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Assuming that scenario really could ever occur (It wouldn't, Leman Russ is nothing compared to Horus with the full backing of Chaos), the Emperor proceeds to kill Leman Russ.

The Emperor has beaten him before in purely physical combat, going all-out? Lol.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
He had visions, not actual battle magic. Which actually probably added to the resistance, sort of a Warp callous

He wields a Force Sword, so he seems to be capable of using his psyker abilities in battle.

A force sword is an energy channel. You dont need to be able to use battle magic for that

 Dakkadood wrote:
New scenario:

Full on feral Russ battered and bruised comes on top, kills Horus, Emperor arrives to find the really-savage (it was full on instinct or death in that fight) Wolf-Primarch sitting in a pool of his favorite son's blood and blames him for executing and not trying to bring back Horus from Chaos...

What happens next?

Wolves join chaos, end of story


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Dakkadood wrote:
New scenario:

Full on feral Russ battered and bruised comes on top, kills Horus, Emperor arrives to find the really-savage (it was full on instinct or death in that fight) Wolf-Primarch sitting in a pool of his favorite son's blood and blames him for executing and not trying to bring back Horus from Chaos...

What happens next?

Wolves join chaos, end of story

according to the storys though Leman russ was only beaten by the emperor because Leman was drunk and stuffed from food, though it was probably just a child making excuses. All and all Leman would have been a much cooler slug-fest

 Omegus wrote:

True enough. Then again, the Emperor knew about Chaos, too, yet chose to take no precautions. Of course, if you buy the whole idea that the Emperor struck a deal with the Chaos Gods to make the Primarchs, one of the deal's stipulations could be to let the Primarchs choose their own fate. Maybe that's why the Heresy happened the way it did even though the Emperor was fully aware of that possibility.

I think that this is in a way, what the chaos powers wanted. Imagine if the Primarchs had never left Terra and the Emperor had been able to mould each to his own designs, if the Primarchs were as doggedly loyal to him as the Custodian.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

according to the storys though Leman russ was only beaten by the emperor because Leman was drunk and stuffed from food, though it was probably just a child making excuses. All and all Leman would have been a much cooler slug-fest

If he was not to be given the chance, how could he prove his mettle? If all that would greet him was derision and scornful laughter. How could he welcome this warrior, so fond of his mead, as his lost child? Driven by disappointment, the wanderer called Leman Russ a drunkard and a glutton, Able to achieve nothing more than filling his face and bellowing hollow boasts.

The Wanderer is the Emperor, he derided Russ to try and get him into a fight that he could win, rather than who's the biggest pie eating booze hound.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

True enough. Then again, the Emperor knew about Chaos, too, yet chose to take no precautions. Of course, if you buy the whole idea that the Emperor struck a deal with the Chaos Gods to make the Primarchs, one of the deal's stipulations could be to let the Primarchs choose their own fate. Maybe that's why the Heresy happened the way it did even though the Emperor was fully aware of that possibility.

I think that this is in a way, what the chaos powers wanted. Imagine if the Primarchs had never left Terra and the Emperor had been able to mould each to his own designs, if the Primarchs were as doggedly loyal to him as the Custodian.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

according to the storys though Leman russ was only beaten by the emperor because Leman was drunk and stuffed from food, though it was probably just a child making excuses. All and all Leman would have been a much cooler slug-fest

If he was not to be given the chance, how could he prove his mettle? If all that would greet him was derision and scornful laughter. How could he welcome this warrior, so fond of his mead, as his lost child? Driven by disappointment, the wanderer called Leman Russ a drunkard and a glutton, Able to achieve nothing more than filling his face and bellowing hollow boasts.

The Wanderer is the Emperor, he derided Russ to try and get him into a fight that he could win, rather than who's the biggest pie eating booze hound.

exactly, yet strangely we find his children being the best and most fercious of all space marines in CC perhaps other than BA and grey knights and even then I would say they are blow for blow equals. Regardless of character flaws or backgrounds Leman was a rivaled brother to Sang and their main differences where not how well they fought but HOW they fought. Horus was suppose to be uber leet and no primarch could beat him so simply as a 1 on 1. BUT if you were to ask me who would take more with him before dying? Probably Leman because he wouldn't care if he had to kill another one of his primarch bothers if it meant the tennat he learned of Fenris; Survival. Meanwhile Sang would have been more concerned with the ramifications of killing one of the emperors favored sons and his well being.

