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I've heard a lot of postulating about Double FOC games, but I have heard very little about anyone who has actually played them. I mean, I could bring 6 Battlewagons full of Burnas and 4 KFF Big Meks, but has anybody really done this? And, if so, has anybody tried or seen this type of spamming at the minimum 2000 points?

If you've played at 2000 or above, you've played double FOC. So I would have thought most people do, although the average game is probably a bit below 2000 points.

 Testify wrote:
If you've played at 2000 or above, you've played double FOC. So I would have thought most people do, although the average game is probably a bit below 2000 points.

Thats just a silly statment. You are not forced to play double FOC because you go over 2k lost of people house rules it so that 2k doesnt allow a second FOC.

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:
I've heard a lot of postulating about Double FOC games, but I have heard very little about anyone who has actually played them. I mean, I could bring 6 Battlewagons full of Burnas and 4 KFF Big Meks, but has anybody really done this? And, if so, has anybody tried or seen this type of spamming at the minimum 2000 points?

4 KFF meks + 6 battlewagons + 90 burnaz + 20 gretchin = 2490 points.
Which is almost my point already. I have played at 2000 with double FoC a couple of times now (Enemies were Eldar, Daemons and IG), and there simply aren't enough points to spam any silly stuff AND still be able to handle anything the enemy throws at you.

While not relevant to the theory, most players simply don't have more models of one kind than would fit into one FOC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tedurur wrote:

 Testify wrote:
If you've played at 2000 or above, you've played double FOC. So I would have thought most people do, although the average game is probably a bit below 2000 points.

Thats just a silly statment. You are not forced to play double FOC because you go over 2k lost of people house rules it so that 2k doesnt allow a second FOC.

Yes, you are "forced" to play double FOC at 2k+. Just like you are "forced" to roll 2d6 to move through terrain. Either can be house ruled.

Yeah, actually taking advantage of the double FoC almost requires 2500+ points. And thats what I believe its there for.


At 2000 points, the only thing the double FoC really lets you do is take maybe one more slot then you would normally have, but only because you've already got 4 troops and 2 HQs anyway.

So a GK or IG army might take 2 Aegis Defense Lines instead of 1. An IG army also might have a Manticore instead of taking another LRBT in his already existing squadrons.

Eldar might have one more unit of Fire Dragons.

Orks might have 2 more units of lootas.

Space Marines might have the space for 2 TFCs and 2 Predators instead of taking more Elites/Fast Attack.



Basically, the Double FoC means that at 2k you have a couple more slots to play with at the cost of double your minimum allowances.

I recently played against someone who was packing 18 obliterators. That was NOT pretty.

Yeah, but that was an unbalanced army. What was the rest of the list? 20 CSMs and a naked lord?

Guess what happens when that army faces a Guard list rocking 2 squadrons of Demolishers? Or any list with lots of volume of fire?

tedurur wrote:

 Testify wrote:
If you've played at 2000 or above, you've played double FOC. So I would have thought most people do, although the average game is probably a bit below 2000 points.

Thats just a silly statment. You are not forced to play double FOC because you go over 2k lost of people house rules it so that 2k doesnt allow a second FOC.

Okay. My swooping monstrous creatures are not "forced" to move 12", or restricted to pivoting 90 degrees.

Preventing double FOC at 2k is a fething huge nerf to some armies. Disallowing it is like disallowing any terrain whatsoever because you want to play a shooty army.

I still haven't played it, nor seen a for real double FOC 2000 point game, just a few 1999+1 silliness, and some 5000 point games. Have you played in a double FOC games, at what point levels, and what did you and your opponent do differently in your army building and the game?

 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, you are "forced" to play double FOC at 2k+. Just like you are "forced" to roll 2d6 to move through terrain. Either can be house ruled.

Actually: “If you're playing a game of 2,000 points or more, you can take an additional primary detachment.”

BRB Top Page 110, 2nd Paragraph.

You always have 2 FoC at 2k. The second one is optional for you to use, but its always there.

Its optional in the way that Heavy Support is optional. Nothing forces you to use it, but it is there.

 Jidmah wrote:

tedurur wrote:

 Testify wrote:
If you've played at 2000 or above, you've played double FOC. So I would have thought most people do, although the average game is probably a bit below 2000 points.

Thats just a silly statment. You are not forced to play double FOC because you go over 2k lost of people house rules it so that 2k doesnt allow a second FOC.

