Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Rampage wrote:
Can I just ask, just curious here I'm not disputing your point. What would you say sword/board Lychguard do in a Necron army to justify their 45pt a piece points cost? I haven't seen them used and I haven't used them personally so I'm curious to know.

They're the only Invul save, RP, power sword unit in our codex (and if you count the royal court, the lords are 1/2 the unit size and I believe as expensive, if not slightly more depending if you take more than just HPS and Phase Shifter). Now that they can embark back on a night scythe as well, they're more mobile. Personal experience, I've never had a full unit die and I've had lulz with their shot bouncing shields as well. I know that power swords got a small nerf (so they're not the answer to termies like they were before) but they're still very resilient (on par or better than wraiths) and more killy than wraiths since they don't rely on rending and have more attacks, just a little less strength.

Thanks for the breakdown, I'm probably just going to stick to my Wraiths though. As you say, they're probably about on par with Wraiths for durability, but then Wraiths are 10pts cheaper. I also don't have to spend 100 more points just to make the unit more speedy, as they're jump infantry anyway.

In fact, why don't you just put a Cryptek with a veil of Darkness in the squad along with a Lord with a resurrection orb? You don't have to start in reserve so you can move very quickly across the board on the first turn, and the Lord is further increasing your durability. Although, it is 25-35pts more expensive than the Night Scythe depending upon whether you give the Lord a Warscythe or not. I'm probably just going to stick to my Wraiths over the Lychguard though.

Flayed Ones are still poop in my eyes, even if Shadar does well with them. And until he wins something worthwhile I won't believe that he does as well with them as he likes to play up.

They can kill troops and they can kill terminators.

But any opponent worth his salt wont let you get advantageous match-ups. Since they lack mobility it will be difficult for you to get preferred charges. And 15-20 T4, 4+ Save models is not THAT difficult to kill.

I also dislike that they are really only good in one phase (cc) and even in the assault phase I think they are outmatched by other dedicated CC. I'd much prefer Immortals/Deathmarks/Wraiths/Scarabs. The Necron codex is literally so full of useful units that wasting the points on FO's seems very, very silly.

Kevin949 wrote:So...because the HPS/DS loadout doesn't break 2+ armor means they're bad at fighting now?

Where did I say that? They have never been good at fighting.

Moreover, the Necron army is not about combat, it is about overwhelming shooting, which they do very well. I don't get why people think you need something to compete in every phase of the game.

And if you must fight, then just take Wraiths, who are cheaper, better, and are scoring in one of the missions.

 Rampage wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Rampage wrote:
Can I just ask, just curious here I'm not disputing your point. What would you say sword/board Lychguard do in a Necron army to justify their 45pt a piece points cost? I haven't seen them used and I haven't used them personally so I'm curious to know.

They're the only Invul save, RP, power sword unit in our codex (and if you count the royal court, the lords are 1/2 the unit size and I believe as expensive, if not slightly more depending if you take more than just HPS and Phase Shifter). Now that they can embark back on a night scythe as well, they're more mobile. Personal experience, I've never had a full unit die and I've had lulz with their shot bouncing shields as well. I know that power swords got a small nerf (so they're not the answer to termies like they were before) but they're still very resilient (on par or better than wraiths) and more killy than wraiths since they don't rely on rending and have more attacks, just a little less strength.

Thanks for the breakdown, I'm probably just going to stick to my Wraiths though. As you say, they're probably about on par with Wraiths for durability, but then Wraiths are 10pts cheaper. I also don't have to spend 100 more points just to make the unit more speedy, as they're jump infantry anyway.

In fact, why don't you just put a Cryptek with a veil of Darkness in the squad along with a Lord with a resurrection orb? You don't have to start in reserve so you can move very quickly across the board on the first turn, and the Lord is further increasing your durability. Although, it is 25-35pts more expensive than the Night Scythe depending upon whether you give the Lord a Warscythe or not. I'm probably just going to stick to my Wraiths over the Lychguard though.

Well, the biggest issue *I* have with doing the VoD for them is that they still can't assault after using it (just like disembarking from a night scythe) and while you have great range with the VoD, you do not have the possibility of mishaps or dangerous terrain tests with the night scythe.

