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See again, I do get that you are BA fan,but you can't put Sangunius on top of the other primarchs - chaos Horus scattered all the potential threats,and sending Russ to kill TS was the best move he pulled on the whole damn Heresy (on his behalf)
+ Istvaan mascre...btw Horus respected Sanguinius as much as Russ respected Magnus....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: See again, I do get that you are BA fan,but you can't put Sangunius on top of the other primarchs - chaos Horus scattered all the potential threats,and sending Russ to kill TS was the best move he pulled on the whole damn Heresy (on his behalf)
+ Istvaan mascre...btw Horus respected Sanguinius as much as Russ respected Magnus....
Russ respected the one eyed mutant warcaster a lot! Oh wait...
Jokes aside, I thought I had read in some of the HH novels that Sanguinus was giving some counsel to Horus when their legions were fighting side by side. I'ts beena while since I read an HH novel though so I might be wrong.
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That does seem to ring a bell somewhere, and from the first few books in the series it certainly seems as though Horus respects Sanguinius' leadership skills at least more than the other Primarchs, at one point even stating that he (Sanguinius) should have been Warmaster.
There's a difference between that respect and Sanguinius being better in cc than Russ though. Again, I can see Russ doing more damage to Horus regardless of whether there's banter beforehand.
I could even see Russ holding his temper in check and wait for the Emp to arrive before going in the throne room together (would tactically be a good decision...).
I can't see Russ defeating corrupted Horus mano a mano.
Bran Dawri wrote: That does seem to ring a bell somewhere, and from the first few books in the series it certainly seems as though Horus respects Sanguinius' leadership skills at least more than the other Primarchs, at one point even stating that he (Sanguinius) should have been Warmaster.
There's a difference between that respect and Sanguinius being better in cc than Russ though. Again, I can see Russ doing more damage to Horus regardless of whether there's banter beforehand.
I could even see Russ holding his temper in check and wait for the Emp to arrive before going in the throne room together (would tactically be a good decision...).
I can't see Russ defeating corrupted Horus mano a mano.
not a single primarch could've done it. IIRC, sanguinus kills himself (figuratively, because he knwe that if he engaged Horus, he was going to get killed) to wound Horus so that the Emperor could win. That means that not wounded Horus was a match for the Emperor in Sanguinus visions and the emperor sent Russ flying with a back hand slap when they first met...
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army pictures are at: http://imageshack.us/g/197/sam0019copy.jpg DT:90S+GM-B+IPw40k11+ID+A+/hWD-R+T(T)DM+ GENERATION 9: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.
DarthMarko wrote: See again, I do get that you are BA fan,but you can't put Sangunius on top of the other primarchs - chaos Horus scattered all the potential threats,and sending Russ to kill TS was the best move he pulled on the whole damn Heresy (on his behalf)
+ Istvaan mascre...btw Horus respected Sanguinius as much as Russ respected Magnus....
Russ respected the one eyed mutant warcaster a lot! Oh wait...
Jokes aside, I thought I had read in some of the HH novels that Sanguinus was giving some counsel to Horus when their legions were fighting side by side. I'ts beena while since I read an HH novel though so I might be wrong.
They were arguing always over tactical deployment (which is normaly among demigods) - but one thing bugs me about Russ
codex-index and WD Russ is noble,cunning and very close to the Emperor (when he came to the terra Emp gave him a vision(WD))
books - Russ is juggernaut who will only stop when there's no one to kill - doesn't think just acts (similar to Angron)
Bran Dawri wrote: That does seem to ring a bell somewhere, and from the first few books in the series it certainly seems as though Horus respects Sanguinius' leadership skills at least more than the other Primarchs, at one point even stating that he (Sanguinius) should have been Warmaster.
There's a difference between that respect and Sanguinius being better in cc than Russ though. Again, I can see Russ doing more damage to Horus regardless of whether there's banter beforehand.
I could even see Russ holding his temper in check and wait for the Emp to arrive before going in the throne room together (would tactically be a good decision...).
I can't see Russ defeating corrupted Horus mano a mano.
not a single primarch could've done it. IIRC, sanguinus kills himself (figuratively, because he knwe that if he engaged Horus, he was going to get killed) to wound Horus so that the Emperor could win. That means that not wounded Horus was a match for the Emperor in Sanguinus visions and the emperor sent Russ flying with a back hand slap when they first met...
