EXTREAMLY vulnerable to psyker spam. One of my first games I dropped a squadron of Valks on turn 2 with OM and a little shooting.

Not sure how other armys will deal with AV12+ flyers, but for Nids right now it is psykers, ILC or Hive Guard that have PE on them from a Hive Tyrant.

rydog708 wrote:
Flyers generally don't stick around long from what I've read, how much damage do they do? Compared to their 5e skimmer selves at least. Can they be ignored in favor of ground targets?

The thing about flyers is that they can alpha strike the stuff that can hurt them. If they are taken in numbers they can stick around longer than you might think. Flyers have real firepower. They can easily table non tourney foot lists.

The following video was linked in another thread.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dS77v_jx5gU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

If your opponent is not bringing many flyers then you can ignore them. However if they bring 6+, then I think that you have to deal with them.

Scatter Laser War Walkers put 1.33 glances or better against AV11 for 180 pts. Shurikan Cannon War Walkers, Purgation Squads, and Lootas are the only ones more efficient.

I've found in my games, because the fliers get the alpha-strike, you generally have to really load up on counters or just ignore them. Playing against IG and GK armies frequently, I have the best luck not wasting my time hoping for 6's and instead just kill their ground troops.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Personally I find the only realiable defence against flyers (for Nids at least) to be psykers. IG can't spam them though.

They can just a tiny bit, though. A primaris psyker that's kept his codex powers and takes a bring it down order shoots 2D6 S6 shots twin-linked at BS4. It occasionally shows up with AP1 or 2 to boot.

Although I'm curious. I didn't spend all that long looking at psyker powers - which ones are the anti-flier ones?

Gloomfang wrote:For the model maning the quad gun, remember that it uses whatever special rules that the model firing hit has. It comes in handy with models that can get twinlinked, tank hunter or some other nice little shooting buff.

'Cause twin-linking an alreayd twin-linked gun is handy

Pretty sure there's no model in the game that has twin-linked as a special rule anyway.

 Gloomfang wrote:
It is very hard to get them close enough though as you mesure from the hull to the objective.

Almost impossible, really. The flying base is more than 3" tall and (IIRC) there aren't any flyers with hull parts significantly lower than the mounting point for the base, so the only way to get any part of the model within 3" is the rare scenario where the objective is above ground level but close enough to ground level terrain that the flyer can stick a wing over and get within 3". However, the vast majority of the time flyers will never be able to claim or contest objectives.

 Ailaros wrote:
A primaris psyker that's kept his codex powers and takes a bring it down order shoots 2D6 S6 shots twin-linked at BS4. It occasionally shows up with AP1 or 2 to boot.

Err, how are you getting AP1/2 from a power with fixed AP5?

Although I'm curious. I didn't spend all that long looking at psyker powers - which ones are the anti-flier ones?

Objuration Mechanicum is the only one, other than the obvious shooting attacks that give you a good volume of fire. Some people might argue that the "draw a line" powers can hit flyers, but that depends on a pretty stupid claim that drawing a line to hit a flyer is not "a shot resolved at" a flyer so that the "snap shots only" rule doesn't apply, and the assumption that GW won't FAQ that a line weapon is a form of template weapon that can't hit flyers at all (like it was in the pre-6th flyer rules).

Oh, I was conflating it with the PBS. Forget that part.

It's still 2D6 BS4 S6 shots that can be twin-linked.

 Ailaros wrote:
It's still 2D6 BS4 S6 shots that can be twin-linked.

Where are you getting twin-linked from? BiD is worse than just buying a second psyker, and you can't take prescience if you keep your codex powers.

Why would you bother with a 1 in 6 chance for prescience when you can BiD? Furthermore, what are you shooting at the flier if you don't have lightning arc?

In any case, 2x PP's may technically be better against fliers, but a CCS+PP is way, way better over all. It's only a small loss in the number of hits you have and in return you get the ability to twin-link something else, or force rerolls on cover saves or do anything else the orders get you. Plus the CCS can also take weapons as well 2x PPs are nearly the same price as a PP and a 4x plasma CCS. I don't think the latter is really much worse against fliers, while also being useful against more things that aren't fliers.

