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I do agree with Galdos - this is BA point of view and I don't think IoM shares the same opinion... there are to much "if" - if that was true notion...
besides maybe he did bent Lupercals armor - but in the end didn't matter...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/19 00:59:20
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
The Emperor's Chief Custodian managed to beat Horus in a sparring match, perhaps you are confusing him with Russ, or perhaps Horus is just being used to prove how badass everyone is.
I have never found the source of this and people who have posted this have never been able to provide it either. Can you Buttons?
Galdos wrote: I just always considered this idea that Sanguinis was the only reason the Emperor was able to defeat Horus because of a single lucky blow kind of dumb. Besides, how would anyone even know that he did it? The only people who believe it are people who worship the man (in fluff) but they would have no way of knowing if that is true sense the only living witness of the battle was the Emperor and he never said anything about that sense even he didnt know about it
It's clearly not the only reason, but it seems to have been the opening or the weakness that the Emperor used to strike the killing blow.
Whether or not it is an actual chink in Horus armour or a break in his mental fortitude I am not sure, personally I think it bought up that last bit of humanity in him which held the Chaos Gods back or gave him that moment of clarity at what his father must do.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/19 09:00:04
Farseer Mael Dannan wrote: I don't think that Leman Russ would fair any better than Sanguinus in the battle versus Horus. We can go ahead and look at his closest battle to fighting Empowered Horus which would be fighting Magnus on Prospero. While Leman Russ was victorious over Magnus, the battle was a raging brawl and not one sided at all. Magnus wasn't even a CC monster and was able to stand up to Leman Russ in CC decently enough, and that is only with one Chaos God at his side (that he didn't even fully embrace at that point). If we take that in context, than compare that Horus was not only more skilled in CC than Magnus but he was essentially four times more powerful (all 4 Gods) AND fully embracing his powers....I can't see Leman Russ standing much of a real chance.
I don't think anyone's claiming Russ could singlehandedly defeat corrupted Horus.
I know I've repeatedly stated that this match goes to Horus in a one-on-one.
As for the Russ vs Magnus battle, I do believe that a large part of Magnus holding his own was due to his psychic powers -if not it's just really bad writing (a common fault in BL writing, sadly).
"Magnus, squatting in his vast tower, watched in agony as his sons were torn to pieces by the barbarian Wolves of Russ. The howls of the pack resounded in his ears, destroying his concentration, breaking his psychic wards and driving him to the edge of madness. Bounding from his ebony throne, he flung his arms in the air and roared a plea for help, to save his Legion and their great works. As if something malign had been waiting for the Cyclops call, the sky grew dark and the air boiled with energy. Magnus was infused with eldritch power, his frame buckling as vile changes were wrought upon his body and his soul. He gazed out from the parapets of his citadel at the landscape of pain stretching before him, and screamed.
Hundreds of the Sons of Russ lost their minds completely as the magicks of Magnus took their toll. The skies cracked open, kaleidoscopic lightning blasting apart squad after squad of the savage Space Wolves. The very soil of Prospero sprouted ten-fingered hands like obscene fungi, clutching at the legs of the beast-warriors. And yet, they fought on regardless, sheer bloodlust inuring them against the numerous terrors now defending the citadels."
Spoiler:
"Magnus the Red took to the field of battle. The ravaged ground liquefying under his mighty strides As he cut a swathe through the ranks of the Space Wolves, Crushing everything in his path. Where his gaze fell, even the stoutest Long Fang turned white and died. The single orb in his forehead pulsed with an unnatural light. And his red mane stood on end with the energies coursing around him. Truly, this was an abomination in the eyes of the Emperor.
Leman Russ leapt from the thick of the melee to intercept the rampaging giant. As he turned, Russ grabbed one of the traitors by the throat and flung it at the giant's face. Magnus s petrifying gaze was blocked for a moment, and with celerity unheard of, Russ charged bodily into the crimson behemoth. And yet he did not fall.
The giant moved far faster than a being of such size might. Smashing his fist into Russ s chest with force enough to splinter his breastplate, pushing slivers of ccramite into Russs heart. But the Wolf-King was undaunted. Crabbing the giants arm as Magnus reared back for another blow, Russ was brought near to the giants face, and kicked him squarely in the eye. Magnus's roar of pain shattered the sky above, and thick black blood began to rain from the heavens.
Russ took his chance, and grabbed his blinded foe about the waist. Lifting the Cyclops clean off the ground, teeth grinding in a grimace of pain, The Wolf-King broke the Cyclops' back. The Thousand Sons, seeing their Primarch broken and cast down, turned and fled. But as Russ raised the Frostblade Mjalnar to deliver the killing blow. Magnus gasped a word of power and sank into the iridescent ground."
Russ shruged fat bastards most powerful Tzeenches imbued psykic attack...and bend him over the knee...
No matter which perspective you choose (and codex or book view ) - end result is the same = red dude in the wheelchair
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2012/09/19 10:34:07
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
I am not sure, personally I think it bought up that last bit of humanity in him which held the Chaos Gods back or gave him that moment of clarity at what his father must do.
