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Read the entry. it says The Storm Talon changes its type to Skimmer. Because it says it changes its type to skimmer means it ceases to be a flier and becomes a type: skimmer. Since that what changes to the type skimmer means.

It does not say it remains a flier.

It does not say it is a Skimmer and a flier.

It does say, the Storm Talon changes its type to Skimmer.

DE Elder wrote:
Read the entry. it says The Storm Talon changes its type to Skimmer. Because it says it changes its type to skimmer means it ceases to be a flier and becomes a type: skimmer. Since that what changes to the type skimmer means.

It does not say it remains a flier.

It does not say it is a Skimmer and a flier.

It does say, the Storm Talon changes its type to Skimmer.

Again (see my last post), who cares? Changing types does not cancel effects and it's the model, not the type, that must snap fire.

DE Elder wrote:The Storm Talon is no longer a flier, a requirement you need to evade, and a requirement you need to be to have to snap fire when you evade.

Which is why it can't go into Hover Strike mode at that time. You have to evade for a specific duration. If you are no longer a skimmer, you are no longer evading... so have broken the rule that says you evade for that specific duration.

So by RAW< you don't get the ignore the snap fire requirement... because you can't stop being an evading flier just because you want to.

@lubiak
The rule your looking for is page 81. where it says that FLIERS that evade have to fire snap shots. Fliers are not a movement type like you said, it is a unit type. The book is obvious in saying that FLIERS that evade must snap shot, not the model. So yes, I will be dancing around the RAW pole while you quote nothing to back up all of your claims. Read page 81. Read Evade. Read who evade applies to. It says fliers, not models. the Stormtalon is a flier when it chooses to evade. When it goes to Hover Strike Mode, it is no longer a flier but a skimmer.

You're so big on RAW and it being simple. Prove how simple it is using RAW.

@Insaniak

Where does it say that going to Hover Strike Mode is prevented if I evade?

DE Elder wrote:
@Insaniak

Where does it say that going to Hover Strike Mode is prevented if I evade?

SCP Yeeman wrote:Where does it say it cant stop being a flyer if it is evading?

insaniak wrote:It doesn't need to. Evade is a rule that applies specifically to Fliers. If it stops being a Flier, it therefore can't be still Evading... which it has to, until its next turn.

DE Elder wrote:
@lubiak
The rule your looking for is page 81. where it says that FLIERS that evade have to fire snap shots. Fliers are not a movement type like you said, it is a unit type. The book is obvious in saying that FLIERS that evade must snap shot, not the model. So yes, I will be dancing around the RAW pole while you quote nothing to back up all of your claims. Read page 81. Read Evade. Read who evade applies to. It says fliers, not models. the Stormtalon is a flier when it chooses to evade. When it goes to Hover Strike Mode, it is no longer a flier but a skimmer.

You're so big on RAW and it being simple. Prove how simple it is using RAW.

@Insaniak

Where does it say that going to Hover Strike Mode is prevented if I evade?

To be clear, you're looking at a 5th edition data sheet which shows the StormTalon is a vehicle with the fast and skimmer type. In 6th edition that was changed, as per the BRB, to a Flyer and a flyer only.

You need permission to lose effects. You either can't make the change to lose the effect (like Insaniak has stated), which I see, but disagree with, or you just can't lose the effect. There is absolutely no rule that I can find that allows one to ignore effects due to changing types (permissive ruleset and all).

That unit is still that unit. Its suffers its damage, it suffers its effects. I'm curious, do you think a talon in hover strike can no longer skyfire? Do you think that StormTalon the Skimmer loses the damage given to StormTalon the Flyer? The Flier on page 81 is referring to the unit and the model. The zooming flier is referring to movement effects.

There's a reason the bold type reads "an evading flyer has the jink special rule, but only snap fires next turn" not "an evading zooming flyer has the jink special rule.." One would refer to a model, the other its movement type. You MUST find a rule that allows you to ignore effects for what you so desperately want to happen. Until then, its either got to be that you simply can't hover strike, or that you must still snap fire.

BTW: Its clear you want it to be one way and won't hear any thing that anyone says against it. This makes me wonder why you even bothered to post here? However, if you insist on playing it under your house rule, to be consistent, you'll have to play that a StormTalon in HoverStrike can't skyfire and can't be moved under (since apparently no flyer rules now apply).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a slightly related side note: does anyone have the iPad Codex. I'm curious what differences (if any) it has to the WD in regards to the Stormtalon.

DE Elder wrote:
Where does it say that going to Hover Strike Mode is prevented if I evade?

If you perform a hover strike, are you still evading?

I present one question to those that believe its no longer a Flyer.