 Ailaros wrote:
Why would you bother with a 1 in 6 chance for prescience when you can BiD?

Because prescience is the primaris power that you can automatically take?

In any case, 2x PP's may technically be better against fliers, but a CCS+PP is way, way better over all. It's only a small loss in the number of hits you have and in return you get the ability to twin-link something else, or force rerolls on cover saves or do anything else the orders get you. Plus the CCS can also take weapons as well 2x PPs are nearly the same price as a PP and a 4x plasma CCS. I don't think the latter is really much worse against fliers, while also being useful against more things that aren't fliers.

I'm not saying that dual primaris psyker is better than taking a CCS (or two) in general, just that spending BiD on the primaris is really not efficient, especially since you have to spend BiD before you find out if the psyker's 2D6 shots is going to end up decent or pathetic. I guess I can imagine scenarios where you'd want to do it because it's the best you've got, but designing your list with the intent to do it?

Gloomfang and Peregrine you do not measure up and down every distance, the game is not resolved on a 3 dimensional plane of existence. By that logic there are certain weapons that could never hit flyers, hell, you could model your flyer to be out of range of most weapons that way. Similarly you would have to measure your flyer's movement up and down for every obstacle they go over that way. The only times you measure things as such are when it is specifically stated, such as multi-level ruins. Otherwise it has never been done like this in the rules, and still isn't.

And Ailaros, where did you get the idea that Prescience has a 1 in 6 chance of being taken?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Gloomfang and Peregrine you do not measure up and down every distance, the game is not resolved on a 3 dimensional plane of existence. By that logic there are certain weapons that could never hit flyers, hell, you could model your flyer to be out of range of most weapons that way. Similarly you would have to measure your flyer's movement up and down for every obstacle they go over that way. The only times you measure things as such are when it is specifically stated, such as multi-level ruins. Otherwise it has never been done like this in the rules, and still isn't.

What part of "measure to the hull" is so hard to understand? And where does it say that you ignore the vertical distance when measuring between two locations in 40k?

And no, modeling for advantage is not an issue, since there's nothing in the rules that allows you to use anything other than the standard base the model comes with. Having your flyer automatically be out of range is never going to be an issue, because (IIRC) every single weapon in the game has a maximum range that is longer than the height of a flying base.

I meant the other one. What's the random one where you get to reroll hits AND wounds?

In any case, my other point still stands. If you're abandoning your codex powers to get rerolls, what are you shooting at the fliers?

I think the power you are refering to only effects the psyker himself.

Peregrine wrote:And where does it say that you ignore the vertical distance when measuring between two locations in 40k?

This is one of those cases where I'm trying more to find where the rule was changed, as the rules for measuring haven't changed (except for pre-measuring) and things such as Ravens were often used to contest objectives late game in 5th. So what rule changed to stop them doing that now? And I know for all other distances they tend to be ruins, so we play that exact as it actually tells you in the rules to specifically measure between floors.

Peregrine wrote:And no, modeling for advantage is not an issue, since there's nothing in the rules that allows you to use anything other than the standard base the model comes with..

This on the other hand doesn't exist as far as I've ever seen. I've seen players from all over post their flyers with custom bases and stems of different length on the net, mostly from tourney reports, and GW often say they encourage players to customise their models (there's even been some on their blog). So I'm not seeing where you are getting the rights to tell people they can't do that.

 Ailaros wrote:
I meant the other one. What's the random one where you get to reroll hits AND wounds?

That would be precognition, but it only applies to the psyker (not even the psyker's unit). Since trying to get it takes away your only meaningful weapon (lightning arc), it might as well not exist.

In any case, my other point still stands. If you're abandoning your codex powers to get rerolls, what are you shooting at the fliers?

Err, wasn't that what I said? You can't take prescience to get a (useful) twin-linked weapon from your psyker.


