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 ph34r wrote:

 carabine wrote:
But it's not Axes and Swords, it's Axes and Close combat weapons. up until now a chainaxe was a close combat weapon. Also now a beserker box doesn't come with all chainaxes or all swords so you HAVE to mix and match. Local heavy tourney players around here agree that you simply have to tell your opponent what units have what upgrades.

Last time I checked most boxes, especially older ones, do not come with the full range of options to equip every marine in any way. I've never seen anyone making apologies for devastators not coming with 4 lascannons per box...

Last I checked, basic equipment was provided in boxes to equip everything, then upgrades are added on another sprue.

When you buy a berzerker box, half of the close combat weapons are chain axes. So you are now forced, if you and your opponent go by WYSIWIG, to take an upgrade you probably don't want, when you never intended to use that upgrade.

You don't get enough basic equipment in the berzerker box. You only get basic equipment for half of the models. That's where the issue is.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Lol @ thread... Really a wysiwyg debate?.......here?..... As always wysiwyg MUST be determined at the table, this is a stupid debate for the internet.

Agreed and I'm stepping out. Sorry for feeding the net folks.

Anyways so do we have a solid base cost for Berzerkers or do we know if they can take the icon for rerolling charge distances?

Anyone else feeling that the "supposed" points cost (170) for the Heldrake is a bit inflated for a str 8 heavy 4 weapon? Unless the drake turns out to strike at strength 9 I don't see the drake being very competitive compared to a squad of havocs.

On the flip side of that I can seriously see vector strikeing a flyer then nailing a squad of infantry with the baleflamer making the dragon a very focused target.

 carabine wrote:
Anyways so do we have a solid base cost for Berzerkers or do we know if they can take the icon for rerolling charge distances?

Since that's the Icon of Rage, which is the Khorne icon, I'd say there's a good change they can get it.

I am waiting to cast final judgement on the drake. I think being able to VS from reserve and shoot another unit will make it terrifying. Of course, if VS is limited in some way by it's movement or the unit type it swing at, it could suck.... just don't know enough yet on that one.

As for the cost of Berzerkers, I think that they are over priced if you take the five, close to on par at ten and become a better buy at 12-15 per unit. Which stinks because some of us like top field 8 More importantly for me, they are a fluffy unit I like. They are too one dimensional to be great IMO when compared to Noise or Plague Marines. For me those two do everything well, while T-sons and Zerks are either or.

 -Loki- wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 carabine wrote:
But it's not Axes and Swords, it's Axes and Close combat weapons. up until now a chainaxe was a close combat weapon. Also now a beserker box doesn't come with all chainaxes or all swords so you HAVE to mix and match. Local heavy tourney players around here agree that you simply have to tell your opponent what units have what upgrades.

Last time I checked most boxes, especially older ones, do not come with the full range of options to equip every marine in any way. I've never seen anyone making apologies for devastators not coming with 4 lascannons per box...

Last I checked, basic equipment was provided in boxes to equip everything, then upgrades are added on another sprue.

When you buy a berzerker box, half of the close combat weapons are chain axes. So you are now forced, if you and your opponent go by WYSIWIG, to take an upgrade you probably don't want, when you never intended to use that upgrade.

You don't get enough basic equipment in the berzerker box. You only get basic equipment for half of the models. That's where the issue is.

Here's a way to differentiate

Use something that's visible and easy enough to differentiate. If you are going to say, "These have chain axes, and these are CCW" Attach something minor to the base or model in question for chain axes, like a small roll of tape/small sticker on the chainaxe itself.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
AFAIK, it isn't. It's just a convention. But I'm personally a bit neurotic about it, and anyway, it is something that many players expect.

unfortuneatly the new chaos book sounds like wysiwg hell. how do you model "verterans for the long war"
khornate axes?
plague knives?
all the marks?
icons?

