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Russ was not the only Primarch to not accept the Emperor when they first met him. Vulkan, Mortarion and Angron all railed against the Emperor before they bowed to him.

That tactic would have had no effect on Horus. Horus knew his brothers better than any others and he too possessed a natural cunning. Who was it that duped Russ into attacking the Thousand Sons with such ferocity.

Sanguinius had the distinct advantage of being able to fly, the images we have from The Outcast Dead and Fear to Tread seem to show him darting about. If he had met Horus head on the fight would have been over quicker, Horus was a monster at this time.

Russ did not exactly find Magnus a push over on Prospero and by the time Horus and Russ would have met, Horus would have transcended the power of Magnus.

Okay, so we've discussed Sang Vs Russ... But you're all forgetting who Horus is.... He was THE single most trusted and powerful marine theEmporer created, thus explaining how the Heresy was as effective as it was. Horus would have gone toe to toe with any Loyalist Primarch and the outcomewould hae been the same. Mabe if Russ and Sang had both engaged Horus.... And also another factor to consider is that Horus was imbued with the Dark Powers of the Chaos Gods, who each united behind Horus, an Emporer/Saint is powerful... But a God wil outmatch him any day of the week.... And so ends my input. I hope it hs balanced out the argument slightly.

Dave

I think thats been the general agreement. Horus could fight and win against anything in the galaxy bar the Emperor at the peak of his powers

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
I think thats been the general agreement. Horus could fight and win against anything in the galaxy bar the Emperor at the peak of his powers

Yep but I compare Sang because he wasn't dirty enough to fight Mr Devil Himself and like Mek said - Bl or GW showed what they think of angels by making a short work of him..Sad but thats 30k,btw I never once said Horus wouldn't win,just that Russ would be a lot tougher to chew and beloved Sanguinius couldn't fly much on a space ship....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
I think thats been the general agreement. Horus could fight and win against anything in the galaxy bar the Emperor at the peak of his powers

Yep but I compare Sang because he wasn't dirty enough to fight Mr Devil Himself and like Mek said - Bl or GW showed what they think of angels by making a short work of him..Sad but thats 30k,btw I never once said Horus wouldn't win,just that Russ would be a lot tougher to chew and beloved Sanguinius couldn't fly much on a space ship....

Sanguinius was more skilled then Russ. Sure, Russ is a drunken space-viking that goes really angry, but he was less agile.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
I think thats been the general agreement. Horus could fight and win against anything in the galaxy bar the Emperor at the peak of his powers

Yep but I compare Sang because he wasn't dirty enough to fight Mr Devil Himself and like Mek said - Bl or GW showed what they think of angels by making a short work of him..Sad but thats 30k,btw I never once said Horus wouldn't win,just that Russ would be a lot tougher to chew and beloved Sanguinius couldn't fly much on a space ship....

Sanguinius was more skilled then Russ. Sure, Russ is a drunken space-viking that goes really angry, but he was less agile.

This is cannon, it was said that Horus and Sangy were the only two primarchs who could beat Angron one on one

Considering the grand scale of everything in 40K, I'm sure he would have plenty of space to use his wings, it just wouldn't matter.

Anyway, from the HH novels, Russ isn't shown to be an amazing 1v1 combatant. He is a cunning and ferocious warrior, but when other Primarchs speak of the best among them, his name doesn't really come up. If we think back, he fought the Lion to a stand-still, and the Lion was punked by Curze. Curze was more or less on the level of Corax, who was terrified to death of Angron, and felt only Sanguinius and Horus would stand a chance against him.

After all, Russ struggled against Magnus, who was just a big pansy after all, right?

I think that the SW were the perfect legion to go against the TS. They were smart and cunning, but they were also determined to fill out their job. The BA might have fought less ferociously for fear of damaging the hallowed knowledge on prospero, but the Wolves knew that it wasn't as important. That being said, Sanguinius could have beaten Magnus just as hard if not harder

 TheAngrySquig wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
I think thats been the general agreement. Horus could fight and win against anything in the galaxy bar the Emperor at the peak of his powers

Yep but I compare Sang because he wasn't dirty enough to fight Mr Devil Himself and like Mek said - Bl or GW showed what they think of angels by making a short work of him..Sad but thats 30k,btw I never once said Horus wouldn't win,just that Russ would be a lot tougher to chew and beloved Sanguinius couldn't fly much on a space ship....

Sanguinius was more skilled then Russ. Sure, Russ is a drunken space-viking that goes really angry, but he was less agile.