He was drunk,when he fought the Emp:-)and I don't buy that chink in a armor thingy - it's just silly - Pious or xxx Custodian sounds much more real....
besides that's very much questions emperor's omnipotence and his love for the Horus
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/18 17:36:20
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: Bare in mind he did' beat him in sparing....so he knows little more of him then Sang....
Where did you hear/read this?
And Leman Russ goes down just as easily as Sanguinius did. No Primarch can touch Chaos Horus in power.
As for there being no evidence that says Sanguinius could be better than Leman Russ, it is the opinion of Corax that Sanguinius is the only Primarch that may have a chance with Angron in martial combat, along with Horus.
DarthMarko wrote: Bare in mind he did' beat him in sparing....so he knows little more of him then Sang....
Where did you hear/read this?
And Leman Russ goes down just as easily as Sanguinius did. No Primarch can touch Chaos Horus in power.
As for there being no evidence that says Sanguinius could be better than Leman Russ, it is the opinion of Corax that Sanguinius is the only Primarch that may have a chance with Angron in martial combat, along with Horus.
That is one liner, from one book based on the one primarch opinion - so do the math...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
They were arguing always over tactical deployment (which is normaly among demigods) - but one thing bugs me about Russ
codex-index and WD Russ is noble,cunning and very close to the Emperor (when he came to the terra Emp gave him a vision(WD))
books - Russ is juggernaut who will only stop when there's no one to kill - doesn't think just acts (similar to Angron)
I havent read the codex, so i cannot comment on that and I am not subbed to WD (I prefer investing in models than in a subscription)
But, I recall in Prospero Burns, Russ gives multiple chance to Magnus to surrender. Once the beast is unleached, though he and his legion looks like savage, they do things with surgical precisions. The example of the company who attacked a Xenos base and, while the euipment was rendred useless by eh wolves, everything was still scalvagable by the Mechanicum.
Also, if Russ was souch a mindless incontrolalble beast, he would not have been the one charged of security during Magnus trial since he would be too unpreditable if something went wrong (aka Magnus getting very very angry).
So again, I think the HH wolves were more of a tactical strike then Angron's berserkers (forgot his Legion's name). They would go in, do the job, enjoy the fight and challenge since they are primarily warriors but not overdo it. They made sure the job was done, but they never overdid it. They just didn,t leave anything to chance.
DarthMarko wrote: Bare in mind he did' beat him in sparing....so he knows little more of him then Sang....
Where did you hear/read this?
And Leman Russ goes down just as easily as Sanguinius did. No Primarch can touch Chaos Horus in power.
As for there being no evidence that says Sanguinius could be better than Leman Russ, it is the opinion of Corax that Sanguinius is the only Primarch that may have a chance with Angron in martial combat, along with Horus.
That is one liner, from one book based on the one primarch opinion - so do the math...
I thought I read in one fo the books that Russ managed to win a sparring match versus Horus... Or I might mix him with another primarch that won a match vs Horus ( I know one did)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/18 17:41:53
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DarthMarko wrote: but one thing bugs me about Russ
codex-index and WD Russ is noble,cunning and very close to the Emperor (when he came to the terra Emp gave him a vision(WD))
books - Russ is juggernaut who will only stop when there's no one to kill - doesn't think just acts (similar to Angron)
It can be both.
Russ is still very much portrayed as cunning and incredibly loyal, whilst we have nothing to suggest he wasn't close to the Emperor IMHO. Russ is far more than a juggernaut and executioner; these are images that he/the Wolves want you to believe.
He's still an open book, but I'm of the belief he's willing to be anything the Emperor needs him to be; meaning he'll often act like a juggernaut or executioner but is actually cunning, jovial and self-aware beneath the surface, much like the modern Space Wolves Chapter.
As far as Russ vs. Horus, I can see no reason to believe he'd fare any better than Sanguinius.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
DarthMarko wrote: That is one liner, from one book based on the one primarch opinion - so do the math...
Is there any particular reason that you did not answer my question?
As it stands, the only Primarch to make Horus his nancy is Lorgar, who did so psychically.
O that it's in the old index astartes(I'm older than you.yeah) I can't say for sure but I'll bet my ayes that I've read it... If I remember right, there was a story about Russ and Horus sparring , Russ got pissed off and pommel him to the ground and the big E had to rip him off of Horus...