Veterans of the Long War; adds SM helmets/trinkets made out of Rosarius, purity Seals on the CSM Belt/Backpack.
khornate Axes; you really asks how to do it?...
Plague Knives; same has above.
Marks; They allready have it on their Shoulder pads for the Cult Troops, and for abyone else just paint them on their arms,torso,shoulder,forehead.
icons;...really...they have freakin icons in the CSM box..., what else do you want?

and so now everyone is universially required to put SM helmets/purity seals on their betls/backpacks, while at the same time pay 1-5 points per model more for any model that has those things?

yes how are khornate axes different from regular chain axes?

how are plague knives different from regular knives?

i think marked units should be a different color, but then some nurlgly armies might want to be all green even if everyone doesnt have MoN

Icons...so I am limited to the terrible icons in the CSM set....great.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carabine wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Defiler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I wouldn't be cool with that. If you model an upgrade, then you take it and pay for it. It would be really confusing if people started to model, say special weapons on their space marines and then say that they don't actually have them.

You sound like a lot of fun to play with.

I support Crimson. If axes and swords have different rules, which they now do, then your modeling must reflect the rules that you pay for. You can't say "oh, there are 5 guys with axes modeled, but I'm just paying for 3." The correct analogy to the predator lascannon shenanigans would be someone trying to tell you that his AC/2xLC predator is actually a AC/2xHB predator. You modeled it, it's an option, it has rules, you pay for it.

But it's not Axes and Swords, it's Axes and Close combat weapons. up until now a chainaxe was a close combat weapon. Also now a beserker box doesn't come with all chainaxes or all swords so you HAVE to mix and match. Local heavy tourney players around here agree that you simply have to tell your opponent what units have what upgrades.

For example how do you tell modeled purifiers from modeled strike knights if you don't want to paint white helmets. How do you tell paladins apart form normal terminators if you prefer the edged off helmet. How about boltgun holding sternguard veterans from tactical marines or chainsword holding vanguard vets from assault marines.

chains axes are STILL regular close combat weapons. Khorne bezerkers have access to a SPECIAL chain axe that has a special name and special rules.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 carabine wrote:
But it's not Axes and Swords, it's Axes and Close combat weapons. up until now a chainaxe was a close combat weapon. Also now a beserker box doesn't come with all chainaxes or all swords so you HAVE to mix and match. Local heavy tourney players around here agree that you simply have to tell your opponent what units have what upgrades.

Last time I checked most boxes, especially older ones, do not come with the full range of options to equip every marine in any way. I've never seen anyone making apologies for devastators not coming with 4 lascannons per box...

Last I checked, basic equipment was provided in boxes to equip everything, then upgrades are added on another sprue.

When you buy a berzerker box, half of the close combat weapons are chain axes. So you are now forced, if you and your opponent go by WYSIWIG, to take an upgrade you probably don't want, when you never intended to use that upgrade.

You don't get enough basic equipment in the berzerker box. You only get basic equipment for half of the models. That's where the issue is.

Here's a way to differentiate

Use something that's visible and easy enough to differentiate. If you are going to say, "These have chain axes, and these are CCW" Attach something minor to the base or model in question for chain axes, like a small roll of tape/small sticker on the chainaxe itself.

As I said earlier, I personally don't have a problem with it, since my chain axes will be anvil industries chain glaives.

That doesn't stop it being a problem with the Berzerker box, however. People who don't know better are just going to end up being forced to take upgrades they don't want.

 carabine wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Lol @ thread... Really a wysiwyg debate?.......here?..... As always wysiwyg MUST be determined at the table, this is a stupid debate for the internet.

Agreed and I'm stepping out. Sorry for feeding the net folks.

Anyways so do we have a solid base cost for Berzerkers or do we know if they can take the icon for rerolling charge distances?

Anyone else feeling that the "supposed" points cost (170) for the Heldrake is a bit inflated for a str 8 heavy 4 weapon? Unless the drake turns out to strike at strength 9 I don't see the drake being very competitive compared to a squad of havocs.