This is cannon, it was said that Horus and Sangy were the only two primarchs who could beat Angron one on one

If you are referring to the musings of Corax in Ravens Flight then he changes his tune in Deliverance Lost, and that's all it is in Ravens Flight, a musing. Vulkan might not agree, or Dorn might have a different opinion.

With the Primarhs there is no definitive clear winner, one is not better than the other. But Horus at end of the Heresy before he fought the Emperor was the most powerful being in existence, behind or equal to the Emperor. We do not know how powerful Horus becomes in the Heresy series but from what we do have, we now he is a beast.

If the Horus armour in the new Imperial Armour Heresy book is anything to go by

EDIT: Removed image and amended sentence

The Emperors psychic powers wouldn't have done much good and this to me is a good indication that Sanguinius sacrifice did achieve something and there was a chink made in Horus Armour.

 Omegus wrote:
Considering the grand scale of everything in 40K, I'm sure he would have plenty of space to use his wings, it just wouldn't matter.

He's able to keep out of Horus reach, it's when Horus is able to lay hands on Sanguinius and chokes him to death that he has a problem, being his death.

 Omegus wrote:
After all, Russ struggled against Magnus, who was just a big pansy after all, right?

A point I also made earlier.

 Omegus wrote:
Considering the grand scale of everything in 40K, I'm sure he would have plenty of space to use his wings, it just wouldn't matter.

Anyway, from the HH novels, Russ isn't shown to be an amazing 1v1 combatant. He is a cunning and ferocious warrior, but when other Primarchs speak of the best among them, his name doesn't really come up. If we think back, he fought the Lion to a stand-still, and the Lion was punked by Curze. Curze was more or less on the level of Corax, who was terrified to death of Angron, and felt only Sanguinius and Horus would stand a chance against him.

After all, Russ struggled against Magnus, who was just a big pansy after all, right?

Magnus wasn't pansy, not at all - pit Angron against him -strange but I think Magnus would kill him ...Why? IMHO Angron would go TO MUCH bezerk ,while Magnus would stay cool and smart...
with primarchs there isn't A>B>C - A>C - just like ADB said on his blog...Sanguinius is more Agile but Russ is more tougher so it's very depends on other factors (fear,rage, fighting arena,motive etc.) There are different RPG elements on every primarch....so it really depends...


Pilau Rice you read my mind second time...

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think that the SW were the perfect legion to go against the TS. They were smart and cunning, but they were also determined to fill out their job. The BA might have fought less ferociously for fear of damaging the hallowed knowledge on prospero, but the Wolves knew that it wasn't as important. That being said, Sanguinius could have beaten Magnus just as hard if not harder

The thing is, if it were the BA and Sanguinius who were sent after Magnus, the burning of Prospero would have never happened. The Blood Angels wouldn't roll up on an undefended planet belonging to their brothers, and then just start exterminating every living thing in sight. Even if Horus gave the kill order, Sanguinius would still try to talk to Magnus and get him to come back willingly.

If they were to fight, I agree, Sanguinius would probably win, but it depends on just how resistant Russ really was to psychic powers. If it was a significant level of resistance, without that additional layer of protection, Sanguinius could very well find himself plucked.

Pilau Rice wrote:
The Emperors psychic powers wouldn't have done much good and this to me is a good indication that Sanguinius sacrifice did achieve something and there was a chink made in Horus Armour.

Exactly, the whole "disrupting the hexagrammic wards/protective runes/whatever" thing I mentioned earlier.

Well it isn't just "disrupting the hexagrammic wards" (it's just silly for me),it's like putting a shade on whole Emperor loved Horus thingy and his psykic might...

btw I' dont know why are people using that one liner rant from Corax to compare primarchs...Like Rice said some Primarchs would have different opinion...

 Omegus wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think that the SW were the perfect legion to go against the TS. They were smart and cunning, but they were also determined to fill out their job. The BA might have fought less ferociously for fear of damaging the hallowed knowledge on prospero, but the Wolves knew that it wasn't as important. That being said, Sanguinius could have beaten Magnus just as hard if not harder

The thing is, if it were the BA and Sanguinius who were sent after Magnus, the burning of Prospero would have never happened. The Blood Angels wouldn't roll up on an undefended planet belonging to their brothers, and then just start exterminating every living thing in sight. Even if Horus gave the kill order, Sanguinius would still try to talk to Magnus and get him to come back willingly.