The idea of the primarchs is great an all but someone had to loose trying to bash Leman isn't making any better of a case for him putting up as good of a fight. He was a viking while sang was a christian that is about the main difference between these two children of humanity. they acted according to their faiths persay. One would dispair at the corruption of Horus the other would worry about killing him before giving him a forethought. Neither one would have been victorious but just saying.

Hm - Russ going WULFEN scenario - maybe then he could rip warmasters head or do more damage...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakkadood wrote:
New scenario:

Full on feral Russ battered and bruised comes on top, kills Horus, Emperor arrives to find the really-savage (it was full on instinct or death in that fight) Wolf-Primarch sitting in a pool of his favorite son's blood and blames him for executing and not trying to bring back Horus from Chaos...

What happens next?

powerfist again...

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

exactly, yet strangely we find his children being the best and most fercious of all space marines in CC perhaps other than BA and grey knights and even then I would say they are blow for blow equals. Regardless of character flaws or backgrounds Leman was a rivaled brother to Sang and their main differences where not how well they fought but HOW they fought. Horus was suppose to be uber leet and no primarch could beat him so simply as a 1 on 1. BUT if you were to ask me who would take more with him before dying? Probably Leman because he wouldn't care if he had to kill another one of his primarch bothers if it meant the tennat he learned of Fenris; Survival. Meanwhile Sang would have been more concerned with the ramifications of killing one of the emperors favored sons and his well being.

The idea of the primarchs is great an all but someone had to loose trying to bash Leman isn't making any better of a case for him putting up as good of a fight. He was a viking while sang was a christian that is about the main difference between these two children of humanity. they acted according to their faiths persay. One would dispair at the corruption of Horus the other would worry about killing him before giving him a forethought. Neither one would have been victorious but just saying.

If anything a pissed off Sanguinius is more deadly than a pissed off Russ. Russ is quick to anger and wears it on his sleeve, Sanguinius is a volcano, after Fear to Tread, he's totally miffed. I think as well that Angrons butchers are more ferocious than the Sons of Russ.

Your point on Russ beating Horus might be true if it was just Horus, but it isn't, it's Horus with 4 Chaos Gods at his back and lord knows what other Warp Entities wanted a piece of the action.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

exactly, yet strangely we find his children being the best and most fercious of all space marines in CC perhaps other than BA and grey knights and even then I would say they are blow for blow equals. Regardless of character flaws or backgrounds Leman was a rivaled brother to Sang and their main differences where not how well they fought but HOW they fought. Horus was suppose to be uber leet and no primarch could beat him so simply as a 1 on 1. BUT if you were to ask me who would take more with him before dying? Probably Leman because he wouldn't care if he had to kill another one of his primarch bothers if it meant the tennat he learned of Fenris; Survival. Meanwhile Sang would have been more concerned with the ramifications of killing one of the emperors favored sons and his well being.

The idea of the primarchs is great an all but someone had to loose trying to bash Leman isn't making any better of a case for him putting up as good of a fight. He was a viking while sang was a christian that is about the main difference between these two children of humanity. they acted according to their faiths persay. One would dispair at the corruption of Horus the other would worry about killing him before giving him a forethought. Neither one would have been victorious but just saying.

If anything a pissed off Sanguinius is more deadly than a pissed off Russ. Russ is quick to anger and wears it on his sleeve, Sanguinius is a volcano, after Fear to Tread, he's totally miffed. I think as well that Angrons butchers are more ferocious than the Sons of Russ.

Your point on Russ beating Horus might be true if it was just Horus, but it isn't, it's Horus with 4 Chaos Gods at his back and lord knows what other Warp Entities wanted a piece of the action.

Well you opinion for the SW is well known so http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

exactly, yet strangely we find his children being the best and most fercious of all space marines in CC perhaps other than BA and grey knights and even then I would say they are blow for blow equals. Regardless of character flaws or backgrounds Leman was a rivaled brother to Sang and their main differences where not how well they fought but HOW they fought. Horus was suppose to be uber leet and no primarch could beat him so simply as a 1 on 1. BUT if you were to ask me who would take more with him before dying? Probably Leman because he wouldn't care if he had to kill another one of his primarch bothers if it meant the tennat he learned of Fenris; Survival. Meanwhile Sang would have been more concerned with the ramifications of killing one of the emperors favored sons and his well being.

The idea of the primarchs is great an all but someone had to loose trying to bash Leman isn't making any better of a case for him putting up as good of a fight. He was a viking while sang was a christian that is about the main difference between these two children of humanity. they acted according to their faiths persay. One would dispair at the corruption of Horus the other would worry about killing him before giving him a forethought. Neither one would have been victorious but just saying.

