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My Slaaneshi Raptors I made so long ago have gone from meh to WOOHOO with FNP! I am also very pleased that I have 2 of every Icon in my case, looking forward to experimenting with CSM and Chosen as core troops backed up by Marked Oblits (yay for converting nurgly ones already) and a Heldrake. Oh yeah, destroyer blades on all vehicles is a must even if they suck... I can finally have the mental image of running over and impaling my enemies (and then jumping out and denying them defensive fire while charging into the survivors). I think IG and Daemons as Allies as needed are going to make CSM top tier for a while.

5deadly is my new favorite poster!

Hoping I'm not going to ask a dumb question, but is there any word on Mr. Huron and his silly equipment/lackluster rules? Didn't find anything when attempting to search the thread...

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?

The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors

Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops

Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops



It is not about how many you can take but about scoring units.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Hoping I'm not going to ask a dumb question, but is there any word on Mr. Huron and his silly equipment/lackluster rules? Didn't find anything when attempting to search the thread...

from what I'm seeing he's the same... I read something on him a few pages back... pretty much same old Huron.

 Exergy wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?

The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors

Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops

Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops

It is not about how many you can take but about scoring units.

thay do have all that stuff... haven't you been reading the entire thread. they get all that plus they get all the other basic stuff plus they can take Guard nand all their stuff or Dark Eldar and all their stuff... it's gonna be crazy . you'll be able to run an all raptor infiltrating army with Heavy weapons... oh you'll be able to Kill everyone at your local gaming club without even using tactics just set up minis and they'll move themselves roll their own dice , everything... they'll even make pewpew noises when they shoot ...Oh to the Glory and it's gloriousnessness

 Exergy wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?

The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors

Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops

Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops

It is not about how many you can take but about scoring units.

I think moving stuff like raptors or havoks or whatnot to troops is not needed. The core of most armies should be the core troops. Cultists and CSM. Now I don't have a problem with an approperate army making an elite/fast/heavy etc. unit count as scoring, but I see no reason to actully make them troops. As all that does is promote spamming.

 Exergy wrote:

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors

Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops

Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops

If one organization is good enough for the TRILLIONS of guardsmen, orks, and eldar, then it's good enough for the thousands of chaos marines.

But one organisation is not good for the loyalists...

I am happy with the new dex. I guess it can produce competitive games and fun games.
As for the models i dislike, i ll simply convert or use others.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors

Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops

Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops

If one organization is good enough for the TRILLIONS of guardsmen, orks, and eldar, then it's good enough for the thousands of chaos marines.

and yet there are the same number of loyalist marines as their are chaos marines, and they have 6 books with dozens of organizations.

There are more loyalist SM then Chaos by this point. There have been successive foundings and the Loyalists won out in the Heresy. While CSM do replace their ranks, it is not in a mass-produced fashion like the loyalist chapters.

My guess on total CSM is in the 100,000-200,000 or so range by this point. But obviously all speculative. The only thing CSM have that's more numeric then loyalists is since they are in warbands and not the codex Astartes, a larger CSM warband can easily be the size of an entire Chapter.

 Exergy wrote:

and yet there are the same number of loyalist marines as their are chaos marines.

You just made that up. Its difficult if not impossible to even guess who is more numerous due to all the factors involved; recruitment difficulties/geneseed degredation, strengths of the original legions, battle casualties, equipment manufacture/maintenance and a whole host of other factors. As there are only a million or so loyalists its possible that there are the same number of traitors but its equally possible that there are much less.

At the end of the day GW loves its marines to an unhealthy degree and Chaos marines have long been treated as little more than a non codex chapter and to be honest you can qutie easily make themed lists for most legions in the current 'dex. In an ideal world I would prefer to see a single marine dex as well but thats never going to happen. In a game where IG Sgts can't even have lasguns (and the IG is probably the most varied fighting force in the 40k universe after Orks) I dont see why black chaos marines should be treated any differently than dark blue chaos marines.