I'll try to dig the whole story...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/09/18 18:24:51
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
They were arguing always over tactical deployment (which is normaly among demigods) - but one thing bugs me about Russ
codex-index and WD Russ is noble,cunning and very close to the Emperor (when he came to the terra Emp gave him a vision(WD))
books - Russ is juggernaut who will only stop when there's no one to kill - doesn't think just acts (similar to Angron)
That's easy; the BL authors writing about the Wolves didn't like them very much. I recall Dan Abnett, at least, stating as much outright. Missed opportunity there, I think.
They were arguing always over tactical deployment (which is normaly among demigods) - but one thing bugs me about Russ
codex-index and WD Russ is noble,cunning and very close to the Emperor (when he came to the terra Emp gave him a vision(WD))
books - Russ is juggernaut who will only stop when there's no one to kill - doesn't think just acts (similar to Angron)
That's easy; the BL authors writing about the Wolves didn't like them very much. I recall Dan Abnett, at least, stating as much outright. Missed opportunity there, I think.
But he later became a fan:-)He even uses small axe when he writes...
Here is a mild version of Russ attacking Horus from "Wolf's honor" (old one says he mauled him on the floor when Emperor stepped)
Spoiler:
They spoke of Russ himself, not the blessed Primarch Russ, but the black haired, flame eyed warrior who was more wolf than
man. They spoke of his rough manner and intemperate heart, of his wild oaths and petty rivalries, of his melancholy nature and his
merciless rage. 'He drove us all to distraction,' Bulveye said ruefully. 'I remember one time when he'd got Horus so worked up I
thought they were going to come to blows. The Allfather got between them, and Leman punched him full in the jaw.'
Bulveye laughed. 'The Allfather hit Leman so hard he was unconscious for a month. Spent the rest of the campaign flat on his
back aboard the battle-barge.'
One of Bulveye's pack leaders, a warrior named Dagmar, shook his head and chuckled. 'That was the quietest month we ever had,'
he said, and his companions laughed along with him.
'Leman didn't speak to the Allfather for almost a year, but eventually they came around,' the Wolf Lord said with a grin. 'That was
how they were, like a jarl and his sons, always squabbling about one thing or another, but they never forgot the ties of blood and
kin.' Bulveye paused, and his smile faded. 'Well, not until the end.'[spoiler]
Even if Russ got knocked out again:-) Who in the Pete sake had the balls to straight punch the Emperor
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/09/18 18:56:53
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Ok if you say so - I'm not gonna feed your SW hate - you don't even know 1/32 stories from the WD,so you are not relevant to this thread, now start another hate post or go weeping...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
I don't think that Leman Russ would fair any better than Sanguinus in the battle versus Horus. We can go ahead and look at his closest battle to fighting Empowered Horus which would be fighting Magnus on Prospero. While Leman Russ was victorious over Magnus, the battle was a raging brawl and not one sided at all. Magnus wasn't even a CC monster and was able to stand up to Leman Russ in CC decently enough, and that is only with one Chaos God at his side (that he didn't even fully embrace at that point). If we take that in context, than compare that Horus was not only more skilled in CC than Magnus but he was essentially four times more powerful (all 4 Gods) AND fully embracing his powers....I can't see Leman Russ standing much of a real chance.
Now here is where I feel Leman Russ might have even done worse. While the battle might have, or almost surely would have lasted longer and been more of a brawl than a duel I'm not sure if Leman Russ is self-less enough to do what Sanguinus did. I see Sanguinus as giving his life selflessly to create a weakness that could be exploited by the Emperor. One thing we do know about Leman Russ is that he was proud like all the other Space Wolves. I do not know if he would have come to such a conclusion, I think he would have fought with everything he had rather than make any move that would ensure utter defeat on his part. I think Sanguinus was able to see the bigger picture and act on that, where as Leman Russ may have been able to see it but would not have acted on it...convincing himself that he could best the war master without sacrificing himself needlessly or seeing such an act as dishonoring himself and his pride.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/09/18 20:34:31
Can someone please explain to me how the hell "chink in the armor" can affect a psykic blow from a most powerful being in the universe....? Did Horus removed his helmet to see the scratch and then the Emp puffed him in the head?
Besides that puts a whole different perspective on the fight,meaning that Emp wanted Horus dead,but couldn't kill him....not to mention whole Emp loved Horus story + Pious and random Custodian - BL writers need to decide well in the incoming battle what they will write...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/18 21:53:58
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: Bare in mind he did' beat him in sparing....so he knows little more of him then Sang....