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 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Again, another rule that has never been and still isn't as far as I can see. Can you point this out in the rulebook? Considering the amount of custom flying bases using different types of rods of different lengths that you can see in the plogs here alone, not to mention elsewhere, I'm sure all those people won't mind not using their armies just because you said they can't. Unlike Fantasy there's no rules saying you have to use a model on the base it comes with. People use custom bases and custom models all the time. It is encouraged by GW even.

Where does it say that you CAN change the standard model and its base? Unless you can show me a rule that lets you do it, you have to use the model exactly as designed by GW, with full WYSIWYG in effect.

And sure, this is a rule that everyone ignores in the interest of allowing cool conversions/scenic bases/etc, but they only ignore it on the assumption that you don't exploit their generosity to gain an in-game advantage. If you try modeling for advantage, congratulations, we're now playing strictly by the rules and your models aren't legal.

And all that aside, the base isn't the issue, the stem is the issue, and the stem is neither part of the model nor the base for game terms. So even if your rule existed, it wouldn't disallow someone using a custom stem (which people already have been doing for years even at all the big tournies, as stated above).

Err, lol? Somehow the stem, which is part of the multi-part base which supports the model, and is sold as a complete two-part "flying base", isn't part of the "base"?

And again, you can usually get away with using a custom stem as long as it keeps the dimensions roughly the same as the GW base. If you try to gain an advantage by changing the length, I am under no obligation to allow your model.

I'm still not buying the whole measure up and down thing, since it was never done before, and nothing has changed in the rules in that regard.

Then show me where it actually says that. I don't care what it used to be (or didn't) in previous editions of the game, the question is about 6th edition, and the rules say nothing about "ignore vertical distance when measuring between two points".

Otherwise you have silly things, such as a Necron Overlord on a Barge not being able to sweep attack a Defiler or Dreadknight because the models are 5" tall or more, meaning at least a 13" move is needed. I've played in a few countries and I've never seen things played like this.

This really isn't complicated. Skimmers ignore things in their path, so you don't measure over the obstacles. You only measure between the starting and ending point, which will only include a vertical component if you land on a hill.

 felixcat wrote:
Turns out Mawlocs can hit flyers. Golden Throne FaQ ruled in their favor which bodes well that GW might follow with their FaQ. They do get their jink save though.

Anyone seen mega shark vs giant octopus?
the plane scene?

I can just see this guardsman looking out the window of a valk....
"OH MY GAWD"

Primaris Psyker cannot take Divination. He gets Biomancy, Pyromancy, Telepathy, and Telekinesis.

Peregrine wrote:Where does it say that you CAN change the standard model and its base? Unless you can show me a rule that lets you do it, you have to use the model exactly as designed by GW, with full WYSIWYG in effect.

WYSIWYG stands for What You See Is What You Get, not Use Model Exactly As From GW, and in fact the rules on WYSIWYG are exactly what allow such conversions etc. A Storm Raven on a custom bases with a longer stem is still a Storm Raven, and still fulfils the requirements for WYSIWYG, so no, you are not breaking the rules, and no, your models are not illegal. Such variety is encouraged by GW often and is why their rules have been getting more streamlined, as variety is what makes the game tick. Though call me an ass for assuming, but it seems to me in a lot of these discussion you just want people to play your rules. Maybe such an assumption is out of line, if so I apologise, but that's just how you have been coming off in my opinion. Then again, such things happen when you break down the discussion and realise that the topic is just a game, and so what's legal and illegal are relatively down to the players, and nobody can be forced to do anything. Then again, that's variety again isn't it?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Gloomfang wrote:For the model maning the quad gun, remember that it uses whatever special rules that the model firing hit has. It comes in handy with models that can get twinlinked, tank hunter or some other nice little shooting buff.

'Cause twin-linking an alreayd twin-linked gun is handy

Pretty sure there's no model in the game that has twin-linked as a special rule anyway.

I was talking more generaly. Twinlinking as an ability is good for the ILC and some things like orders can make them twinlinked.