If anything a pissed off Sanguinius is more deadly than a pissed off Russ. Russ is quick to anger and wears it on his sleeve, Sanguinius is a volcano, after Fear to Tread, he's totally miffed. I think as well that Angrons butchers are more ferocious than the Sons of Russ.

Your point on Russ beating Horus might be true if it was just Horus, but it isn't, it's Horus with 4 Chaos Gods at his back and lord knows what other Warp Entities wanted a piece of the action.

Well you opinion for the SW is well known so http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

My opinion on the Space Wolves is no different from from that of any other Chapter or Legion and each have the same amount scrutiny applied to them. If there is evidence for or against I will use it and apply it where necessary, the events involving Leman Russ strongly suggest that he would do no better than Sanguinius did against Horus.

I actually use the full resources of material I have available to me, not just the bits that portray a Legion or Chapter at their best.

Pilau's right. He's about the most objective poster in this subforum IMHO.

Darth, you appear to be biased towards Space Wolves, whilst Omegus/Void Dragon/Tadashi are favoured towards Thousand Sons and against Space Wolves.
That's how I see it.

Personally, I'm a Space Wolves fan, but that doesn't mean I can't try and be objective and understand the opinion of others.

 Just Dave wrote:
Pilau's right. He's about the most objective poster in this subforum IMHO.

Darth, you appear to be biased towards Space Wolves, whilst Omegus/Void Dragon/Tadashi are favoured towards Thousand Sons and against Space Wolves.
That's how I see it.

Personally, I'm a Space Wolves fan, but that doesn't mean I can't try and be objective and understand the opinion of others.

No,he's OK, just somethimes I think he is too harsh with his pragmatism and somethimes likes to point something up with a negative connotation - but I do respect his opinion
- just I don't agree with him on the impartial basis - that's the problem...It's not just our beloved wolves - It's basically whole damn 40k:-) but again it's internet - people tend to disagree..

P.S. Tadashi is cool - he is a TS fan and him and me are agreeing on a regular basis...

 RedAngel wrote:
Sang had just gotten out of a fight with the greatest of Khornes blodthirsters. He wasn't up to a serious throwdown at that point. So I don't think it was a good test of his true combat capabilities. That being said, there was no loyalist primarch (even on there best day) that was gonna beat Thee Arch Traitor.

Russ's results wouldn't have been any better. Horus LET Sang come to him. Sang was Horus's favorite brother, one of his inner circle said that in the first or second book. More over Sang was a mutant and the 2nd most powerful psycher next to Magnus. Horus wanted him on his side, believed with the power of all the gods of chaos he could bend the mutant Sang to his will. Horus was unable to break him. I don't know if Russ could have resisted that, the price of wich was eternal, debalitating madness for all future inheritors of his gene seed.

None of that is true. Sanguinius' psychic powers are relatively passive, channeling energy through his sword being the extent of it. Lorgar would take the 2nd place spot.

As for Horus wanting to turn his brother, he actually actively sabotaged the plan that could have brought the entire Blood Angels Legion over to Chaos (it is hinted he did so because he did not want the competition/felt threatened by Sanguinius unlike any of his other brothers). And I think Russ would be even more unlikely to turn against the Emperor, considering he has additional DNA splicing to make him particularly loyal, and Sanguinius could be manipulated via his sentimentality (he was ready to sacrifice himself to become the Red Angel in order to save his Legion).

And that sentimentality is probably why it would have been terrible if Russ was the one to find Horus on his flagship. Sanguinius knew he was walking to his death, and concentrated on putting the chink in Horus' defenses. He sacrificed himself to give the Emperor his chance at victory. Russ, on the other hand, would not fight with such considerations in mind. He would be fighting to win, pure and simple. The battle may last longer, but the end result would be the same, except now Horus would have no weakness to exploit.

 Dakkadood wrote:
New scenario:

Full on feral Russ battered and bruised comes on top, kills Horus, Emperor arrives to find the really-savage (it was full on instinct or death in that fight) Wolf-Primarch sitting in a pool of his favorite son's blood and blames him for executing and not trying to bring back Horus from Chaos...

What happens next?

Russ isn't Wolverine, nor is he a werewolf.

...

That'd be a fight to see though - one of the cc Primarchs vs Wolverine.
Preferably from a safe distance, say, a the next continent or a geostationary orbit.
And for the title fight, Magneto vs Horus. My money's on Mags.

