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Nos I have a problem with your logic; let me give you an example:

I can choose to re-roll my run die if I have fleet.

However, Run does not give me permission to re-roll my Run die.

Therefore, in choosing to re-roll it, I have chosen to break the Run! rule.

It says in black and white that I may choose to do so, but because of your logic, I cannot choose to do so because I cannot choose to break a rule.

that is not my logic. Please dont make up arguments for me.

The logic is that you are given a defined period when you must be a zooming flyer. Choosing not to be a zooming flyer breaks this rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
that is not my logic. Please dont make up arguments for me.

The logic is that you are given a defined period when you must be a zooming flyer. Choosing not to be a zooming flyer breaks this rule.

But the Hover rule and the Hover Strike rule both allow you to change flying mode in the movement phase. They are explicitly given permission to make such a change.

A rule that grants you permission to do something should override an non explicit, implied rule that is no where in the BRB.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
that is not my logic. Please dont make up arguments for me.

The logic is that you are given a defined period when you must be a zooming flyer. Choosing not to be a zooming flyer breaks this rule.

While there is a defined period where you must be a zooming flyer, that period is "when you initially choose to Evade." Nothing about the Evade rule indicates you must remain zooming!

Since it's a permissive ruleset and the only one we know to be able to evade is a zooming flyer, switching to hover would prevent you from evading.

Come on guys, saying that by switching to hover you no longer can shoot snapfire only makes no sense at all. Not RAW and especially not RAI. If it doesn't say you CAN you just cant.

 Robbietobbie wrote:
Come on guys, saying that by switching to hover you no longer can shoot snapfire only makes no sense at all. Not RAW and especially not RAI. If it doesn't say you CAN you just cant.

The rules do say you can switch to Hover or use Hover Strike. They don't have an exception for evading. Now, a normal flyer that switches to Hover Mode after Evading still has to snap fire-- but Hover Strike turns you into a skimmer, so you don't.

I would give my opponent the benefit of the doubt and snapfire next round no matter what mode of travel I chose. It's an obvious penalty from gaining another benefit. Plus, it doesn't matter what BS a unit has if it may only snap fire next round.

40k-noob wrote:

But the Hover rule and the Hover Strike rule both allow you to change flying mode in the movement phase. They are explicitly given permission to make such a change.

A rule that grants you permission to do something should override an non explicit, implied rule that is no where in the BRB.

So do you believe that a unit in a land raider that moves on from the board edge, then disembarks should be allowed to assault? That's the same argument. You have permission to override zooming, but not permission to override evade. Just like a unit coming out of an assault vehicle has permission to assault after it disembarks, but not on the turn it comes in from reserve. You need to override two rules in this case, not just one. You are zooming and evading, not just zooming. When you guys can show us a rule that overrides the evading portion, then you're argument will have some merit and we can call for an FAQ together. As it stands you have to be zooming to evade (to initiate), and if you start zooming you must remain zooming until the period of time ends. That means you must meet all the criteria laid out to allow you to zoom, and since we had to be zooming to start the evade action, we have to maintain zooming during it.

 evildrspock wrote:
I would give my opponent the benefit of the doubt and snapfire next round no matter what mode of travel I chose. It's an obvious penalty from gaining another benefit. Plus, it doesn't matter what BS a unit has if it may only snap fire next round.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

But the Hover rule and the Hover Strike rule both allow you to change flying mode in the movement phase. They are explicitly given permission to make such a change.

A rule that grants you permission to do something should override an non explicit, implied rule that is no where in the BRB.

So do you believe that a unit in a land raider that moves on from the board edge, then disembarks should be allowed to assault? That's the same argument. You have permission to override zooming, but not permission to override evade. Just like a unit coming out of an assault vehicle has permission to assault after it disembarks, but not on the turn it comes in from reserve. You need to override two rules in this case, not just one. You are zooming and evading, not just zooming. When you guys can show us a rule that overrides the evading portion, then you're argument will have some merit and we can call for an FAQ together. As it stands you have to be zooming to evade (to initiate), and if you start zooming you must remain zooming until the period of time ends. That means you must meet all the criteria laid out to allow you to zoom, and since we had to be zooming to start the evade action, we have to maintain zooming during it.