Yes, you are "forced" to play double FOC at 2k+. Just like you are "forced" to roll 2d6 to move through terrain. Either can be house ruled.

Wanna place a bet on which of those house rules that are more common at tournies?

tedurur wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

tedurur wrote:

 Testify wrote:
If you've played at 2000 or above, you've played double FOC. So I would have thought most people do, although the average game is probably a bit below 2000 points.

Thats just a silly statment. You are not forced to play double FOC because you go over 2k lost of people house rules it so that 2k doesnt allow a second FOC.

Yes, you are "forced" to play double FOC at 2k+. Just like you are "forced" to roll 2d6 to move through terrain. Either can be house ruled.

Wanna place a bet on which of those house rules that are more common at tournies?

At which point you are no longer playing Warhammer 40k, but instead are playing "What a couple of Nerds think the rules should behammer"

I have played it. Wasn't to unbalancing just because people lack the models (in most cases). At 2 FoCs your more likely to see either more tanks or more Elites staring back at you. As a Nid player I am not happy about the 1999 pt tournys as it allows everyone but Nids to have an Allied Detachment. It is almost a Nid specific Nerf.

What is new about it and why is it bad ? nids are a minority army anyway , no one forces people to play bad armies.
most tournaments I have seen are 1999 and all non tournament games I have played or seen caped at 1999 too.
If someone would switch to 2k , then it wouldnt be much of a change for most people as they have a 1 FoC army only anyway. It would change for people with two armies or those with huge collections ,but those are very rare here , so am not bothered . But I can imagine some realy bad lists . a necron army with 2-3 death rays and 1-2 AB could hurt a lot on a non tournament table.

 Grey Templar wrote:

tedurur wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

tedurur wrote:

 Testify wrote:
If you've played at 2000 or above, you've played double FOC. So I would have thought most people do, although the average game is probably a bit below 2000 points.

Thats just a silly statment. You are not forced to play double FOC because you go over 2k lost of people house rules it so that 2k doesnt allow a second FOC.

Yes, you are "forced" to play double FOC at 2k+. Just like you are "forced" to roll 2d6 to move through terrain. Either can be house ruled.

Wanna place a bet on which of those house rules that are more common at tournies?

At which point you are no longer playing Warhammer 40k, but instead are playing "What a couple of Nerds think the rules should behammer"

Oh, look! Hyperbole on the interwebz, how very unexciting and pointless. Warhammer with a few house rules is still Warhammer despite the fact that some nerd nerdraging on an internet forum might think otherwise. Even "the most important rules" says so...

With this said I think that the thread have derailed far enough so this will be my last post in this thread...

tedurur wrote:

Wanna place a bet on which of those house rules that are more common at tournies?

Tournaments are, by their nature, not how 40k is supposed to be played.

in answer to the OP, I myself dont have enough models to do it, but I saw a pretty nasty double FOC chart vs a single one for a 3,000pt game. Never saw so many nurglely things on a table before, and dang was it scary. The guard player had a ludicrous amount of tanks and infantry, but he was out maneuvered by the chaos player so bad.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, but that was an unbalanced army. What was the rest of the list? 20 CSMs and a naked lord?

Guess what happens when that army faces a Guard list rocking 2 squadrons of Demolishers? Or any list with lots of volume of fire?

Actually, there's still enough room for almost 40 marines + lord at 2000 points.

Space Wolves can get 6 full Long Fang squads, 5 troops, and two HQs at 2000 points. 40 missiles.

Or how about... 12 deepstriking Dreadnoughts!

For the most part, it will just be "I want to take four different Elites."

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:
I've heard a lot of postulating about Double FOC games, but I have heard very little about anyone who has actually played them.
Have you played in a double FOC games, at what point levels, and what did you and your opponent do differently in your army building and the game?

And these responses are nothing but postulating:

 Grey Templar wrote:
So a GK or IG army might take 2 Aegis Defense Lines instead of 1. An IG army also might have a Manticore instead of taking another LRBT in his already existing squadrons.
Eldar might have one more unit of Fire Dragons.
Orks might have 2 more units of lootas.
Space Marines might have the space for 2 TFCs and 2 Predators instead of taking more Elites/Fast Attack.
Basically, the Double FoC means that at 2k you have a couple more slots to play with at the cost of double your minimum allowances.

 Gloomfang wrote:
At 2 FoCs your more likely to see either more tanks or more Elites staring back at you.