If they were to fight, I agree, Sanguinius would probably win, but it depends on just how resistant Russ really was to psychic powers. If it was a significant level of resistance, without that additional layer of protection, Sanguinius could very well find himself plucked.

I think Sanguinius had a similar resistance to psychic powers as Russ. Something to do with each Primarch being carried by a different Chaos God. Khorne took Sangy, Khan, Lion, Dorn, Angron, Russ, and Kurze. Tzeentch took Magnus, Alpharius, Corax, Guilliman, and Lorgar. Nurgle took Mortarion, Perterabo, Ferrus Manus, and Vulkan. Slaanesh took Fulgrim and Horus. Idk if thats cannon or a fan thing, but I remember hearing about it somewhere

DarthMarko wrote:
and sang had 3 major fights - first he lost, second he won, and the third he lost..so I don't think he is the best fighter - Fulgrim would make him a new one any day of the week

He won the first fight, too, and was about to finish the daemon off, when it played the old "haha, your bestest friend and brother betrayed your darkest secret and is plotting to kill your father, neener neener!" ploy, and used the moment of shock/hesitation to unleash a pulse from the ragefire to knock Sanguinius down. In their second find, the daemon didn't have any crazy revelations/ragefires to help him out, and even though Sanguinius was wounded and had been fighting all day, the birdman stomped the the bat again.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
I think Sanguinius had a similar resistance to psychic powers as Russ. Something to do with each Primarch being carried by a different Chaos God. Khorne took Sangy, Khan, Lion, Dorn, Angron, Russ, and Kurze. Tzeentch took Magnus, Alpharius, Corax, Guilliman, and Lorgar. Nurgle took Mortarion, Perterabo, Ferrus Manus, and Vulkan. Slaanesh took Fulgrim and Horus. Idk if thats cannon or a fan thing, but I remember hearing about it somewhere

Well, Russ had the "advantage" of having dog DNA, for whatever that's worth.

and Magnus had a Chaos God at his side - so they are even...

 Omegus wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
I think Sanguinius had a similar resistance to psychic powers as Russ. Something to do with each Primarch being carried by a different Chaos God. Khorne took Sangy, Khan, Lion, Dorn, Angron, Russ, and Kurze. Tzeentch took Magnus, Alpharius, Corax, Guilliman, and Lorgar. Nurgle took Mortarion, Perterabo, Ferrus Manus, and Vulkan. Slaanesh took Fulgrim and Horus. Idk if thats cannon or a fan thing, but I remember hearing about it somewhere

Well, Russ had the "advantage" of having dog DNA, for whatever that's worth.

Clearly it gives him the advantage. Tzeentch, who was fueling Magnus' already insane power, looked upon Russ and couldn't supply as much power as he would have in any normal fight. Why was this? Nobody quite knows, but it is said that through the cacophony of the Warp, the Emperor heard a voice saying "Aww look at the cutsie widdle puppy, who's such a good boy?" with no explanation.

Squig you're a funny guy...but the fact stays - Snoop vs Magnus and Tzeench - Snoop wins (and roles a fat one aftewards)

DarthMarko wrote:and Magnus had a Chaos God at his side - so they are even...

From what we see in the book, Magnus rejected Tzeench's advances (otherwise Russ and his whole Legion would be warp dust) until he spoke the final supplication that transported him and his Sons to the planet of the Sorcerers. Given the bitterness between the two brothers, I think Magnus would probably want to handle this one on his own, rather than running for help to the being he just realized set all this up. We could just as easily say Tzeench was behind the (lucky?) swing that damaged Magnus' eye, considering he orchestrated the whole thing and everything went "just as planned".

Magnus didn't step out of his tower because he suddenly felt absolved of his guilt, he stepped out seething over his brother seemingly taking such relish in destroying his beautiful world, killing all of his people, and burning every scrap of hard-earned knowledge. He is furious at the same judgmental attitude that almost saw them come to blows on Shrike, or that Sanguinius mentions in Fear to Tread.

DarthMarko wrote:Squig you're a funny guy...but the fact stays - Snoop vs Magnus and Tzeench - Snoop wins (and roles a fat one aftewards)

Snoop Dogg or Snoop Lion? If its the latter, he already had a few rolled and Magnus and Tzeench die from all the second-hand smoke.