Actually it is stated that the Word Bearers alone are close to their pre heresy numbers and the Black Legion might even be greater in number than pre heresy. I would estimate the numbers of the traitors to be around 500,000 or more.

I heard a disturbing and VERY disappointing rumor on Warseer...

Can anyone else confirm that noise marines are completely gutted by only allowing a blastmaster if the squad is 10 or greater?

This is a total slap in the face against 10+ years of playstyle,, and will indeed, be the end of 40K for me.

I have na illegl army from 5th, because I have several havoc squads with 4 Blastmasters, I have 20 terminators with sonic weapons.

All of which got no play for the entirety of that abortion we called a codex.

If this is two editions in a row where my army is illegal, I have 15K points in chaos marines going up on Ebay.

Until you read the WB novels and realize that they're almost up to the old standard of 100k, not the retcon of 250k.

 Exergy wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?

The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors

Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops

Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops



It is not about how many you can take but about scoring units.

You do know that there are two Scenarios and a few Warlord traits that can make FA/HS Scoring.

As far a FOC Manipulation
Blood Angles: Really overpriced becomes Troops
Dark Angles: Require mediocre characters to take special one trick pony troops.
Grey Knights: I can choose to take Overpriced Terminators or take a Character that can only really be good in a challenge to unlock Overpriced Purifiers.
Space Marines: Only large groups of bikes can be come troops. [this is the only one listed that does not require a “Special Character”]
Space Wolves: I can take Overpriced Wolf Guard or a so-so character and Non-Scoring Wolves.

Chaos can take a Character, not a Special Character and unlock one of 4 special units as troops.
Or you can take Adadon and take chosen as troops.

I don’t know why Night Lords needs Raptors, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?
I don’t know why Alpha Legion needs Infiltrators, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?
I don’t know why Iron Warriors need Havocs, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?

I know this might be condescending, but it looks like it to me you can build very fluffy list with a normal FOC arrangement.

Lets look at the Iron Warriors:
-1+x Warp-Smith
-3x Helbrutes
-2+x Chaos Marines with Plasma or Melta [maybe with FNP to fend off the Plasma]
-1x Forge Fiend
-1x Mauler Fiend
-1x Havoc Squad

To me this looks like a viable Iron Warrior’s list that is still fluffy.

I cannot wait till tactica threads pop up so I can see the new combinations of troops, marks/icons, and gear to use. This is a long time coming. It would also be nice to see a thread where people stop bitching about how screwed CSM are before the book is even out yet.

I shouldn't be surprised though, the internet only exists for 3 reasons

1. Porn

2. More Porn

3. Complaining

 Harriticus wrote:
There are more loyalist SM then Chaos by this point. There have been successive foundings and the Loyalists won out in the Heresy. While CSM do replace their ranks, it is not in a mass-produced fashion like the loyalist chapters.

My guess on total CSM is in the 100,000-200,000 or so range by this point. But obviously all speculative. The only thing CSM have that's more numeric then loyalists is since they are in warbands and not the codex Astartes, a larger CSM warband can easily be the size of an entire Chapter.

Actually they are even more mass-produced, because Chaos don't give a damn for the proper rites when it comes to such things, and will at times grab just whatever they want. They also have many worlds under their name, many recruitment centers, not to mention the gods themselves can revive troops, the warp can sometimes revive others, the gods can promote cultists to chaos space marines etc..

The primary thing is, chaos has far more ways and willingness to add more to their numbers.

 ceorron wrote:
Here is a question for those who have the codex. Is Cipher back in it?

I haven't seen anything in the rumors about Cypher, however I did notice this the other day.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440207a&prodId=prod1130401

Trying to make out the rules for destroyer hive and it looks like once per game in the assault phase typhus may place a large blast(hitting friend and foe) with everyone taking a str 4 ap 2 hit with the ignore cover special rule(okay.......). These wounds may not be allocated to typhus. Large parts that I missed but that seems to be the gist of it.

Hashulaman wrote:
I cannot wait till tactica threads pop up so I can see the new combinations of troops, marks/icons, and gear to use. This is a long time coming. It would also be nice to see a thread where people stop bitching about how screwed CSM are before the book is even out yet.