 Omegus wrote:

As for Horus wanting to turn his brother, he actually actively sabotaged the plan that could have brought the entire Blood Angels Legion over to Chaos (it is hinted he did so because he did not want the competition/felt threatened by Sanguinius unlike any of his other brothers). And I think Russ would be even more unlikely to turn against the Emperor, considering he has additional DNA splicing to make him particularly loyal, and Sanguinius could be manipulated via his sentimentality (he was ready to sacrifice himself to become the Red Angel in order to save his Legion).

I definitely think that this is the case at the time of Fear to Tread, but as Horus victory is slipping through his fingers at the time of the Siege of the Place, he did try to bring Sanguinius on board as a last resort, whether this is out of love for Sanguinius or fear that somehow he could be defeated by him, we don't know yet. Imagine the implications it would have had if Sanguinius had sided with Horus.

Also that point about Russ is a pretty good too.

 DarthMarko wrote:


No,he's OK, just somethimes I think he is too harsh with his pragmatism and somethimes likes to point something up with a negative connotation - but I do respect his opinion
- just I don't agree with him on the impartial basis - that's the problem...It's not just our beloved wolves - It's basically whole damn 40k:-) but again it's internet - people tend to disagree..

I might have missed your point here but the reason why I might seem critical is because the Wolves and Thousand Sons are the most talked about Legions on this forum, barring maybe the Blood Ravens.

Maybe if we talked about the Best Legions out there, the Emperors Children or the Imperial Fists, you would see a difference

Would you also have everyone agree all the time? What would the point of this forum be if we all were in accord on every subject, there would be no point to it

I think Sanguinius is 10x more emphatic and emotional than Horus so he would be a greater prize for the Chaos if he could be turned + he could probably channel more warp energy being a potent psyker...but Horus "I think" never considered Sanguinius as competition in chaos chair... Ranting of a deamon in "Fear to tread" cool Horus just replayed that he is going to kill Sang himself if he could not be turned - and he did....

There is a lot of deamon trash talk which can be looked in a dual manner - like that - when deamon presenting himself as Tzennch tells Magnus that he was a first choice for leading chaos NOT HORUS - I can agree - but also not...

 DarthMarko wrote:
I think Sanguinius is 10x more emphatic and emotional than Horus so he would be a greater prize for the Chaos if he could be turned + he could probably channel more warp energy being a potent psyker...but Horus "I think" never considered Sanguinius as competition in chaos chair... Ranting of a deamon in "Fear to tread" cool Horus just replayed that he is going to kill Sang himself if he could not be turned - and he did....

There is a lot of deamon trash talk which can be looked in a dual manner - like that - when deamon presenting himself as Tzennch tells Magnus that he was a first choice for leading chaos NOT HORUS - I can agree - but also not...

I don't think it's competition, I think it's a more mortal thing than that, jealousy. Sanguinius is everything in Horus eyes that he wants to be, he might be loved adored by countless followers but he will never be the Angel. He doesn't want someone on the Chaos Throne who he himself thinks could do the job better.

Daemons do like to trash talk

All Daemons are falsehood. They are lies given the shape of creatures by the power of Chaos. Fear the Daemons of Khorne for this reason and then fear them once more.
- Inquisitor Covenant

But Ka'bandha tells the truth to the Angel, so who's wrong, the Inquisition or the Daemon

It was not only a daemon, but Erebus also, and Horus did admit that he was right, but after all, "he's Horus, and it's his hot bodeh and he does what he want!"



Then he made him eat his parents...er, cut off his face.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
A force sword is an energy channel. You dont need to be able to use battle magic for that

"Force weapons are potent psychic weapons used exclusively by trained psykers."
- 6e rulebook, page 60

What would have been interesting to see is Russ team up with the guy that went toe to toe with him for a week, then knocked him out, and had those other-dimensional watcher hanging about. Namely Lion El'Jonson, going in with Russ against Horus would have been interesting. Just a (random) thought...

 Wight Lord wrote:
What would have been interesting to see is Russ team up with the guy that went toe to toe with him for a week, then knocked him out, and had those other-dimensional watcher hanging about. Namely Lion El'Jonson, going in with Russ against Horus would have been interesting. Just a (random) thought...

Horus wins.

No matter the Primarch, the outcome would have been the same. The whole point of the story is that the only person who is capable of defeating Horus is his father, the Emperor.

 Wight Lord wrote:
What would have been interesting to see is Russ team up with the guy that went toe to toe with him for a week, then knocked him out, and had those other-dimensional watcher hanging about. Namely Lion El'Jonson, going in with Russ against Horus would have been interesting. Just a (random) thought...