Apples and Oranges.

"Q: Do Transports with the Assault Vehicle special rule permit their
passengers to charge on the turn they arrive from Reserve? (p33)
A: No."

That point you made might have had some merit had an FAQ already not been asked and answered.

As I have stated before, I have a RULE that lets me CHOOSE to Hover or Hover Strike in my Movement Phase. That is plain to see in the BRB and White Dwarf Magazine.

Show me your RULE where it says if I am Zooming I must remain Zooming.

40k-noob wrote:

"Q: Do Transports with the Assault Vehicle special rule permit their
passengers to charge on the turn they arrive from Reserve? (p33)
A: No."

That point you made might have had some merit had an FAQ already not been asked and answered.

I actually asked my question specifically because it was answered by GW. Your assertion was that Hover Strike overrode zooming and evading. I was making a point that making the claim you did is tantamount to making the claim that a Land Raider's Assault Vehicle rule overrode the arriving from reserves rule. There is one exception for Hover Strike, and that is zooming can be exchanged for the HS rule. No exception is made for a flyer that is evading. As for giving a rule, we have done so. If the other side doesn't feel as though the rule answers their question, that's their choice, but it has been explained over and again. In the game every time we do something that lasts for more than one turn (go to ground, pinning, units broken by a morale check, etc.) we cannot undo such a rule until we have a rule that overrides the first rule. Going to ground is lost if a morale check is failed, units broken by a failed morale check remain broken until they pass a regroup check. Those are two examples of specific rules overriding the general rules. Hover Strike overrides zooming, but it doesn't override the evade status until the next turn ends. Notice how the rules I pointed out tell us they ignore the status of previous rules? Hover strike does not do this, and in order to override the evade rule, it has to specify it does so.

The Stormtalon doesn't ignore the status of the Evade rule, however. The Evade rule still applies to it. Since a Storm Talon that uses Hover Strike is not a Flyer but rather a Skimmer, it becomes an Evading Skimmer rather than an Evading Flyer. Evading Flyers have to snap fire; Evading Skimmers don't.

So if I made an out of turn shooting attack against your Storm Talon in Hover Strike mode, would you still get a Jink Save?

WhoopieMonster wrote:
So if I made an out of turn shooting attack against your Storm Talon in Hover Strike mode, would you still get a Jink Save?

I can't wait until they release a rules update for the Storm Talon's rules addressing the quirks of flyers for 6th Ed. Being as it counts as a skimmer that did not move, clearly no jink save is allowed while it is in Hover Strike mode. I also think it would be silly to allow Evasive maneuvers to be executed while In hover strike mode, as the vehicle counts as not moving for that round.

To me, all of this still doesn't allow the Storm Talon a way to avoid firing Snap Shots during it's next round if it executes Evasive Maneuvers while in Flyer mode. Still it is all kind of confusing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:
The Stormtalon doesn't ignore the status of the Evade rule, however. The Evade rule still applies to it. Since a Storm Talon that uses Hover Strike is not a Flyer but rather a Skimmer, it becomes an Evading Skimmer rather than an Evading Flyer. Evading Flyers have to snap fire; Evading Skimmers don't.

I don't think there is a case for an Evading Skimmer explaining that the rules function differently than for an Evading Skimmer; therefore, I cannot see a reason to think the rules would function differently for a Skimmer subject to the rule than for Flyers.

 Kingsley wrote:
The Stormtalon doesn't ignore the status of the Evade rule, however. The Evade rule still applies to it. Since a Storm Talon that uses Hover Strike is not a Flyer but rather a Skimmer, it becomes an Evading Skimmer rather than an Evading Flyer. Evading Flyers have to snap fire; Evading Skimmers don't.

Wrong, and more made up rules.

Evade lasts one full turn. The only type that has permission to evade is a zooming flyer. If you try to not be a zooming flyer yiou are breaking this rule, as you have no explicit permission to stop evading.

