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str00dles1 wrote:
Since Olblits are still bad, and even worse now, has anyone seen the cost for Havocs and how much weapon weapon or what weapons they can take?

How did the obliterators get worse? From my understanding they are 5 points cheaper. They lost a point of leadership, but if they are taking a leadership test for casualties, they are probably dead.

bogalubov wrote:How did the obliterators get worse? From my understanding they are 5 points cheaper. They lost a point of leadership, but if they are taking a leadership test for casualties, they are probably dead.

They forgot how to make Plasma Cannons. And they can't spawn the same weapons two turns in a row. Marks are a nice addition though, probably makes it a wash in the end.

Also, Oblits don't take morale, they're Fearless. Unless they lost that too?

Ah my already overfilled heavy slot. Defiler, land raider, oblits, and my havoks. Add in that havoks have access to flakk missiles, obilts have assault cannons, and the new daemon engines are just better than the defiler and I'm looking at an overload.

I can only hope at this point that land raiders can at least be taken as dedicated transports lest my biggie ever see the light of day again.

If the characters are exactly the same then I find it incredibly lazy that they haven't been updated.

9 Traitor Legions - give each one a character with appropriate special rules Stick Abby in there for chaos undecided players and everyone's happy. To be honest I wouldn't mind if Huron and Fabius were mothballed for a while if there were cool new characters and accompanying minis. 10 SCs might seem a bit much but you're trying to cram all the traitor legions plus renegades into one codex so I'm sure people would understand.

It makes financial sense too - new characters might encourage people to buy new armies. I've been flirting with the idea of Night Lords for a while and a Zso Sahaal mini would probably tip me over the edge. I might even be persuaded to do some Word Bearers if they brought out an Erebus with no face and a skull showing. Maybe an Alpharius for some 'is he or isn't he' mystery. 'Fine'casts of the existing characters? Bleugh.

Have absolutely nil excitement about this release, both minis and codex wise. Think I'm probably gonna shelve my Emperor's Children for a few years and concentrate on my Dark Eldar/Daemons. Shame, had such high hopes.

 Red Corsair wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
Since Olblits are still bad, and even worse now, has anyone seen the cost for Havocs and how much weapon weapon or what weapons they can take?

What!!! They are not bad, they are now 70 points wrather then 75 and can buy marks...... So basically for the price you were paying they now can also get T5, with MoN or a 4++ with MoT. Oh and they have assault canons again...... Nope pretty sure they still win over havocs for being a swiss army knife.

Yeah I am going to be definitely picking up some Obliterators. I avoided them before but they look pretty sweet. They also have enough variety in weapons to where not being able to fire one right after the other isn't super crippling. (unless you need them to take out AV14 spam in which case, good luck! lol) The addition of the Assault Cannon was a beautiful move, I'm thinking most players will be sticking with Lascannon/Plasma Cannon/Assault Cannon, of course it definitely depends on your opponent but I'm betting those will be the most popular.

With the Mark of Nurgle, they'll be super hard to dispose of, even in close combat since as far as I know they are still armed with a Power Fist. I'm certainly interested in Maulers as well but I really want the final point cost to come to light before I write them off. With the Mark of Khorne, they could have 5 (!!!) Chainfist attacks on the charge. 2 base+rage+two specialist weapons.

:edit:
Also one thing I was thinking about. Do you have to declare which dice is the 10's and which dice is the 1's before you roll for the D66? Because that will open itself up to a lot of abuse if you don't have to declare before you roll.

:edit 2:
Also thank goodness that there are no new Special Characters. Make up your own background, this codex is going to have enough variety to the point where you can really make your own unique characters.

 whigwam wrote:

bogalubov wrote:How did the obliterators get worse? From my understanding they are 5 points cheaper. They lost a point of leadership, but if they are taking a leadership test for casualties, they are probably dead.

They forgot how to make Plasma Cannons. And they can't spawn the same weapons two turns in a row. Marks are a nice addition though, probably makes it a wash in the end.

Also, Oblits don't take morale, they're Fearless. Unless they lost that too?

I am tired of reading this wrong fact....THE CAN STILL MAKE PC's!!!!!!!!

 whigwam wrote:

bogalubov wrote:How did the obliterators get worse? From my understanding they are 5 points cheaper. They lost a point of leadership, but if they are taking a leadership test for casualties, they are probably dead.

They forgot how to make Plasma Cannons. And they can't spawn the same weapons two turns in a row. Marks are a nice addition though, probably makes it a wash in the end.

Also, Oblits don't take morale, they're Fearless. Unless they lost that too?

They can spawn PCs, was an oversite in post that was corrected.

Oh they do have Plasma Cannon? Yay! The assault cannon really completes the swiss knife, more anti-infantry power.

UltraPrime wrote:They can spawn PCs, was an oversite in post that was corrected.

Ah, I see that now. Thanks. It looks like they did lose Powerfists though... Makes sense with the addition of Mutilators.

 whigwam wrote:

bogalubov wrote:How did the obliterators get worse? From my understanding they are 5 points cheaper. They lost a point of leadership, but if they are taking a leadership test for casualties, they are probably dead.