Makumba wrote:
But I can imagine some realy bad lists . a necron army with 2-3 death rays and 1-2 AB could hurt a lot on a non tournament table.

somerandomdude wrote:
For the most part, it will just be "I want to take four different Elites."

Thank you Tigher9gamer for actually giving a real table top experience.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
in answer to the OP, I myself dont have enough models to do it, but I saw a pretty nasty double FOC chart vs a single one for a 3,000pt game. Never saw so many nurglely things on a table before, and dang was it scary. The guard player had a ludicrous amount of tanks and infantry, but he was out maneuvered by the chaos player so bad.

Makumba wrote:
What is new about it and why is it bad ? nids are a minority army anyway , no one forces people to play bad armies.
most tournaments I have seen are 1999 and all non tournament games I have played or seen caped at 1999 too.
If someone would switch to 2k , then it wouldnt be much of a change for most people as they have a 1 FoC army only anyway. It would change for people with two armies or those with huge collections ,but those are very rare here , so am not bothered . But I can imagine some realy bad lists . a necron army with 2-3 death rays and 1-2 AB could hurt a lot on a non tournament table.

This seems like a really ignorant statement. Nids have some scary builds right now, and I've seen them in action. They're one of the few armies I would actually be intimidated by, and I'm a guard player.

Also, they NEED that extra FOC at higher point totals. Their codex has some wierd imbalances in it, and certain units they require to fight vehicles or fliers can only be taken in small numbers. It forces them to spam certain units, and really kills variety in their lists. Imagine if someone forced IG to only take 9 of each special weapon and 3 of each heavy weapon, or if space marines were only allowed to take 3 razorbacks under 2k. That's kind of what Nids put up with daily, based on the way it was described to me by a local Nid player.

Plus, it's kind of stupid not to allow it. No army does worse because of it, so it only benefits people. For example, I could easily bring 6 tanks in my IG list at 2k. However, due to FOC restrictions, I have to take them in groups of 2, which wastes their firepower. Once you go to double FOC however, it allows each one to run on its own, which makes them more effective. I'm sure plenty of other armies have similar problems that would be remedied by the extra slots as well. For example, maybe an ork player wants to run 3 KFF's and a warboss so that his green tide will have better coverage and a Warboss as a solid warlord.

And of course, there's the other problem with limited slots. Usually there's a no brainer choice in each slot, like the CCS for guard, or a KFF mek for orks. These units are so good, you really can't afford to not take them. However, you only have 2 HQ slots, so it limits how much "fun" stuff you can bring. With dual FOC slot, you can finally see IG players running primaris psykers and Lord Commissars, you'd start seeing more shock attack gun meks, or maybe even a wierd boy. Obviously these aren't choices one would see at a tournament, but for friendly games, it lets you bring a lot more fun and interesting units, since you don't have to worry about using up important slots that you need for your army to stay alive. Heck I may even start bringing a small ratling unit just for kicks.

no problem also the guard player was the store manager, but he said that 2 FOC is not mandatory.

If I remember correctly, the two lists are:

IG:
command squad
one (?) blobby infantry platoon
x3 heavy weapon teams with autocannons
full squadron of leman russ battle tanks: two with twin linked auto-cannons, one with battle cannon
full squadron of leman russ battle tanks: two with battle cannon, one with twin linked auto cannon
full squadron of leman russ battle tanks: all with demolisher cannons and MM
x3 flamer/melta veterans in chimeras
ageis defense line

Chaos had as follows:
x2 Demon princes with wings and mark of nurgle
x2 squads of plague marines with plasma rifles in bastions with icarius lascannons
x2 squads of plague marines with power fists in rhinos
Assault terminators with lightning claws in a land raider
x1 full squad of raptors with jump packs

Chaos demons:
x2 squads of zombies (plague bearers)
x1 squad of zombies with epedimus
x1 giant nurgle....thing. it looked like a spider, but it might just be a conversion.

when the terminator squad reached the gunline, it was a blood bath. otherwise the IGwould have (barely) won

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Also, they NEED that extra FOC at higher point totals. Their codex has some wierd imbalances in it, and certain units they require to fight vehicles or fliers can only be taken in small numbers. It forces them to spam certain units, and really kills variety in their lists. Imagine if someone forced IG to only take 9 of each special weapon and 3 of each heavy weapon, or if space marines were only allowed to take 3 razorbacks under 2k. That's kind of what Nids put up with daily, based on the way it was described to me by a local Nid player.