Dave, Master of Muppets wrote:
Okay, so we've discussed Sang Vs Russ... But you're all forgetting who Horus is.... He was THE single most trusted and powerful marine theEmporer created, thus explaining how the Heresy was as effective as it was. Horus would have gone toe to toe with any Loyalist Primarch and the outcomewould hae been the same. Mabe if Russ and Sang had both engaged Horus.... And also another factor to consider is that Horus was imbued with the Dark Powers of the Chaos Gods, who each united behind Horus, an Emporer/Saint is powerful... But a God wil outmatch him any day of the week.... And so ends my input. I hope it hs balanced out the argument slightly.

Dave

Horus honestly doesn't seem to be anything special combat-wise in the HH series, psychically Lorgar, who is demonstratively inferior to Magnus, makes Horus his nancy.

But with the buff from Chaos, no Primarch can touch him, Russ goes down just as easily as Sanguinius did.

Hm I think not - (codex disagrees)IMHO first call to Tzeench was when he stepped up in slippers to face the music...anyway we can't know when he was on energy chaos drink... Accoriding to old codex I like to think he was gone to chaos moments before the title match....btw I emphasize "that's my opinion"

btw that punch in the eye could only be from cunning Russ who was always watching weaknesses like no other primarchs (according to book) - Well damn me if I say this, but pit any other primarch against Magnus (except maybe Curze or Dark Elf Fulgrim) they are toast....

He was ready to throw down with Russ on Shrike without anyone's help.

From what I can recall, the fight was basically a bunch of pyrotechnics and explosions DBZ style, with only glimpses of the combatants. From what we see, it goes down something like this:

Magnus punches Russ' breastplate into Russ' heart.
Russ shatters Magnus' arm.
Magnus creates a psionic blade and stabs Russ in the chest.
Russ cries out in pain and his two giant wolves jump on Magnus.
Magnus dispatches the wolves.
There's a flash of light and Russ cries out in pain again, but throws out a swing that catches Magnus in the eye.
Magnus reels back, regenerating his arm and eye, his psionic mantle temporarily down.
Battered Russ takes advantage of this opportunity to rush Magnus and go all Zangief on his ass.
Russ grabs his sword again to finish Magnus off, but Magnus casts his spell and dissolves.

Just like we don't know whether Magnus was sippin' on that Chaos sizzurp, we don't know whether Russ got a lucky hit in, whether it was guided by Tzeench, or whether it was intentional. The latter is certainly possible, since the "blind flailing" was seen from Ahriman's point of view, who is hardly a master of close combat to be able to judge a Primarch.

As for the codex disagreeing, we have to determine which sources we are using for our discussion. The latest codex is silent on the subject, glossing over the Wolves' role in the Horus Heresy in a few paragraphs. The 3rd edition book mentions nothing about it. I sadly don't have the 2nd edition book handy, and I vaguely remember something in the old SW Index Astartes about Magnus beseeching Tzeench for help, but he was also a real cyclops back then, too.

I have the 2nd edition Codex at home. When I get back at the end of next week I'll look it up.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think that the SW were the perfect legion to go against the TS. They were smart and cunning, but they were also determined to fill out their job. The BA might have fought less ferociously for fear of damaging the hallowed knowledge on prospero, but the Wolves knew that it wasn't as important. That being said, Sanguinius could have beaten Magnus just as hard if not harder

The thing is, if it were the BA and Sanguinius who were sent after Magnus, the burning of Prospero would have never happened. The Blood Angels wouldn't roll up on an undefended planet belonging to their brothers, and then just start exterminating every living thing in sight. Even if Horus gave the kill order, Sanguinius would still try to talk to Magnus and get him to come back willingly.

If they were to fight, I agree, Sanguinius would probably win, but it depends on just how resistant Russ really was to psychic powers. If it was a significant level of resistance, without that additional layer of protection, Sanguinius could very well find himself plucked.

I think Sanguinius had a similar resistance to psychic powers as Russ. Something to do with each Primarch being carried by a different Chaos God. Khorne took Sangy, Khan, Lion, Dorn, Angron, Russ, and Kurze. Tzeentch took Magnus, Alpharius, Corax, Guilliman, and Lorgar. Nurgle took Mortarion, Perterabo, Ferrus Manus, and Vulkan. Slaanesh took Fulgrim and Horus. Idk if thats cannon or a fan thing, but I remember hearing about it somewhere

It's likely that all the Primarchs had some form of resistance to psychic powers, if the events in Reflection Crack'd are anything to go by a Primarch can shrug off possession pretty easily, which is no simple feat. If Horus armour is anything to go by, it's likely that, the Emperor knowing of psychic powers, had each suit of power armour with this in mind. Think of Auramagma's attack against Russ, it rebounded off his armour and burnt him to a crisp.