I shouldn't be surprised though, the internet only exists for 3 reasons

1. Porn

2. More Porn

3. Complaining

4) complaining about there not being enough porn?

 Anpu42 wrote:


I don’t know why Night Lords needs Raptors, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?
I don’t know why Alpha Legion needs Infiltrators, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?
I don’t know why Iron Warriors need Havocs, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?

I know this might be condescending, but it looks like it to me you can build very fluffy list with a normal FOC arrangement.

Night Lords don't really need Raptors. For some reason, people have gotten it in their heads that Night Lords are obsessed with jump marines or something. They're not. They're about scare tactics, guerrilla warfare, and night-fighting.

Alpha Legion needs infiltrators because that's what they do. The Alpha Legion, while extremely good strategists and phenomenal fighters, aren't the head-on fight kind of guys. They prefer to destroy the enemy from within through infiltration and sabotage. In fact, they will do this on purpose even when fighting head-on would be quicker and easier. Alpharius said in one fight where he infiltrated and destroyed the enemy from within that, despite it being the quicker method to fight them head on "...it would be too easy." They do use normal Marines (as opposed to Daemons and the like), but those Marines should be able to infiltrate.

Iron Warriors do indeed take Chaos Marines. But that's not all. They're far more infamous for their use of heavy weapons and siege equipment, because that's what they do. They tear down heavily fortified fortifications using heavy weapons and big fething guns. They should, therefore, be able to take more heavy weapons than the others. This army, however, is indeed easier to work with with this Codex.


I'm doing an Alpha Legion army, and I know I'll be able to make this Codex work. But knowing GW was actually thinking about something other than just the Cult Legions would have been nice.

 d-usa wrote:

Hashulaman wrote:
I cannot wait till tactica threads pop up so I can see the new combinations of troops, marks/icons, and gear to use. This is a long time coming. It would also be nice to see a thread where people stop bitching about how screwed CSM are before the book is even out yet.

I shouldn't be surprised though, the internet only exists for 3 reasons

1. Porn

2. More Porn

3. Complaining

4) complaining about there not being enough porn?

Nah three should be "Complaining between bouts of porn". Also there is always enough porn.

Bikers and raptors getting a price drop is nice since I converted up a unit of them with FW pieces. 20/18 each is a reasonable price but will have to see how much the basic mark is.

dreadnova wrote:
Actually it is stated that the Word Bearers alone are close to their pre heresy numbers and the Black Legion might even be greater in number than pre heresy. I would estimate the numbers of the traitors to be around 500,000 or more.

I was reading that Word Bearers pre heresy number was 200,000k alone. The Sons of Horus were the largest legion which would put their pre Heresy number at something greater.

The emperors children didnt have a large number but surely there are more than 500,000 traitors.

Slave wrote:
I heard a disturbing and VERY disappointing rumor on Warseer...

Can anyone else confirm that noise marines are completely gutted by only allowing a blastmaster if the squad is 10 or greater?

This is a total slap in the face against 10+ years of playstyle,, and will indeed, be the end of 40K for me.

I have na illegl army from 5th, because I have several havoc squads with 4 Blastmasters, I have 20 terminators with sonic weapons.

All of which got no play for the entirety of that abortion we called a codex.

If this is two editions in a row where my army is illegal, I have 15K points in chaos marines going up on Ebay.

So you have 15,000pts of CSM and you can't make a single legal army?

Palindrome wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

and yet there are the same number of loyalist marines as their are chaos marines.

You just made that up. Its difficult if not impossible to even guess who is more numerous due to all the factors involved; recruitment difficulties/geneseed degredation, strengths of the original legions, battle casualties, equipment manufacture/maintenance and a whole host of other factors. As there are only a million or so loyalists its possible that there are the same number of traitors but its equally possible that there are much less.

you are ignoring loyalist marines being turned to chaos. Certainly a one way path.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?
The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors
Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops
Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops
It is not about how many you can take but about scoring units.