Plus, it's kind of stupid not to allow it. No army does worse because of it, so it only benefits people. For example, I could easily bring 6 tanks in my IG list at 2k. However, due to FOC restrictions, I have to take them in groups of 2, which wastes their firepower. Once you go to double FOC however, it allows each one to run on its own, which makes them more effective. I'm sure plenty of other armies have similar problems that would be remedied by the extra slots as well. For example, maybe an ork player wants to run 3 KFF's and a warboss so that his green tide will have better coverage and a Warboss as a solid warlord.

And of course, there's the other problem with limited slots. Usually there's a no brainer choice in each slot, like the CCS for guard, or a KFF mek for orks. These units are so good, you really can't afford to not take them. However, you only have 2 HQ slots, so it limits how much "fun" stuff you can bring. With dual FOC slot, you can finally see IG players running primaris psykers and Lord Commissars, you'd start seeing more shock attack gun meks, or maybe even a wierd boy. Obviously these aren't choices one would see at a tournament, but for friendly games, it lets you bring a lot more fun and interesting units, since you don't have to worry about using up important slots that you need for your army to stay alive. Heck I may even start bringing a small ratling unit just for kicks.

Although I understand your sentiment, do you have any real life table top 2FOC experiences you would like to share?

Not yet, nobody wants to play it around here unfortuanately. We have a lot of tourney players, so the "1999+1" thing is pretty entrenched right now. I'm going to try and get it more accepted through some friendly games and whatnot, but it could take a while. When somethin becomes the norm for the tourney circuit, it becomes set in stone around here as well

All i have done is write up a few list, but I have not got the chance to yet.
It is also sort of a non-issue as curretnly we are doing 1850 games, but I have a 2k and a 3k game comming up so I might give it a try.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, you are "forced" to play double FOC at 2k+. Just like you are "forced" to roll 2d6 to move through terrain. Either can be house ruled.

Actually: “If you're playing a game of 2,000 points or more, you can take an additional primary detachment.”

BRB Top Page 110, 2nd Paragraph.

Which means that anyone playing 2000 can always use two FOCs following the WH40k 6th edition rules. If you deny your opponent the use of a second FOC you are in violation of the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tedurur wrote:Wanna place a bet on which of those house rules that are more common at tournies?

I have attended a tournament which banned battlewagons for being too good. TOs are free to change the game in whatever way they want. It's still a change to the game. Many TOs are not good at that, but do it anyway. Search this forum or any WH40k blog for "comp" if in doubt.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:I still haven't played it, nor seen a for real double FOC 2000 point game, just a few 1999+1 silliness, and some 5000 point games. Have you played in a double FOC games, at what point levels, and what did you and your opponent do differently in your army building and the game?

My eldar opponent brought two fire prisms in addition to three war walkers. The daemon player brought an additional HQ (blue scribes+Kairos+heralds). The IG player brought an additional heavy support and fast attack choices, a unit of basilisks and a pair of helldevilbanehoundwolves(the toxic flamer ones).

It actually works really well for Nids as they are generally restricted by having only the 3 elite slots. At 2k I can take 3 hive guard, 2 zoanthropes and Doom. 2 HQs and 4 troops is also not much of a handicap with tervigons as troops.

Iv used the double force organisation chart for my daemons just to use 2 Lords of change as well as some heralds.

I think its handy just because it makes list building a bit more flexible so people can build whatever they want.

 Xeriapt wrote:
I think its handy just because it makes list building a bit more flexible so people can build whatever they want.

You know, this isn't really a good thing. The FOC exists for a reason, so that you have to make difficult choices when constructing your list and consider using a wider variety of units. Taking away those constraints above 2000 points was a terrible idea.

(And just to emphasize the fact that "build whatever you want" is not necessarily a good thing, imagine if we also removed point costs. Now you can build any army you want, but do you really think that this will be an enjoyable game?)

I played a hilarious friendly game where I ran 18 Penitent Engine walkers* against IG (was probably 2500, but I can't recall). I ate the poor buggers alive, but it obviously wouldn't work most the time - if nothing else, because nothing I had could touch a flyer.

That seems to be the way of double FOC lists out of the gate - amusing concepts very good at one thing, but with glaring weaknesses. I suspect as people get better with them though, people are going to start finding some really nasty combos.

*I own 7, the rest were soda cans