That would actually be okay in my eyes. Because than it would be Horus who is fighting to redeem himself. It doesnt really allign with the WD version of the story but thats okay because it actually tells a good story. Horus is disgusted at what he became and as the Emperor launches his last attack, the good part of Horus reacts to help the attack succed by slowing his body reflexes down or something.
I am not sure, personally I think it bought up that last bit of humanity in him which held the Chaos Gods back or gave him that moment of clarity at what his father must do.
That would actually be okay in my eyes. Because than it would be Horus who is fighting to redeem himself. It doesnt really allign with the WD version of the story but thats okay because it actually tells a good story. Horus is disgusted at what he became and as the Emperor launches his last attack, the good part of Horus reacts to help the attack succed by slowing his body reflexes down or something.
That works in my eyes, the BA thing doesnt
But what if it was the death of his best friend at his own hand that is the catalyst, the realisation of the betrayal that causes his humanity to stir. There might still be love there and it might be that love that drives Horus to try and bring Sanguinius under his banner before he murders him.
DarthMarko wrote: Can someone please explain to me how the hell "chink in the armor" can affect a psykic blow from a most powerful being in the universe....?
It could be metaphorical. He may have lowered or otherwise deflected some of Horus' Psychic Defense with his death. If Sanguinius can feel when his sons die due to their connection (and vice versa), perhaps the same is true with Sanguinius and his brother primarchs. Doubly so if that brother primarch is the one that killed him.
Just a thought. Not one I put much stock in, though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/19 15:52:05
Hi friend !!! I was just expecting you to tell me how Russ would rip Horus head off and you disapoint me like this..Next I'll think that you don't like the SW at all:-):-)
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Its a popular myth that Blood Angel supporters (in fluff) like to tell themselves so that Sanguinius death wasnt in vain. It doesnt make sense though.
Well, Sanguinius himself pretty much says the same thing from his vision of the future.
The chink in the armor makes perfect sense if you consider the armor to be warded against psychic powers. Think of a warding circle, or hexagrammic wards, which if disturbed/interrupted, lose their efficacy.
I see no reason to believe Russ would have had any more chance of doing damage to Horus. I'll go against the grain and say that Russ would have done worse. I have no evidence to support this of course, but it's just an opinion.
Ignatius wrote: I see no reason to believe Russ would have had any more chance of doing damage to Horus. I'll go against the grain and say that Russ would have done worse. I have no evidence to support this of course, but it's just an opinion.
I agree. Minus that he'd probably show less remorse/restraint than Sanguinius (or the Emperor).
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
The question is not just Martial Prowess, but also outsmarting whom you fight. In this case Horus was an exceptional Fighter even before his fall to Chaos, so with this in mind he was devastating after he sided with Chaos. Russ was also an exceptional fighter with great martial pride and was also very tough aswell. He also had cunning and was not as stupid or reckless as people are led to belive. Sang sacrificed himself so the Emperor could defeat him. Russ wouldnt have done that as his martial pride would have taken over and he would've fought him to the death. Russ would've lost but I belive he would've lasted longer albeit he would not have beaten him though, as Horus had far too much power at this point and only the Might of the Emperor could ever have had a chance in winning.
"You strive for victory. That is obvious. What may be less obvious is the nature of victory. There are circumstances in which you can destroy the enemy utterly, without loss to your own forces, and yet the victory may be his. In all situations, you must first decide on the nature of victory, and then take steps to secure it. Avoid the instinct of fight first and think later." ( Leman Russ )
Omegus wrote: Why would he last longer than Sanguinius? Other than the fact that you play Space Wolves?
For that matter, how would Russ fare against Ka'Bandha?
Russes jimmies would be thoroughly rustled if he went up against KB. Even if on the ground he had a fraction of a chance, which he would, the guy fought like a maniac, Ka could jump up into the sky at any time he wanted and be totally fine
Let it be known that, as Pilau Rice said, Valdor beating Horus in a duel also has never been proven, only claimed.
DarthMarko wrote: Russ shruged fat bastards most powerful Tzeenches imbued psykic attack...and bend him over the knee...
No matter which perspective you choose (and codex or book view ) - end result is the same = red dude in the wheelchair
I like how you use the outdated, legend-based Index Astartes description of the fight, rather than the book one, where Magnus spends most of his fight with the upper hand Russ and the hit to the eye was the result of Russ flailing blindly. Oh, and you ignore how Magnus was also diverting his psychic power towards destroying the surface of Prospero and devastating the Space Wolves legion.
Having a fist driven through your heart, being impaled by a psychic blade, being scalded by Warpfire, and generally battered bloody does not equate to shrugging off.
Also, let it be known that I personally think Leman Russ has a decent chance of taking Ka'Bhanda. Lorgar beat An'ggrath after all.
Void__Dragon wrote: Let it be known that, as Pilau Rice said, Valdor beating Horus in a duel also has never been proven, only claimed.
DarthMarko wrote: Russ shruged fat bastards most powerful Tzeenches imbued psykic attack...and bend him over the knee...