You do know that there are two Scenarios and a few Warlord traits that can make FA/HS Scoring.

As far a FOC Manipulation
Blood Angles: Really overpriced becomes Troops
Dark Angles: Require mediocre characters to take special one trick pony troops.
Grey Knights: I can choose to take Overpriced Terminators or take a Character that can only really be good in a challenge to unlock Overpriced Purifiers.
Space Marines: Only large groups of bikes can be come troops. [this is the only one listed that does not require a “Special Character”]
Space Wolves: I can take Overpriced Wolf Guard or a so-so character and Non-Scoring Wolves.

Chaos can take a Character, not a Special Character and unlock one of 4 special units as troops.
Or you can take Adadon and take chosen as troops.

BA assault marines are overpriced? Seems they are the same cost as anyone else assault marines yet have FC.
Paladins are hardly overpriced
Purifiers are if anything underpriced with their storm bolter, 2 attacks, force weapon, and horede win mode psykic powers.
Again Wolfguard are some of the most point efficient choices in the game.


And now Chaos cant take marks to make elites that use to be troops into troops again. Wow doesnt that sound great.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?

The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors

Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops

Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops



It is not about how many you can take but about scoring units.

You do know that there are two Scenarios and a few Warlord traits that can make FA/HS Scoring.

As far a FOC Manipulation
Blood Angles: Really overpriced becomes Troops
Dark Angles: Require mediocre characters to take special one trick pony troops.
Grey Knights: I can choose to take Overpriced Terminators or take a Character that can only really be good in a challenge to unlock Overpriced Purifiers.
Space Marines: Only large groups of bikes can be come troops. [this is the only one listed that does not require a “Special Character”]
Space Wolves: I can take Overpriced Wolf Guard or a so-so character and Non-Scoring Wolves.

Chaos can take a Character, not a Special Character and unlock one of 4 special units as troops.
Or you can take Adadon and take chosen as troops.

I don’t know why Night Lords needs Raptors, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?
I don’t know why Alpha Legion needs Infiltrators, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?
I don’t know why Iron Warriors need Havocs, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?

I know this might be condescending, but it looks like it to me you can build very fluffy list with a normal FOC arrangement.

Lets look at the Iron Warriors:
-1+x Warp-Smith
-3x Helbrutes
-2+x Chaos Marines with Plasma or Melta [maybe with FNP to fend off the Plasma]
-1x Forge Fiend
-1x Mauler Fiend
-1x Havoc Squad

To me this looks like a viable Iron Warrior’s list that is still fluffy.

Wait a minute...purifiers are overpriced?

While I agree with you that the book gives great variety I don't think the problem is the chaos player base whining. It's just too many legions to fit into 1 book, so the chaos player base is always unhappy because there isn't any real rules differences between a large number of very different chaos legions. Everyone with a favorite legion misses the days of 3.5, and gw giving the loyalist successors 6 books to the 1 chaos books makes them feel like gw doesn't want chaos to thrive.

I don't feel like going through the thread, so allow me to ask a few questions:

1) Is Fabius Bile in the book, and is he any different?

2) Does Ahriman still suck?

3) Do 1k Sons still suck?

Hi all. I'm filing some Dark Vengeance Chosen and decided that I'm not going to be using the regular Chaos Tactical Marine models for my troops. Thinking about picking up some more DV Chosen and using them as troops instead. I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on the rumor of a plastic Chosen box set? Anyone know when Wave 2 will be released and what will be in it?

Did anyone else notice the Power scourge in the melee weapons, it looks like it says:
Strength: 8
AP:2
Melee, flail
flail being for all models in base contact with the wielder you roll a D3 and reduce their weapon skill by that much to a minimum of 1 until the end of that phase.

Ouch...

Im guessing its a Hellbrute upgrade or something because its description sounds like the old chaos dread flail-y arm thingies

1) Don't Know

2) I don't think so. He can make up to D3 infantry units infiltrate and is ML 4.

3) They don't seem to have changed much, if at all.