And yes, I typically run my lychguard with an Orb lord (but I've run them without one as well), but I wasn't factoring that into my breakdown because anything that increases the cost above what the unit itself costs or adds more members that aren't typically there is skewing the unit analysis. I mean hell, I could have said "Ya, stick in an orb lord with warscythe, semp weave, phase shifter; a crono-tek with time splinter cloak and chronometron, a destroyer lord with semp weave and watch them go to town!" But that wouldn't be a fair comparison of the lychguard to the rest of the book.

And yes, don't get me wrong, wraiths are GREAT. But that 3++ will be failed and it only takes a few lucky str8+ hits to drop that unit considerably below the usefulness threshold.

Yes, wraiths are 10 points cheaper per model (and overall cost less due to lower squad size) but most of the time you "should" be running a few whip coils at least.

Just saying, lychguard are a great shock troop and excellent at drawing fire away from other units and threatening important avenues, and protecting flanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:So...because the HPS/DS loadout doesn't break 2+ armor means they're bad at fighting now?

Where did I say that? They have never been good at fighting.

Moreover, the Necron army is not about combat, it is about overwhelming shooting, which they do very well. I don't get why people think you need something to compete in every phase of the game.

And if you must fight, then just take Wraiths, who are cheaper, better, and are scoring in one of the missions.

Wraiths are just as bad/good at fighting as lychguard. Both are I2, both have similar stats (+1/-1 S/T), both pump out close to the same amount of attacks and wounds but only some of the wraith wounds will be ignored, all of the lychguard attacks are ignored by the majority of models in the game.

Wraiths and lychguard fill a different role from one-another but I can almost guarantee you that lychguard would, statistically speaking, win out against wraiths more often if they went toe to toe (and you factored in equal amounts of either side getting the charge bonus).

Kevin949 wrote:And yes, don't get me wrong, wraiths are GREAT. But that 3++ will be failed and it only takes a few lucky str8+ hits to drop that unit considerably below the usefulness threshold.

Kevin949 wrote:I can almost guarantee you that lychguard would, statistically speaking, win out against wraiths more often if they went toe to toe

Wait, so you are arguing that the Lychguard are better because Wraiths will fail their 3++? And your LG won't fail their lesser 4++ no? And you are saying a S8 shot can drop a Wraith in one shot; do you not release a shot of any strength can drop a Lychguard in one shot?

As for your assertion that the Lychguard will win out, let's look. The closest we can get pointswise is 6 Wraiths (210pts) versus 5 Lychguard (225pts). So the Lychguard are already up points. They strike at the same time with the same WS.

Wraiths: 18 attacks, 9 hits, 6 wounds (1 rend), 2.5 unsaved wounds.
Lychguard: 10 attacks, 5 hits, 3.3 wounds, 1.1 unsaved wounds.

From the first round alone at least 2 LG are dead, and not one Wraith has fallen. Where do you get the idea that the LG win?

Please do some math next time mate.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:And yes, don't get me wrong, wraiths are GREAT. But that 3++ will be failed and it only takes a few lucky str8+ hits to drop that unit considerably below the usefulness threshold.

Kevin949 wrote:I can almost guarantee you that lychguard would, statistically speaking, win out against wraiths more often if they went toe to toe

Wait, so you are arguing that the Lychguard are better because Wraiths will fail their 3++? And your LG won't fail their lesser 4++ no? And you are saying a S8 shot can drop a Wraith in one shot; do you not release a shot of any strength can drop a Lychguard in one shot?

As for your assertion that the Lychguard will win out, let's look. The closest we can get pointswise is 6 Wraiths (210pts) versus 5 Lychguard (225pts). So the Lychguard are already up points. They strike at the same time with the same WS.

Wraiths: 18 attacks, 9 hits, 6 wounds (1 rend), 2.5 unsaved wounds.
Lychguard: 10 attacks, 5 hits, 3.3 wounds, 1.1 unsaved wounds.