No matter which perspective you choose (and codex or book view ) - end result is the same = red dude in the wheelchair
I like how you use the outdated, legend-based Index Astartes description of the fight, rather than the book one, where Magnus spends most of his fight with the upper hand Russ and the hit to the eye was the result of Russ flailing blindly. Oh, and you ignore how Magnus was also diverting his psychic power towards destroying the surface of Prospero and devastating the Space Wolves legion.
Having a fist driven through your heart, being impaled by a psychic blade, being scalded by Warpfire, and generally battered bloody does not equate to shrugging off.
Also, let it be known that I personally think Leman Russ has a decent chance of taking Ka'Bhanda. Lorgar beat An'ggrath after all.
You also forgot the two enormous thunderwolves that Russ had helping him that got punted into the next county. Anyway, it's pointless to argue with the self-admitted troll. He makes inflammatory remarks like that, and when countered, immediately falls back on the "oh ur a fanboi! i is older and has read moar books then you! i keep citing old WD index astartes articles because I don't realize they are all online and can be double checked and my claims refuted!" line. Seriously, don't bother.
As for Lorgar, considering he impressed even Angron with his new-found martial prowess, and he is the second-strongest psyker among the Primarchs, I would say a fight between him and Russ would be practically even money, with the edge going to Russ due to experience.
Butcher's Nails. In the same book, Lorgar also ruminates on Angron's fate and catches a glimpse of what he will become.
Spoiler:
It's been a while, but IIRC, Lorgar either offers Angron to remove the nails or warns him that they will be the death of him, when he basically gets a text message from Khorne saying "don't feth with my boy, I got big plans for him" and rescinds his offer/warning.
Lorgar's exposure to the Eye/his favored status among the Powers/the arcane lore they funneled into his mind during his pilgrimage seem to give him a certain influence over daemons. Think evil cleric dominating undead.
Beating him with a mace shouldn't have accomplished much, Fulgrim suffered far worse from his own Legion and couldn't care less. Yet the daemon positively cowered and sniveled in front of Lorgar, and begged him to recognize their kinship.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/21 20:59:00
only reason Russ was able to defeat Magnus was because he was cowardly hiding behind sisters of silence all the time, thus forcing him into 1on1 brawl, which was doggies turf, if Magnus could use all his warp powers on him, Russ would be running with tail between his legs in no time
The Sisters were either mostly dead or otherwise preoccupied, since they didn't seem to have much effect (or any) on Magnus' power. The Warp was spilling over Prospero, and Tzeench himself is present. Russ has his own anti-psyker juju anyway.
The rank-and-file Wolves, though, we're losing extremely badly before the Sisters got involved.
I think first and foremost, the idea that the Emperor loves some primarchs more than others is hilariously stupid and i would like a reference on this one.
next, Russ was a savage child and refussed to accept the emperor at first but his tenacity turned sour and he tricked the emperor into even thinking he wasn't his son until he fought with a gambit of pretending to be drunk and suddenly exploding into a fury. I think this similar tactic would have worked on Horus to a degree Sang would have spoke of honor duty and betrayal. I feel like Russ would have started fighting earlier but he would have pretended to be beaten and unleashed a 2nd wind. Ultimately Russ ... or ANY primarch for that matter couldn't have been horus... why? Plot
BUT I think Russ would have given him a run for his money and fought much harder than i can envision the lofy angel man. Again the result would have been the same but GW choose to make sang murdered because not much more speaks of good vs evil when angelmen are dead.
These are glaring generalization but probably true regardless
Flare or Fury take you pick of primarch.
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
sidcom wrote: only reason Russ was able to defeat Magnus was because he was cowardly hiding behind sisters of silence all the time, thus forcing him into 1on1 brawl, which was doggies turf, if Magnus could use all his warp powers on him, Russ would be running with tail between his legs in no time
Magnus seems largely immune to the effects Blanks have on normal psykers.
Even that huge ass mountain that was basically a giant Warp deadzone could not block Magnus's power.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: I think first and foremost, the idea that the Emperor loves some primarchs more than others is hilariously stupid and i would like a reference on this one.
next, Russ was a savage child and refussed to accept the emperor at first but his tenacity turned sour and he tricked the emperor into even thinking he wasn't his son until he fought with a gambit of pretending to be drunk and suddenly exploding into a fury. I think this similar tactic would have worked on Horus to a degree Sang would have spoke of honor duty and betrayal. I feel like Russ would have started fighting earlier but he would have pretended to be beaten and unleashed a 2nd wind. Ultimately Russ ... or ANY primarch for that matter couldn't have been horus... why? Plot
BUT I think Russ would have given him a run for his money and fought much harder than i can envision the lofy angel man. Again the result would have been the same but GW choose to make sang murdered because not much more speaks of good vs evil when angelmen are dead.
These are glaring generalization but probably true regardless
Flare or Fury take you pick of primarch.
That is my point of the thread - Russ had some kind of dirty cunning (that's why I love him some much) and he could go against any primarch and use it...
It's even stated in TS on Nikea - While Russ was always searching weakness, Sang was always searching for a strength (that's why Sang is good guy and Russ was executioner),I love Sang but he was just to good for 30k...
P.S. Ty you for Intelligent reply
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/25 13:20:17
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
" - Big-Mek Wurrzog
List of Da Propahly Zogged!!! 