They forgot how to make Plasma Cannons. And they can't spawn the same weapons two turns in a row. Marks are a nice addition though, probably makes it a wash in the end.

Also, Oblits don't take morale, they're Fearless. Unless they lost that too?

Really? They lost plasma cannons? Guess you missed the first pic on the first page?

Guess you missed the last 3 posts...

If you're going to shelf your chaos armies, don't let the door hit your bum on the way out.

This thread should be locked, since apparently everyone knows enough about the new book to make a tactics thread on unit viability. ; )

bogalubov wrote:
A regular marine can buy the mark of khorne for 2 points and then pay 2 points for a close combat weapon. So for 17 total you get bolter, 2 base attacks and rage and counter attack. I guess you don't get access to chain axes, but those don't really seem worth it. I suppose they are also not fearless. Although they are still WS 5 the bezerkers are now only at one attack base.

So you trade fearless, WS5 and chain axes to get flamers or melta guns while still keeping your bolters while being cheaper.

Fearless is amazing in 6th edition. No penalties, unlike 4th and 5th edition where you started taking wounds.

Also, the Chainaxes look to be beautiful against Necrons, 'Eavy Armour Orks, Carapace armoured IG or Inq retinues or Eldar aspect warriors....

So much hurt and pain from a berserker unit, especially with the Icon. They'll just chew through entire battle lines.

 Hulksmash wrote:
If berserkers are 15pts as has been tossed around then let's compare the models:

Khorne Berserker - 15pts
Furious Charge, Mark of Khorne, Fearless

CSM - 17-17.5pts
Mark of Khorne (2), BP/CCW (free), Then you have to choose between the Icon for Furious Chage & Re-roll charge or fearless.

So the Khorne Berserkers are significantly cheaper as the 17.5 relies on 10 models. It goes up if you do a smaller squad and down if you do a bigger one.

I just don't see the Khorne Berserkers being worse than standard marines even at 16pts-17pts.

Except a Marine with the Mark of Khorne is 15pts, not 17pts; basic Chaos Space Marines are 13pts each, not 15pts.

I'm building a Plaguemarine squad at the moment but stuck on armament for the Aspiring Champ. Should I stick with a PF or go with a PW on him?

I'm just getting back into 40k after a couple of years, not had the chance to play a game of 6th Ed yet, so I'm a little lost!

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
If berserkers are 15pts as has been tossed around then let's compare the models:

Khorne Berserker - 15pts
Furious Charge, Mark of Khorne, Fearless

CSM - 17-17.5pts
Mark of Khorne (2), BP/CCW (free), Then you have to choose between the Icon for Furious Chage & Re-roll charge or fearless.

So the Khorne Berserkers are significantly cheaper as the 17.5 relies on 10 models. It goes up if you do a smaller squad and down if you do a bigger one.

I just don't see the Khorne Berserkers being worse than standard marines even at 16pts-17pts.

Except a Marine with the Mark of Khorne is 15pts, not 17pts; basic Chaos Space Marines are 13pts each, not 15pts.

Probably wasn't as clear as needed. 13pts + 2pts (MoK) + 2-2.5pts (Depending on Icon) = 17-17.5

Now if the champion is indeed 30pts instead of 10 that changes things slightly. But they are still slightly better than the basic CSM trying to mimic them. Which is right, since the CSM standards should be the generalists.

 Morskul wrote:
I'm building a Plaguemarine squad at the moment but stuck on armament for the Aspiring Champ. Should I stick with a PF or go with a PW on him?

I'm just getting back into 40k after a couple of years, not had the chance to play a game of 6th Ed yet, so I'm a little lost!

Your I 3 take the fist...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
If berserkers are 15pts as has been tossed around then let's compare the models:

Khorne Berserker - 15pts
Furious Charge, Mark of Khorne, Fearless

CSM - 17-17.5pts
Mark of Khorne (2), BP/CCW (free), Then you have to choose between the Icon for Furious Chage & Re-roll charge or fearless.

So the Khorne Berserkers are significantly cheaper as the 17.5 relies on 10 models. It goes up if you do a smaller squad and down if you do a bigger one.

I just don't see the Khorne Berserkers being worse than standard marines even at 16pts-17pts.

Except a Marine with the Mark of Khorne is 15pts, not 17pts; basic Chaos Space Marines are 13pts each, not 15pts.

Probably wasn't as clear as needed. 13pts + 2pts (MoK) + 2-2.5pts (Depending on Icon) = 17-17.5

Now if the champion is indeed 30pts instead of 10 that changes things slightly. But they are still slightly better than the basic CSM trying to mimic them. Which is right, since the CSM standards should be the generalists.

Right, you didn't factor the start up cost, the champ is +30 s opposed to +10 which is big... remember the CSM unit has more options for SW....