From the first round alone at least 2 LG are dead, and not one Wraith has fallen. Where do you get the idea that the LG win?

Please do some math next time mate.

So, you're going to put a full squad against a half squad? That hardly seems actually fair as you're getting the full benefit of one squad and a half benefit from another. I don't think you're factoring in the 3+ and 4++ differentiation saves on the lychguard against the wraiths or the RP rolls.

And no, I'm not arguing that they're better because wraiths will fail their save, I'm saying that there will be times where a wraith will fail against a str8+ weapon and then it's gone for good, where as with lychguard they still have a 5+ chance to get up at the very least.

So as for your math anyway, your 5 non-rends would possibly end up in 1 wound and your rend is .5 so I'm pretty sure you're a wound off there. Then a 33% chance to get back up. *Shrug*

Kevin949 wrote:So, you're going to put a full squad against a half squad? That hardly seems actually fair as you're getting the full benefit of one squad and a half benefit from another.

So you want me to compare 210pts of Wraiths against 450pts of Lychguard? And you think that is fair?

Furthermore, without doing the math on that particular outcome, it still wouldn't prove your point, as your argument would then be that the LG are better because when they cost twice as much as the Wraiths they win. This breaks your argument rather than making it.

But just to satisfy you, here is the math for one round of 6 Wraiths (210pts), against 10 Lychguard (450pts).

Wraiths: 18 attacks, 9 hits, 6 wounds (1 rend), 2.5 unsaved wounds.
Lychguard: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 6.66 wounds, 2.22 unsaved wounds.

Even at full strength, the Wraiths do more damage, and given that the Lychguard lose 2 attacks for every wounds they lose, where the Wraiths lose 3A for every 2W they lose, the Lychguard diminsh faster in this circumstance.

So no offense mate, but please get a grip, and learn how to argue rather making constant strawman fanboy comments. It's fine that you like LG, but stop grasping at straws to try and make everyone else like them, because the simple fact of the matter is that Wraiths are better.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:So, you're going to put a full squad against a half squad? That hardly seems actually fair as you're getting the full benefit of one squad and a half benefit from another.

So you want me to compare 210pts of Wraiths against 450pts of Lychguard? And you think that is fair?

Furthermore, without doing the math on that particular outcome, it still wouldn't prove your point, as your argument would then be that the LG are better because when they cost twice as much as the Wraiths they win. This breaks your argument rather than making it.

But just to satisfy you, here is the math for one round of 6 Wraiths (210pts), against 10 Lychguard (450pts).

Wraiths: 18 attacks, 9 hits, 6 wounds (1 rend), 2.5 unsaved wounds.
Lychguard: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 6.66 wounds, 2.22 unsaved wounds.

Even at full strength, the Wraiths do more damage, and given that the Lychguard lose 2 attacks for every wounds they lose, where the Wraiths lose 3A for every 2W they lose, the Lychguard diminsh faster in this circumstance.

So no offense mate, but please get a grip, and learn how to argue rather making constant strawman fanboy comments. It's fine that you like LG, but stop grasping at straws to try and make everyone else like them, because the simple fact of the matter is that Wraiths are better.

Yes, I think that's fair as they're at the same squad strength, Full. If you want to have it your way and go by points then fine, but if someone takes a 5 man lychguard squad they're asking to lose them anyway.

Your math is still off, wraiths would do closer to only 2, not 2.5 wounds. And you're still not factoring in RP rolls. At minimum, a 33% chance per model. Might not be much, but it's more than the wraiths have.

Strawman fanboy comments? I don't think you get what that is, popular internet term of the day kid.

I'm no fanboy of the lychguard, I speak of pure experience and the lychguard have ALWAYS outperformed wraiths in my games. Perhaps I'm a better strategist than you? Or perhaps my opponents tactics vary from your opponents. Who knows. You can have your opinion, that's fine. I'm ultimately not trying to say lychguard are better than wraiths (you prodded me into this debate), I'm trying to say that they aren't 'bad' and they're by no means worse in melee than wraiths. Wraiths have their niche, they're front running fast moving threat units. Lychguard are fire soakers and flank protectors, and with a night scythe they can be decent shock troops.