You cannot choose, while evading, to become a Skimmer / fast skimmer, as this will cause you to break a rule.

Exactly as given above, your permission only overrides one restriction, not the additional restriction placed on you when you are in evade.

Stop trying g to Easter egg this blatantly

 Kingsley wrote:
The Stormtalon doesn't ignore the status of the Evade rule, however. The Evade rule still applies to it. Since a Storm Talon that uses Hover Strike is not a Flyer but rather a Skimmer, it becomes an Evading Skimmer rather than an Evading Flyer. Evading Flyers have to snap fire; Evading Skimmers don't.

Where exactly can I find the rule for Evading Skimmers? I see jinking skimmers, skimmers moving flat out, but evading skimmers. There are no rules for evading skimmers (even if you claim jinking skimmers are evading, see Hover Strike and Jinking, no movement means no jink), which means that the "Evading skimmer" is not supported by rules that means this avenue of argument is one way until you come up with a rule that makes it a thoroughfare.

"An evading Flyer has the jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

Evading lasts into the next turn and a "Flyer" (not zooming flyer) that is evading fires snap shots. Just because you are using hover it doesn't make you suddenly not a Flyer, you are simply a flyer in Hover mode. You are treated as a fast skimmer, your type does actually change to a fast skimmer.

AKA if you evade it doesn't matter if you go hover, you are still evading and snap firing.

 BlueDagger wrote:
"An evading Flyer has the jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

Evading lasts into the next turn and a "Flyer" (not zooming flyer) that is evading fires snap shots. Just because you are using hover it doesn't make you suddenly not a Flyer, you are simply a flyer in Hover mode. You are treated as a fast skimmer, your type does actually change to a fast skimmer.

AKA if you evade it doesn't matter if you go hover, you are still evading and snap firing.

The FAQ with regard to sky fire, actually suggests that GW looks at Flyers as being a Flyer or a skimmer, and not both depending on what mode it currently is in.

 BlueDagger wrote:
"An evading Flyer has the jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

Evading lasts into the next turn and a "Flyer" (not zooming flyer) that is evading fires snap shots. Just because you are using hover it doesn't make you suddenly not a Flyer, you are simply a flyer in Hover mode. You are treated as a fast skimmer, your type does actually change to a fast skimmer.

AKA if you evade it doesn't matter if you go hover, you are still evading and snap firing.

You're making the same mistake so many others are making in this discussion, this is NOT about flyer (Hover), it is about the Hover strike rule of the storm talon. This rule DOES change it into a skimmer, in exchange for not moving, and being +1 BS.

WhoopieMonster wrote:
So if I made an out of turn shooting attack against your Storm Talon in Hover Strike mode, would you still get a Jink Save?

No.

evildrspock wrote:I don't think there is a case for an Evading Skimmer explaining that the rules function differently than for an Evading Skimmer; therefore, I cannot see a reason to think the rules would function differently for a Skimmer subject to the rule than for Flyers.

Well, it's simple. The rules describe what happens for an Evading Flyer. An Evading Skimmer isn't an Evading Flyer, so those rules don't apply to it.

nosferatu1001 wrote: You cannot choose, while evading, to become a Skimmer / fast skimmer, as this will cause you to break a rule.

Quote the rule that it breaks. You'll find there isn't one.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Where exactly can I find the rule for Evading Skimmers? I see jinking skimmers, skimmers moving flat out, but evading skimmers. There are no rules for evading skimmers (even if you claim jinking skimmers are evading, see Hover Strike and Jinking, no movement means no jink), which means that the "Evading skimmer" is not supported by rules that means this avenue of argument is one way until you come up with a rule that makes it a thoroughfare

There aren't any rules for the effects of Evading on Skimmers, so it has no effect.