How does it go back to being a Flyer in the next movement phase without maintaining its hold to the Flyer type? Or is the model stuck in Hover mode for the rest of the game?

Xzerios wrote:
How does it go back to being a Flyer in the next movement phase without maintaining its hold to the Flyer type?

The Hover Strike rule says that it becomes a skimmer for a specific period of time. After that, you stop applying the Hover Strike rule, in which case the vehicle is no longer a skimmer.

Or is the model stuck in Hover mode for the rest of the game?

It's never in Hover mode to begin with.

Yeah, I think a lot of people are confusing (because it is so similar) Hover and Hover Strike

Hover Strike makes the vehicle stay still and change type to Skimmer. So there is argument that it cannot be required to snap fire as it is not a flyer type any longer

However as Insaniak (I think) pointed out more than once - you HAVE to evade for a full game turn, meaning you cannot choose to break this rule as you have no permission to break Evade to go into Hover Strike

I disagree that you can't Hover Strike the next turn. I do agree, however, that you would gain no benefit from doing so.

Evade is a special ability granted to Zooming Flyers. It has two effects: 1.) You gain Jink until the end of your next turn. 2.) You must fire snapshots until the end of your next turn.

Hover / Hover Strike are specific abilities that are used in the controlling player's turn that changes the model's behavior through specific permission to do so and nothing in the current ruleset specifies otherwise. When Evade was used, you were a Zooming Flyer. You used the special ability granted to you at the time and gained the effects which last for a specific duration. There is nothing that suggests that those effects either disappear or override other rules in the game other than: gaining jink, must fire snapshots.

So, go ahead and hover / hover strike after evading, you'll become a skimmer (note Hover Strike specifies Skimmer, not Fast Skimmer, not that it specifically matters in this case), be easier to hit, can be assaulted, and still have to fire snapshots.

So let me see if I am following this correctly:
No BS1
The model is no longer a Flyer and thus the penalty for snap fireing no longer applies as the evade (penalty) only affects Fliers

Yes BS1
The Model WAS a flier at the time it took the penalty (BS1 Drop) and is still subject to it regardless of type for the time presented in the BRB (untill its next shooting phase).

My opinion
I think the No BS1 Crowd may have a leg to stand on on this one. Although I would LIKE GW to FAQ that one into the YES BS1 crowds favor as it just makes more sence and doesnt seem as "gamey" (yes you are being gamey ). In the original posters senario I am sure it was game turning and cost his buddy a game however, in a normal situation (say turn 3 or 4) Droping down into Hover Strike in order to get a few more shots off may prove to be detramental to the Storm Talon. If they hit you once with 6's they will probably hit you AGAIN at full BS.

Id let the person do this. Cause when my turn comes, that things gettin' glassed.>:3

This is like arguing that a psyker who's gone to ground can use GoI as it's a psionic power rather than a 'move, run or assault'

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
This is like arguing that a psyker who's gone to ground can use GoI as it's a psionic power rather than a 'move, run or assault'

Andrew

He can, but thats not even close to whats being argued here.

I think Elder and Lobukia bring up solid points.

Lobukia, I would honestly have to say no, that a Storm Talon could not Skyfire at a flier because for one it doesn't have that rule as it would be a skimmer in Hover Strike. By damage, do you mean Stun/Shaken? If so, then no it wouldn't lose that damage. That effects the vehicle. The Storm Talon is still a vehicle, it doesn't lose that status.

I think te big argument here is, when a Storm Talon goes to Hover Strike, does it stay a Flier or change its type to skimmer entirely, or is it a skimmer/flier?

If it is a flier/skimmer, it would still be evading the next turn and have to Snap Shot.

If it changes it type to skimmer and only skimmer, than I would say no it does not have to Snap Shot the following turn it has to evade. I realize that Evade says until the following turn, but it is restricted to fliers. it doesn't say the vehicle, it doesn't say the unit, it says the flier, whether its zooming or not.

Next, I do not see a rule that prevents the Storm Talon from going to Hover Strike mode if it evaded. There is no restriction under Evade, Hover Strike, or the Sotrm Talon/Flier ruleset. I understand the argument that you have to keep evading for the following turn. But, what stops me from being able to go to Hover Strike? What rule is it that does it exactly? If I can't go to Hover Strike because I Evaded, then I remain a flier and have to Snap Shot. If I can go to Hover Strike, then I am able to regualrly fire because my unit type has changed to skimmer and I am no longer a flier.

Insaniak, in defense of Elder I would say no you are not evading still because skimmers cannot Evade. I am under the impression that Storm Talon changes its unit type fully from Flier to Skimmer. Skimmer cannot Evade, therefore while in Hover Strike, the Storm Talon is no longer Evading.