On the flip side of that I can seriously see vector strikeing a flyer then nailing a squad of infantry with the baleflamer making the dragon a very focused target.

the drake is clearly overcosted compared to newcron scythes and vendettas. It feels about right compared to DE voidravens and razorwings.

 -Loki- wrote:
That doesn't stop it being a problem with the Berzerker box, however. People who don't know better are just going to end up being forced to take upgrades they don't want.

This problem is not limited to berzerkers unfortunately. For example, it is impossible to buy a basic or venerable dreadnought with multimelta. However, I have yet to see someone use that as the reason why their assault cannon is actually a MM.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Zakriv wrote:
If you've got Zerkers who are modelled with both Axes and Swords, I'm of the opinion that you either need to take the upgrade on each guy that has an axe, for the whole squad, or not at all.

Honestly, I'd be very surprised if the entry allowed you to upgrade individual models with Axes to begin with.

I have a feeling it will be "The squad may be equipped with Chain Axes for +X pts/model".

that is correct, it is all or nothing.

 Exergy wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Zakriv wrote:
If you've got Zerkers who are modelled with both Axes and Swords, I'm of the opinion that you either need to take the upgrade on each guy that has an axe, for the whole squad, or not at all.

Honestly, I'd be very surprised if the entry allowed you to upgrade individual models with Axes to begin with.

I have a feeling it will be "The squad may be equipped with Chain Axes for +X pts/model".

that is correct, it is all or nothing.

That's strange. Regular CSMs get to take CCW on a per model basis.

 Exergy wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Zakriv wrote:
If you've got Zerkers who are modelled with both Axes and Swords, I'm of the opinion that you either need to take the upgrade on each guy that has an axe, for the whole squad, or not at all.

Honestly, I'd be very surprised if the entry allowed you to upgrade individual models with Axes to begin with.

I have a feeling it will be "The squad may be equipped with Chain Axes for +X pts/model".

that is correct, it is all or nothing.

This information certainly would have made this whole argument less of an issue earlier

If it's whole squads, it's not hard to do.

Welp, problem solved

EDIT: Too bad though, I think splashing two or so in a squad would have been the good way to operate.

 ph34r wrote:

 Defiler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I wouldn't be cool with that. If you model an upgrade, then you take it and pay for it. It would be really confusing if people started to model, say special weapons on their space marines and then say that they don't actually have them.

You sound like a lot of fun to play with.

I support Crimson. If axes and swords have different rules, which they now do, then your modeling must reflect the rules that you pay for. You can't say "oh, there are 5 guys with axes modeled, but I'm just paying for 3." The correct analogy to the predator lascannon shenanigans would be someone trying to tell you that his AC/2xLC predator is actually a AC/2xHB predator. You modeled it, it's an option, it has rules, you pay for it.

If i had to play someone who has a squad of 8 zerkers and they have 6 axes and 2 swords modeled on it, i would be ok to treat all the axes as normal ccw, or if he wants the axes, he would have to take 6. I wouldn't be ok with it if he says that 4 models have the axe upgrade and 4 have the normal ccw, because how would you tell the difference between the actual axes and models without the axe upgrade that have an axe modeled?

Esparoba3 wrote:

If i had to play someone who has a squad of 8 zerkers and they have 6 axes and 2 swords modeled on it, i would be ok to treat all the axes as normal ccw, or if he wants the axes, he would have to take 6. I wouldn't be ok with it if he says that 4 models have the axe upgrade and 4 have the normal ccw, because how would you tell the difference between the actual axes and models without the axe upgrade that have an axe modeled?

This. There is a relatively clear line for sanity in proxying: bwing able to easily determine who has what.

Chaos Terminators are a bit borked in that regard by 6th due to having no sword in the kit. Not even one. Anyone knows of a good bit or conversion, by the way?