 Omegus wrote:

As for the codex disagreeing, we have to determine which sources we are using for our discussion. The latest codex is silent on the subject, glossing over the Wolves' role in the Horus Heresy in a few paragraphs. The 3rd edition book mentions nothing about it. I sadly don't have the 2nd edition book handy, and I vaguely remember something in the old SW Index Astartes about Magnus beseeching Tzeench for help, but he was also a real cyclops back then, too.

Well, each telling is correct i guess, from the view of a Space Wolf. If there was a Codex: Thousand Sons I'm sure the story would favour their Primarch and tell the story in a different light, much like the Index Astartes articles.

Sanguinius being less resistant to psyking?
Dude, he was an awsome psyker himself!

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It's likely that all the Primarchs had some form of resistance to psychic powers, if the events in Reflection Crack'd are anything to go by a Primarch can shrug off possession pretty easily, which is no simple feat. If Horus armour is anything to go by, it's likely that, the Emperor knowing of psychic powers, had each suit of power armour with this in mind. Think of Auramagma's attack against Russ, it rebounded off his armour and burnt him to a crisp.

Every Primarch has enormous psychic potential, and similarly, a great deal of resistance to psychic powers.

Though, I wouldn't really take the abilities of Horus's armour seriously, in the context of the HH series. That fancy armour did nothing to stop Lorgar from psychically controlling him (Though, I can't recall if he was wearing his Terminator armour in Aurelian).

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It's likely that all the Primarchs had some form of resistance to psychic powers, if the events in Reflection Crack'd are anything to go by a Primarch can shrug off possession pretty easily, which is no simple feat. If Horus armour is anything to go by, it's likely that, the Emperor knowing of psychic powers, had each suit of power armour with this in mind. Think of Auramagma's attack against Russ, it rebounded off his armour and burnt him to a crisp.

True enough. Then again, the Emperor knew about Chaos, too, yet chose to take no precautions. Of course, if you buy the whole idea that the Emperor struck a deal with the Chaos Gods to make the Primarchs, one of the deal's stipulations could be to let the Primarchs choose their own fate. Maybe that's why the Heresy happened the way it did even though the Emperor was fully aware of that possibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Though, I wouldn't really take the abilities of Horus's armour seriously, in the context of the HH series. That fancy armour did nothing to stop Lorgar from psychically controlling him (Though, I can't recall if he was wearing his Terminator armour in Aurelian).

Unlike his Legion’s sea-green
ceramite, Horus stood clad in layered, dense armour of charcoal
black, adorned with the glaring cadmium Eye of Terra on his
breastplate. This last sigil, the symbol of his authority as master
of the Imperium’s armies, had its black core refashioned into a
slitted serpent’s pupil.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Sanguinius being less resistant to psyking?
Dude, he was an awsome psyker himself!

He had visions, not actual battle magic. Which actually probably added to the resistance, sort of a Warp callous

Sang had just gotten out of a fight with the greatest of Khornes blodthirsters. He wasn't up to a serious throwdown at that point. So I don't think it was a good test of his true combat capabilities. That being said, there was no loyalist primarch (even on there best day) that was gonna beat Thee Arch Traitor.

Russ's results wouldn't have been any better. Horus LET Sang come to him. Sang was Horus's favorite brother, one of his inner circle said that in the first or second book. More over Sang was a mutant and the 2nd most powerful psycher next to Magnus. Horus wanted him on his side, believed with the power of all the gods of chaos he could bend the mutant Sang to his will. Horus was unable to break him. I don't know if Russ could have resisted that, the price of wich was eternal, debalitating madness for all future inheritors of his gene seed.

I'd say Lorgar is probably the most powerful psyker of the Primarchs short of Magnus. Even before his psychic powers fully blossomed after his battle with Corax, he was capable of impressive feats like devouring the psychic messages sent by an Astropath and manipulating them. For his underlings to achieve the same effect in his absence, they had to regularly and ritually sacrifice many psykers.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
He had visions, not actual battle magic. Which actually probably added to the resistance, sort of a Warp callous

He wields a Force Sword, so he seems to be capable of using his psyker abilities in battle.

New scenario:

Full on feral Russ battered and bruised comes on top, kills Horus, Emperor arrives to find the really-savage (it was full on instinct or death in that fight) Wolf-Primarch sitting in a pool of his favorite son's blood and blames him for executing and not trying to bring back Horus from Chaos...

What happens next?