Oh, well if the FACT OF THE MATTER has been stated, I guess I'll just go. *bows to his majesty*

Lychguard aren't bad - they compare well to most dedicated assault units and will slaughter regular marines (who are by far the most common statlines) easily.

But wraiths are just incredible. They move fast, are one of the toughest models out there (2w and 3++ easily beat 3+/4++ with reanimation protocols, and 2+/3++ terminators), and are a match for the top of the line assault units, and with their high number of attacks, can also plow through hordes that would tar pit other assault units.

This is a tactics thread, and while both units are usable, you'll only need so much assault in your army. Wraiths do everything you need, why use something ”good enough” when you can use something great?

Aw I just noticed they took Jink away from the Mono. Sadface.

wouldn't say FO are THAT bad. After all, if you outflank them and succesfully assault a shooty unit, you should be able to take the shooty unit down. I really don't see why everybody think that they're so useless.

And Deathmarks are great. Simply target small units and the targeted unit will die. If you use a Cryptek with a flamer and put in the squad, you might even kill larger units.

But you can't assault on the turn you arrive from reserve, including when you outflank. So the flayed ones are going to walk on the edge of the board, and then stand around for a turn, giving said shooty unit time to move away if it needs to whilst the flayed ones are shot to pieces.

Oh, sorry, haven't read through all the new ed. rules yet.

But wouldn't a monolith work fine? Deep strike it down, pull the flayed to it and assault.

Nope, you can't assault on the turn that you disembark from a vehicle either, unless the vehicle is an assault vehicle. Plus, that's an awful lot of points that you're spending on getting some flayed ones into combat.

[quote=Kevin949 474568 4743572 900f8229b741c0ede87e3d289ca1e01c.jpeg

Yes, I think that's fair as they're at the same squad strength, Full. If you want to have it your way and go by points then fine, but if someone takes a 5 man lychguard squad they're asking to lose them anyway.*

 Rampage wrote:
But you can't assault on the turn you arrive from reserve, including when you outflank. So the flayed ones are going to walk on the edge of the board, and then stand around for a turn, giving said shooty unit time to move away if it needs to whilst the flayed ones are shot to pieces.

Odd. In my games, I've seen walking away as slow than walking towards and assaulting.
6" move < 6" Move + 2D6" assault.

Making your opponent run away is sometimes as good as killing them. You can't exactly just run if your job is to camp an objective.

Where Flayed Ones cry is when I camp out inside my Bastion.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Rampage wrote:
But you can't assault on the turn you arrive from reserve, including when you outflank. So the flayed ones are going to walk on the edge of the board, and then stand around for a turn, giving said shooty unit time to move away if it needs to whilst the flayed ones are shot to pieces.

Odd. In my games, I've seen walking away as slow than walking towards and assaulting.
6" move < 6" Move + 2D6" assault.

Making your opponent run away is sometimes as good as killing them. You can't exactly just run if your job is to camp an objective.

Where Flayed Ones cry is when I camp out inside my Bastion.

-Matt

True, but it is dependant on how far the Monolith scattered, where you placed it in the first place and your roll for charge distance, so moving would make it less likely for them to charge you. Additionally, even if you're camping on an objective, yes you can in most cases, as the odds are with said Monolith arriving on turn 2 or 3, still giving you enough time to run back onto the objective once the flayed ones have been dealt with. And with 40k becoming much more of a shooting game in 6th edition, you're likely to be packing enough fire to blow those flayed ones away anyway, and then the Monolith can't contest objectives unless you're playing Big Guns never tire, although you'll still have to watch out for the particle whip. As I say though, that's an awful lot of points that you're spending to try and pull that off.

With all due respect, but a unit that requires another 200 points unit to be effective is...well...pretty bad.

 Sigvatr wrote:
With all due respect, but a unit that requires another 200 points unit to be effective is...well...pretty bad.

Yeah, I got nothing on flayed ones. I can argue favorably for Destroyers, Tomb Blades, C'tan and Monoliths, but Flayed Ones?
Sorry, but GW really dropped the ball on them.