I am a bit sad over the Daemon Prince losing Eternal Warrior. It actually puts him well below other monstros creatures of similar size that can't join units: most of those get T6. Heck, even a Dreadknight is tougher, killier and cheaper than the Prince now. We have to see what the artifact and armory can offer, but when getting some basic armor and wings already sends you over the 200 line and still gets you insta-punked by railguns....

 Exergy wrote:

that is correct, it is all or nothing.

Are you sure of this? I was hoping that mixing them would be an option, as using, say, ten points for upgrading half the squad wouldn't have been that bad.

 Exergy wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
AFAIK, it isn't. It's just a convention. But I'm personally a bit neurotic about it, and anyway, it is something that many players expect.

unfortuneatly the new chaos book sounds like wysiwg hell. how do you model "verterans for the long war"
khornate axes?
plague knives?
all the marks?
icons?

Veterans of the Long War; adds SM helmets/trinkets made out of Rosarius, purity Seals on the CSM Belt/Backpack.
khornate Axes; you really asks how to do it?...
Plague Knives; same has above.
Marks; They allready have it on their Shoulder pads for the Cult Troops, and for abyone else just paint them on their arms,torso,shoulder,forehead.
icons;...really...they have freakin icons in the CSM box..., what else do you want?

and so now everyone is universially required to put SM helmets/purity seals on their betls/backpacks, while at the same time pay 1-5 points per model more for any model that has those things?

yes how are khornate axes different from regular chain axes?

how are plague knives different from regular knives?

i think marked units should be a different color, but then some nurlgly armies might want to be all green even if everyone doesnt have MoN

Icons...so I am limited to the terrible icons in the CSM set....great.

Oh no there is a bit of a misunderstanding,.

Its not how everybody should do, everyone can do it how they see fit.

Its just the easiest and more direct way to do it, you are asking how to do, i gave you one of the way to do it,

As there is lots of ways to do Khornate Axes or Plague Knives.

The quicker way is to make Double headed chainaxes, or adding a regular axe blade on it, Plague knives, do it like all the Plague players do, make a ball of GS, put it on a sword and play with it until you get a mess that does'nt look like anything decent.

Its easy to get marines bits for nearly free, asks a friend to dabble a bit in his bit box, or in your Local Game shop.

And whats so terrible about the icons in the CSM kit?

The Khorne one as the Rune of ...Khorne on it, they are all a true reflect of what the Gods icons are, what do you expect more?

If not use the Deamons icons, or the Failcost icons from GW site(wich are pretty nice by the way).

And why Marked units should be a different color then then the rest? or do you mean in a BL or Universal army layout?

I'm always assuming that people talk about a specific legion point of view, seeing that i play only WE.

 Crimson wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

that is correct, it is all or nothing.

Are you sure of this? I was hoping that mixing them would be an option, as using, say, ten points for upgrading half the squad wouldn't have been that bad.

Well see it like when in 3rd Ed or even 4th if iirc, when you had to actually buy the grenades for the marines squads, its was 1pts per model, but if you took for one, the whole squad had to buy the upgrade.

Here it is the same, the "Per model" line is just there for the cost calculation difference between a unit with 8 models and a unit with 20 models.

Rather then saying 20pts for the whole squad, be it that you have 5 models or 20...

Dunno if i made myself clear enough...

I'm personally not going to bother modelling VotLW on y marines, as I plan for all models with access to it will be upgraded to have it.
I face a lot of marine players here....

 Sephyr wrote:

Chaos Terminators are a bit borked in that regard by 6th due to having no sword in the kit. Not even one. Anyone knows of a good bit or conversion, by the way?

i use the swords of regular terminators or you could use nemesis falchions/swords/halberds of the gray knight terminators ect...

 -Loki- wrote:
Last I checked, basic equipment was provided in boxes to equip everything, then upgrades are added on another sprue.

When you buy a berzerker box, half of the close combat weapons are chain axes. So you are now forced, if you and your opponent go by WYSIWIG, to take an upgrade you probably don't want, when you never intended to use that upgrade.