Yeah - if Horus sits and begins to laugh at Lion then he will also get sucker punched probably - because Lion don't like people laughing at him...

his children being the best and most fercious of all space marines in CC perhaps other than BA and grey knights.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

I laughed at that one, too. Angron, Sanguinius or Curze would have made Russ their little bitch.

 Frecklesonfire wrote:

his children being the best and most fercious of all space marines in CC perhaps other than BA and grey knights.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

and you needed 1 time edit to write simple haha - genius


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:
I laughed at that one, too. Angron, Sanguinius or Curze would have made Russ their little bitch.

In TS movie fantasy - maybe...and btw http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
A force sword is an energy channel. You dont need to be able to use battle magic for that

"Force weapons are potent psychic weapons used exclusively by trained psykers."
- 6e rulebook, page 60

Trained psykers =/= offensive psykers. Its a channeling device for his energy


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
I laughed at that one, too. Angron, Sanguinius or Curze would have made Russ their little bitch.

In TS movie fantasy - maybe...and btw http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

C'mon now. Angron is definitely more ferocious and its stated that he was the best fighter barring Horus and Maybe Sanguinius in the fluff. I would put the order as 1) Horus. 2) Sangy-Angron tie. 3) Russ. 4) Kurze

 TheAngrySquig wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
A force sword is an energy channel. You dont need to be able to use battle magic for that

"Force weapons are potent psychic weapons used exclusively by trained psykers."
- 6e rulebook, page 60

Trained psykers =/= offensive psykers. Its a channeling device for his energy


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
I laughed at that one, too. Angron, Sanguinius or Curze would have made Russ their little bitch.

In TS movie fantasy - maybe...and btw http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

C'mon now. Angron is definitely more ferocious and its stated that he was the best fighter barring Horus and Maybe Sanguinius in the fluff. I would put the order as 1) Horus. 2) Sangy-Angron tie. 3) Russ. 4) Kurze

Not in my book - people always use that one sentence from Corax as ULTIMATE fluff statment in ranking primarchs...
Now , if in the next book Dorn said that Khan or Vulkan were the best fighters - would you overrule your statment ?
Angy is to predictible for my taste (lacks cunning what Russ has) and he never fought a primarch (his equal)...for me Fulgrim was no.1 just by the facts.....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
A force sword is an energy channel. You dont need to be able to use battle magic for that

"Force weapons are potent psychic weapons used exclusively by trained psykers."
- 6e rulebook, page 60

Trained psykers =/= offensive psykers. Its a channeling device for his energy


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
I laughed at that one, too. Angron, Sanguinius or Curze would have made Russ their little bitch.

In TS movie fantasy - maybe...and btw http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

C'mon now. Angron is definitely more ferocious and its stated that he was the best fighter barring Horus and Maybe Sanguinius in the fluff. I would put the order as 1) Horus. 2) Sangy-Angron tie. 3) Russ. 4) Kurze

Not in my book - people always use that one sentence from Corax as ULTIMATE fluff statment in ranking primarchs...
Now , if in the next book Dorn said that Khan or Vulkan were the best fighters - would you overrule your statment ?
Angy is to predictible for my taste (lacks cunning what Russ has) and he never fought a primarch (his equal)...for me Fulgrim was no.1 just by the facts.....

Fulgrim was so good due to a blade that enhanced his abilities, if you still peg that as his abilities than maybe you are right. And while you can rebuttal the fluff by saying "if the fluff contradicted itself, what would you believe than?!" but ultimately....in this regard it hasn't. The information we are given from the fluff has been stated. If you want to just pretend it didn't exist or say that it doesn't count, "well that is just your opinion man". But either way, until something else comes along it's the best indicator we have.

Codex SW 2nd Ed wrote:Leman Russ was the most ferocious of the primarchs, a giant even among the Emperor's chosen, a great brawling warrior, fiercely loyal to his friends and a terror to his enemies.

It's not ignoring Corax's statement. It's recognizing that it is just the opinion of one person in universe. And one person who has a Captain from his own Legion make a bet saying that Russ will be the one to kill Horus. We also have Lorgar using Russ and Khan to threaten Angron in Butcher's Nails. Knowing full well that the SWs are weakened after Prospero.

So one person saying that only Horus and Sanguinius are the only one that can beat Angron. doesn't mean much when viewed through a wider lens.

Russ fought the Lion for a week and got knocked the feth out. Curze painted the floor with the Lion's brains after the Lion sucker-stabbed him.

Who is indulging in fantasy now?

And the Lion puts Curze in a coma their next meeting ~ Prince of Crows. Curze, is still a Primarch and don't mistake a combination of desperation and luck as a measure of the man. He was loosing that fight.