I guess I just don't see how the Storm Talon is effected by an ability that only effects a vehicle type he no longer is. i understand the arguement, I really do. But, I don't know what restricts the Storm Talon from going to Hover Strike the following turn. If someone says nothing, then I don't see how a skimmer is effected by Evade when Evade only effects fliers.

I agree with nosferatu.

Enemy shoots at the Stormtalon and hits. The Stormtalon "can choose to Evade until the end of [its] next turn" (page 81). On its turn, it cannot perform a Hover Strike because it will break the Evade rule.

Just like you cannot have the passengers shoot their guns, then, have the transport pop smoke. You promised you will not pop smoke or flat out when you choose to shoot the passenger's gun.

oK peeps.

Page 411 under storm talon Type its a flier and flier only. The effect that was placed on this model due to evading lasts till the end of the next turn. When you going to change to hover mode your treated as a fast skimmer. You dont loose the evade restriction when you swap over. Thats gaming the systems to get the best of both worlds. Period.

Leohart, I have a question. If you are in an open top transport like a Raider, can the passengers shoot then Flat Out with the vehicle?

Lung Pickle, please read your rules. It does not go to Hover Mode, it goes to a special Hover Strike Mode.

Hover Strike is not Hover Mode. Big difference. Hover Strike says that it changes its type to Skimmer. Hover does not say this. if it had Hover Mode, it would not lose flier status and there would not be an argument as it remains a flier. Hover Strike says it changes its type to skimmer.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
Leohart, I have a question. If you are in an open top transport like a Raider, can the passengers shoot then Flat Out with the vehicle?

No. The order you declare actions doesn't matter - if your passengers shoot you cannot flat out as that would be an illegal action.

@SCP Yeeman: Of course not. You cannot have the passenger shoots and then Flat Out. There are certain actions that puts a restriction on what you can do in the future.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
Next, I do not see a rule that prevents the Storm Talon from going to Hover Strike mode if it evaded. There is no restriction under Evade, Hover Strike, or the Sotrm Talon/Flier ruleset. I understand the argument that you have to keep evading for the following turn. But, what stops me from being able to go to Hover Strike?

What stops you is the rule that says you evade until the end of your next turn. If you choose to become a skimmer, then you are no longer evading, as you said yourself here:

Insaniak, in defense of Elder I would say no you are not evading still because skimmers cannot Evade. I am under the impression that Storm Talon changes its unit type fully from Flier to Skimmer. Skimmer cannot Evade, therefore while in Hover Strike, the Storm Talon is no longer Evading.

So if you opt to perform a Hover Strike while evading, you are no longer evading, and have therefore broken the rule that says that you evade until the end of your next turn.

You can not take a voluntary action that results in you no longer evading, because by choosing to evade, you are choosing an action that affects you for a specific duration. No rule is given that allows you to change that duration.

Fragile wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
This is like arguing that a psyker who's gone to ground can use GoI as it's a psionic power rather than a 'move, run or assault'

Andrew

He can, but thats not even close to whats being argued here.

Sorry missed a part, and then say that he can shoot because he's no longer GtG by virtue of changing location.

Andrew

jms40k wrote:
Evade is a special ability granted to Zooming Flyers. It has two effects: 1.) You gain Jink until the end of your next turn. 2.) You must fire snapshots until the end of your next turn.

More precisely, you evade until the end of your next turn, and while evading gain Jink and can fire Snap Shots only. The effect being applied until the end of the next turn is Evade, not Jink or Snap Shot... those latter two just come along with Evade.

 insaniak wrote:

jms40k wrote:
Evade is a special ability granted to Zooming Flyers. It has two effects: 1.) You gain Jink until the end of your next turn. 2.) You must fire snapshots until the end of your next turn.

More precisely, you evade until the end of your next turn, and while evading gain Jink and can fire Snap Shots only. The effect being applied until the end of the next turn is Evade, not Jink or Snap Shot... those latter two just come along with Evade.

Actually, the rules specifically say that while "evading" you have the Jink USR and can only fire snap shots. You gain these effects by choosing to evade.

That's what I just said...

Its pretty clear that the word "flier" in this context refers to the model, not the unit type. So your friend was in the wrong.

So you are saying FLIER was a Pro Noun for "THE MODEL"? I can agree with that. Other people however......

I agree with insaniak. You can't hover strike after declaring that you are evading.
So technically the person couldn't have hover struck anyway

It simply boils down to your friend and some people here are splitting hairs to break and effect that should last for one full turn. The rule stays until after the next shooting phase.

Your friend was ruled against correctly despite what you may read here to the contrary. The only thing solid that comes from here most the time is wrong interpretations, that FAQ's have shown to be incorrect. When and if this is faq'ed you will see they ruled it correctly.