Also I believe Noise marines will be the new PM IMO..... Cheap, flexible, swings first in combat which makes them better then KB in round two AND they have range in the bolt gun, over watch. Plus the banner if you want them more durable and can squeeze it

Reading thru most of the leaked stuff posted, it looks to me like the codex follows the general principle of the IG codex in the regard of giving you as much options as possible to allow you to customize the army your own way while still being competitive. The big question will be "How broken can I make my army, while still being fluffy?"

Probably been covered in the 88 other pages but was unable to get a good search of what I was looking for:

Do Daemon Princes benefit from the Mark of (God) and the Daemon of (chosen God) rules? As in, does a Tzeentch prince get 4++ and reroll saves of 1? Does a Nurgle Prince get 6T and shrouded and such?

Thanks in advance

The Khorne Berzerkers are a bit more expensive than 17 points each.

Daemon Princes can do the following:

MUST take a Daemon of XXX
MAY take items from the Chaos armory and Artifact list
MAY buy up to 3 Psyker Mastery Levels (except Khorn)
MAY buy Wings
MAY buy Power Armor

Special Rules:
Demon
Fearless
Veterans of The Long War

Don't see anything that allows them to take Marks

So far I like what I see. My only real disappointment is the Battle Force.

I would not call it shooting themselves in the foot, but they defiantly dropped the ball in my opinion. The old one I could have bought 3 or 4 and then only tried to get rid of the possessed after the 1st two sets pretty easy. Now I have to get rid of the extra Possessed and Bikes so it looks like I will not be getting any Battle Forces and looking for the older sets. This might change if I can find some one who wants to do a biker list and wants to trade his normal CSMs, but then once more we end up with an abundance of Possessed.

All this conflicting information about Zerker costs makes me think there are still some people intentionally trolling.

So I saw the pic of the pages with Cultists and Possessed, but can't make it bigger and see it clearly enough to read. I read that there is a random D3 table you have to roll on, but what are the abilities?

 Anpu42 wrote:
So far I like what I see. My only real disappointment is the Battle Force.

I would not call it shooting themselves in the foot, but they defiantly dropped the ball in my opinion. The old one I could have bought 3 or 4 and then only tried to get rid of the possessed after the 1st two sets pretty easy. Now I have to get rid of the extra Possessed and Bikes so it looks like I will not be getting any Battle Forces and looking for the older sets. This might change if I can find some one who wants to do a biker list and wants to trade his normal CSMs, but then once more we end up with an abundance of Possessed.

I'm thankful they finally stopped shoving those Zerkers down our throats, they have been in every Chaos bundle for the past 14 years. Possessed can always be used for bitz. And bikes... why the heck are you getting rid of bikes?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


Fearless is amazing in 6th edition. No penalties, unlike 4th and 5th edition where you started taking wounds.

There is a small penalty for being fearless in that you cannot voluntarily go to ground. It removes the tactical option of hunkering down in terrain for a sweet 3+ cover save or better near an objective, but them's the breaks.

My zerkers never really suffered so much from Fearless wounds, as they had good armor. But I can see why orks and nids are happy!

 Morskul wrote:
I'm building a Plaguemarine squad at the moment but stuck on armament for the Aspiring Champ. Should I stick with a PF or go with a PW on him?

I'm just getting back into 40k after a couple of years, not had the chance to play a game of 6th Ed yet, so I'm a little lost!

It depends on if you will use them in a more close range role, or be a more shooty unit. If you are going with meltas or flamers, give them a powerfist. If you think you will use them to sit back and shoot, I would not upgrade the weapon to anything and just keep a plague knife.

I cannot wait to stick a Nurgle Daemon Prince on a Juggernaut of Khorne. +1T, +1W, +1A and make him cav... yes please.

Total of T7 + Biomancy = T10 Daemon prince of DOOM!

Maybe I will give him wings as well. That way the Juggernaut will look like it is stuck to the bottom of the DP.

 Sephyr wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


Fearless is amazing in 6th edition. No penalties, unlike 4th and 5th edition where you started taking wounds.

There is a small penalty for being fearless in that you cannot voluntarily go to ground. It removes the tactical option of hunkering down in terrain for a sweet 3+ cover save or better near an objective, but them's the breaks.

My zerkers never really suffered so much from Fearless wounds, as they had good armor. But I can see why orks and nids are happy!

Why would you use Zerkers for base objective holding?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


Fearless is amazing in 6th edition. No penalties, unlike 4th and 5th edition where you started taking wounds.

There is a small penalty for being fearless in that you cannot voluntarily go to ground. It removes the tactical option of hunkering down in terrain for a sweet 3+ cover save or better near an objective, but them's the breaks.

My zerkers never really suffered so much from Fearless wounds, as they had good armor. But I can see why orks and nids are happy!

Why would you use Zerkers for base objective holding?

He never said a base objective, just if they were near one.

Why wouldn't you use troops to hold an objective? Maybe it is the last turn or something. There are plenty of times where I'd rather hunker my troops down on an objective than rush them into combat, since objectives win games.

On topic: I'm still doubtful about the viability of zerkers. With the edition wide nerfs to assault and the fact they STILL lack a good way of getting stuck in, it makes me wonder if plague marines and noise marines will still be better.