You don't get enough basic equipment in the berzerker box. You only get basic equipment for half of the models. That's where the issue is.

Better recheck that… Wolf guard and Chaos terminators don’t come with enough Power weapons to make the squad which is why Bitz companies are charging an arm and leg for a Damn terminator power sword even if the Wolves or Chaos come with a few… it’s not enough to equip the entire squad… and sadly that is the basic loadout for those squads…
WYSIWIG is goof ball… if someone want to run an all Donkey army with fruit as weapons as long as the plasma fruit and the power fist fruit can be picked out I’m good especially is the guy put a lot of work into sculpting his Bananas and Mangos…
This WYSIWIG load is yet another example of Successful G.W. marketing propaganda programing that has taken well amongst the Simpletons and Filthy peasants … if before the game Billy says all the Donkeys with Banana count a Chain Axes then cool… look out for the Donkeyzerker With the Banana…
Fruit for the Fruit God MF’ers

DONKEYZERKERS FTW

 Sephyr wrote:

I am a bit sad over the Daemon Prince losing Eternal Warrior. It actually puts him well below other monstros creatures of similar size that can't join units: most of those get T6. Heck, even a Dreadknight is tougher, killier and cheaper than the Prince now. We have to see what the artifact and armory can offer, but when getting some basic armor and wings already sends you over the 200 line and still gets you insta-punked by railguns....

Assuming it has the Deamon USR, it'll have Eternal Warrior.

 Testify wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

I am a bit sad over the Daemon Prince losing Eternal Warrior. It actually puts him well below other monstros creatures of similar size that can't join units: most of those get T6. Heck, even a Dreadknight is tougher, killier and cheaper than the Prince now. We have to see what the artifact and armory can offer, but when getting some basic armor and wings already sends you over the 200 line and still gets you insta-punked by railguns....

Assuming it has the Deamon USR, it'll have Eternal Warrior.

Daemon USR does not grant Eternal Warrior.

 Testify wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

I am a bit sad over the Daemon Prince losing Eternal Warrior. It actually puts him well below other monstros creatures of similar size that can't join units: most of those get T6. Heck, even a Dreadknight is tougher, killier and cheaper than the Prince now. We have to see what the artifact and armory can offer, but when getting some basic armor and wings already sends you over the 200 line and still gets you insta-punked by railguns....

Assuming it has the Deamon USR, it'll have Eternal Warrior.

The Daemon USR doesn't give Eternal Warrior.


Edit: Ninja'd!

Huh, my bad.

 5deadly wrote:

Better recheck that… Wolf guard and Chaos terminators don’t come with enough Power weapons to make the squad which is why Bitz companies are charging an arm and leg for a Damn terminator power sword even if the Wolves or Chaos come with a few… it’s not enough to equip the entire squad… and sadly that is the basic loadout for those squads…
WYSIWIG is goof ball… if someone want to run an all Donkey army with fruit as weapons as long as the plasma fruit and the power fist fruit can be picked out I’m good especially is the guy put a lot of work into sculpting his Bananas and Mangos…
This WYSIWIG load is yet another example of Successful G.W. marketing propaganda programing that has taken well amongst the Simpletons and Filthy peasants … if before the game Billy says all the Donkeys with Banana count a Chain Axes then cool… look out for the Donkeyzerker With the Banana…
Fruit for the Fruit God MF’ers

I've seen that army played. Led by the Grandmaster Donkey-cave, with his uber retinue of Donkey-hats. If only I'd had my iPhone.....

This thread is gonna get cast into the eye of terror unless it goes back on-topic...

I'd lock it if I could.

So anyways, back on the thread-

I have a question that I don't believe has been covered and I can't make out from the scans or write ups.

Does anyone know if Cultists can take icons? I know I won't ever get my mutant entry back, but if I can give them feel no pain I'd be very excited. Or even just the Nurgle mark so they are 3/4 again like old times.

So are cultists troops or elites? Cause on 1d4chan, they're listing them as troops...