Where did you hear/read this?
And Leman Russ goes down just as easily as Sanguinius did. No Primarch can touch Chaos Horus in power.
As for there being no evidence that says Sanguinius could be better than Leman Russ, it is the opinion of Corax that Sanguinius is the only Primarch that may have a chance with Angron in martial combat, along with Horus.
That is one liner, from one book based on the one primarch opinion - so do the math...
I thought I read in one fo the books that Russ managed to win a sparring match versus Horus... Or I might mix him with another primarch that won a match vs Horus ( I know one did)
The Emperor's Chief Custodian managed to beat Horus in a sparring match, perhaps you are confusing him with Russ, or perhaps Horus is just being used to prove how badass everyone is.
TheAngrySquig wrote: I think it was a physical psychic attack that went through the armor chink. Sort of like The Blood Lance power from the BA codex
Hm, that sounds ok then...but still puts a question mark on whole Emp holding back thing...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: Can someone please explain to me how the hell "chink in the armor" can affect a psykic blow from a most powerful being in the universe....? Did Horus removed his helmet to see the scratch and then the Emp puffed him in the head?
Besides that puts a whole different perspective on the fight,meaning that Emp wanted Horus dead,but couldn't kill him....not to mention whole Emp loved Horus story + Pious and random Custodian - BL writers need to decide well in the incoming battle what they will write...
Its a popular myth that Blood Angel supporters (in fluff) like to tell themselves so that Sanguinius death wasnt in vain. It doesnt make sense though.
The Emperor was more than a match for Horus but he PURPOSELY HELD BACK because he didnt want to hurt his favorite son. This is made CLEAR in the fluff. Horus had no so limit on him and went all out. After Ollanius Pious/IF Terminator/Custodian dies, the Emperor sees that there is no way to save Horus and simply uses his mind to literally rip the Chaos gods out of Horus. This is done with his mind, a piece of terminator armor isnt going to stop the Emperor from doing this.
Sanguinius death was a tragedy that was unavoidable, it was not a honorable sacrifice to save the day because he failed to accomplish anything that would do any real good in the fight.
^Not so much. Horus' armor was blessed by the Dark Gods. These blessings included anti-magic wards. So if those wards werent broken by say, a chink caused by a flying golden vampire angel demi-god, then it is possible that the attack could have been repelled and Horus could be swinging his mace like a happy little child in a china shop
The chink in the armor thing has never made any sense to me simply because Horus is never depicted as wearing a helmet. Who needs to focus their attacks on a damaged section of armor when the guy's entire head is exposed?
In regards to Russ beating Horus in a duel, I really think this was simply a fan statement that has just built into "fact". I've seen it mentioned many times with multiple variations, and all anyone has ever been able to cite as a source is "an old White Dwarf". Until someone actually gives me an issue #, I call fake.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/18 23:47:37
TheAngrySquig wrote: Sanguinius put a chink in his plot armor, that make more sense?
Yep :-)
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
TheAngrySquig wrote: Always glad to help with my well thought out and reasonable points
Hats down to you sir...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
TheAngrySquig wrote: ^Not so much. Horus' armor was blessed by the Dark Gods. These blessings included anti-magic wards. So if those wards werent broken by say, a chink caused by a flying golden vampire angel demi-god, then it is possible that the attack could have been repelled and Horus could be swinging his mace like a happy little child in a china shop
If this anti-psyker ward is so powerful that it can prevent the most powerful psyker there is (a being who gives the Chaos gods pause) from standing up to Horus, a small little crack in the armor isnt going to effect the anti-pskyer ward effectiveness.
The fluff has made it clear, the Emperor could EASILY have taken Horus on. It is written in that WD article way back that the Emperor couldnt bring himself to fight Horus at all, all the Emperor was doing was being defensive. Once the Emperor decides to go all out, he simply does it without any issue. There is no mention anyway that "Because of Sanguinius scratched the paint on Horus' armor, the special anti-psyker wards completely failed to operate when the Emperor decided to use his psyker powers."
I just always considered this idea that Sanguinis was the only reason the Emperor was able to defeat Horus because of a single lucky blow kind of dumb. Besides, how would anyone even know that he did it? The only people who believe it are people who worship the man (in fluff) but they would have no way of knowing if that is true sense the only living witness of the battle was the Emperor and he never said anything about that sense even he didnt know about it