You're missing the point here. I have nothing against conversions, variety, whatever you want to call it. I like it when people do awesome things to customize their models. However, none of these things are strictly legal, they're exceptions to the rules that we approve of as long as people are reasonable about it. It's very simple:

Modeling your Stormraven on a taller base to make it look awesome, and being willing to count it as having the standard height if it ever becomes an issue = good.

Modeling your Stormraven on a taller base to put it out of range of your opponent's guns = bad.

Any reasonable person will allow the former, but we are under no obligation to allow an exception to rules for the latter.

 Peregrine wrote:

rydog708 wrote:
Also, what races have the best fliers

Top three:

1) IG. Excellent flyers that fill any role you want: AA, anti-tank, anti-horde, transport, whatever. And you can take them in both heavy and fast slots, so you have a lot of flexibility compared to armies that have to spend all of a particular slot to get a decent amount of them.

2) Necrons. Cheap and efficient, and really good at deploying infantry where and when they need to be (I hear claiming objectives is important). The only reason they're second to IG is that, while they're very good at their specific role, Necrons flyers are limited in their versatility. If you want something besides mass autocannon fire or the occasional tank killer shot you're going to have to settle for ground units.

3) Eldar. The raw firepower/armor numbers aren't as good as IG or Necrons, but vector dancer is extremely useful and a 2+ evasion save means you might actually survive to come back for another pass. And, while you don't have as many options as IG, at least they occupy different FOC slots. The main issue is they're probably not awesome enough to offset the weakness of the rest of the Eldar army.


After that, it's pretty even. Everyone gets a decent flyer or two, but none of them are so amazing that they'd take priority over other factors in picking an army.

and are there any units without skyfire that can reliably take them down?

Sure. Any unit can take down a flyer if you spend enough points on it.

Now, if you want to know if there's a reliable and cost-effective unit that can do it without skyfire, the answer is no. The simple fact is that any non-skyfire unit is going to cost way more than doing it the right way. And if you go up against serious flyerspam, that inefficiency means you won't have enough AA units to handle everything.

What Eldar Flyer, or are you playing FW?

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
What Eldar Flyer, or are you playing FW?

Nightwing and Phoenix. Both of them are solid units, in their own ways.


(And yes, I play with FW stuff, like GW's rules say you can.)

 Peregrine wrote:

(And yes, I play with FW stuff, like GW's rules say you can.)

I fear you mentioning that may turn this into another FW flame thread.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Why would you bother with a 1 in 6 chance for prescience when you can BiD?

Because prescience is the primaris power that you can automatically take?

Because prescience is the primaris power that you CAN'T automatically take? Literally a 0/100000000 chance of getting it with a Primaris Psyker.


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 Doomhunter wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

(And yes, I play with FW stuff, like GW's rules say you can.)

I fear you mentioning that may turn this into another FW flame thread.

Ew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
You're missing the point here. I have nothing against conversions, variety, whatever you want to call it. I like it when people do awesome things to customize their models. However, none of these things are strictly legal, they're exceptions to the rules that we approve of as long as people are reasonable about it. It's very simple:

Modeling your Stormraven on a taller base to make it look awesome, and being willing to count it as having the standard height if it ever becomes an issue = good.

Modeling your Stormraven on a taller base to put it out of range of your opponent's guns = bad.

Any reasonable person will allow the former, but we are under no obligation to allow an exception to rules for the latter.

Except for scratchbuilds. IIRC, ork codex encourages scratchbuilds for things like looted wagons and stuff; I don't see why you couldn't put it on a flying base, and call it a hovertank with a high altitude. As long as it still follows the movement and shooting rules, you still have to measure to the hull of vehicles and stuff.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
What Eldar Flyer, or are you playing FW?

Nightwing and Phoenix. Both of them are solid units, in their own ways.


(And yes, I play with FW stuff, like GW's rules say you can.)

My group still does not play with it because of availability. Basically some people in our group would be able to afford a lot of FW stuff and some would be able to do none. Since that is lame, we choose to have no FW special stuff (though models can "count as" if they want). This means I am just going to wait for the GW Eldar Flyer.

Edit: Though you got me looking into them, and they are quite awesome. <.<' Maybe I'll see if I can run them. XD