Its the evade rule. You are no longer evading for a full turn, and have thus broken the rule

Please, quote a rule allowing you to break the evade rule. 3rd time of asking.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Its the evade rule. You are no longer evading for a full turn, and have thus broken the rule

No, I'm still evading. There just aren't any rules for the effects of evading on a skimmer, so it doesn't do anything anymore.

 evildrspock wrote:
I would give my opponent the benefit of the doubt and snapfire next round no matter what mode of travel I chose. It's an obvious penalty from gaining another benefit. Plus, it doesn't matter what BS a unit has if it may only snap fire next round.

How is it a benefit? Ive played the way the op says it should work and yes, you fire but then you get pounded as you are no longer hard to hit. Those of you making it out as advantageous.....its not, you lose your flier to gain the ability to fire on your turn. I disagree with the tourney ruling, you are fas skimmer type unless you are zooming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other wise youd be dead as flyers have to move 18....

Im sure GW's intention wasnt to allow stormtalons to use hover strike to avoid the penalty of only being able to snap fire in the following turn. It goes against the spirit of the game to try and think or even argue that by switching modes you can shoot at full BS, if in the preceding turn you evaded.

The rule for evading flyer is very specific, with out the language to allow you to over look it. When and if the FAQ this you will see the right way is and be sad they didnt see your silly argument as valid. Crap even the part where you continue to evade and snap shoot is BOLDED for your understanding.

 Kingsley wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Its the evade rule. You are no longer evading for a full turn, and have thus broken the rule

No, I'm still evading. There just aren't any rules for the effects of evading on a skimmer, so it doesn't do anything anymore.

No, because in order to evade for a full turn you have to be a zooming flyer. You have broken a rule

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Its the evade rule. You are no longer evading for a full turn, and have thus broken the rule

No, I'm still evading. There just aren't any rules for the effects of evading on a skimmer, so it doesn't do anything anymore.

No, because in order to evade for a full turn you have to be a zooming flyer. You have broken a rule

Quote the rule that says you have to be a zooming flyer for the full turn. This rule doesn't exist.

You repeatedly saying it doesnt exist does not alter plain fact

You have to be a zooming flyer while evading,a nd be so for a full turn.

Try rereading the evade rule. It is plain as day

 Kingsley wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Its the evade rule. You are no longer evading for a full turn, and have thus broken the rule

No, I'm still evading. There just aren't any rules for the effects of evading on a skimmer, so it doesn't do anything anymore.

??? Really? With the advent of 6th do we really have a 40k my way game going? Over the past few topics I've been in discussion in people have made that exact same claim, that there aren't any rules about it, so they can. This is patently false, if there aren't any rules for it then you cannot. There are no rules that say the BBB can't be used to smack my opponent over the head instead of shaking his hand, so I can do that. There aren't any rules that I can't magically teleport my army across the table and into close combat, so I can. That's a bunch of garbage. The rules must say you can do something rather than you can't do something. If there is no rules for an evading skimmer, well then by golly you can't be an evading skimmer because you don't have permission to be an evading skimmer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have to be a zooming flyer while evading

Not true. "If a Zooming Flyer comes under fire... you may choose to Evade until the end of your next turn." You have to be Zooming to choose to Evade. Nothing about the Evade rule indicates that you have to be Zooming for the entire duration of the turn. The process is as follows:

-Zooming Flyer comes under fire
-You may choose to Evade
-Evading Flyers gain Jink, but only fire Snap Shots

That's it. That's all it says. There's nothing that says you have to remain zooming for the entire turn. Further, if an effect turns you into a non-Flyer, then you no longer gain Jink and no longer have to fire Snap Shots, since you are no longer an "Evading Flyer." You have still chosen to use the Evade special rule until the end of your next turn. You are still Evading. But if you become a non-flyer, "Evading" doesn't mean anything for you, so you lose the Jink special rule and fire as normal.

The rule gives you: If A, then you can B. It doesn't allow you to do If not A, then you can B.

Thus, the second you are no longer A, you are no longer B. Thus, you broke the rule and your action is not allowed.

You are insisting that you can Evade when you are not a Zooming Flyer. This has no basis in the rule.

And again you are ignoring that by trying to change mode you are breaking the rules for Evade with no permission to do so.

Stop easter egging.