Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Its 2012.. everyone is always offended, all of the time, about everything. That's why Matty is always banned.

Listen.. being offended, its not a big deal. It doesn't physically hurt, it doesn't kill kittens. Lots of gak offends me from major to minor. The KKK, The Black Panthers, Islam as a whole. Baseball caps, chewing gum, The Ting Tings, but so what?

Being offended doesn't entitle you to anything, and rightly so.. at least it shouldn't do, but alas the lines have blurred in these namby pampy days.

So get over it, and vote with your wallet and let that be the end of it, what do you want to do? Ban everything that offends anyone ever? gak.. I'm sure someone somewhere is offended by Barney or My Little Pony, or potato chips, or salsa.. shall we all kick up a fuss about those things?

Nothing to see here. All kinds of things in life piss all kinds of people off all of the time, such is the way of things, but you keep on trucking.

And really.. there is far, far, far more important gak than this to be worrying yourself over.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Weeble: Now we can't be having you calling them "American Indians" as that's racist too! If you want to be completely PC then you're going to have to call them "Native Americans"

Native American, American Indian, and Indian are all acceptable PC terms.

 mattyrm wrote:
Its 2012.. everyone is always offended, all of the time, about everything. That's why Matty is always banned.

Listen.. being offended, its not a big deal. It doesn't physically hurt, it doesn't kill kittens. Lots of gak offends me from major to minor. The KKK, The Black Panthers, Islam as a whole. Baseball caps, chewing gum, The Ting Tings, but so what?

Being offended doesn't entitle you to anything, and rightly so.. at least it shouldn't do, but alas the lines have blurred in these namby pampy days.

So get over it, and vote with your wallet and let that be the end of it, what do you want to do? Ban everything that offends anyone ever? gak.. I'm sure someone somewhere is offended by Barney or My Little Pony, or potato chips, or salsa.. shall we all kick up a fuss about those things?

Nothing to see here. All kinds of things in life piss all kinds of people off all of the time, such is the way of things, but you keep on trucking.

And really.. there is far, far, far more important gak than this to be worrying yourself over.

Matty you rock.I completely agree with what you are saying.

Are you serious? Why do so many people go actively searching for racism in everything nowadays? It's just like all those people who believe Lord of the Rings is racist... its stupid.

I'd insert a "Won't someone think of the children" picture, but then I went and looked into Fanticide's Liberi Faction.



A centaur with Native American headdress is insulting? That's racist?

How is that racist and this isn't? Clearly this is saying that Southern White Americans are as backwards as Orks, right?

weeble1000 wrote:

First the name:

Liberi - Which is intended to mean 'Free.' The Liberi live free lives on the open plains, perhaps freed from the strictures of 'modern' (read: Advanced) culture which they can never be part of. The implication is that to be in "civilized" society (the society using technology more advanced than a steel sword) the Liberi would not be Free. See how that works?

Okay, so we can say that just the name "Liberi" itself evokes a great deal of baggage.

But we really can't, because, at least as far as I can see, there is no particularly 'modern' culture within the game's fiction for them to be ostracized from or enslaved by...at least not to any greater extent than the common survival of the fittest and subjection of the weak theme found in virtually every fantasy setting. I could possibly see your point if the Liberi were presented as a slave race or even as having some fundamental flaw that makes them less desirable or weak, but they don't appear to be on anything but equal footing with the rest of the factions in the game. Even if they are patterned after Native Americans, they don't appear to be marginalized within the gameworld, so I don't see anything to cry foul about.

weeble1000 wrote:
Okay, let's try a similar example involving black people.

What if the faction was "Furtumi," (from the Latin for theft), and was composed of chimpanzees in blackface who lived in the ghetto, loved to eat watermelon, and were addicted to drugs?

Would that also not be racist?

Why would this be racist? Are these things that you associate with Black people. Cause i pretty sure we all like drugs and watermelon, amiright?

I don't believe for a second that Weebie1000 is serious with this thread or believe that those are racists centaurs.

Don't use DAKKA for your social experiments or mental exercises, man.

weeble1000 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Weeble: Now we can't be having you calling them "American Indians" as that's racist too! If you want to be completely PC then you're going to have to call them "Native Americans"

Native American, American Indian, and Indian are all acceptable PC terms.

True.

Most people think that "Indian" is wrong because that's what Columbus called them when he thought he discovered a new route to India.

Problem is, India was known as Hindustan in those days. There was no India. There was the Sea of Ind but no India.

Columbus actually called the natives "Indios" or People in God. A pretty great compliment coming from a Catholic explorer.

 shingouki wrote:


Matty you rock.I completely agree with what you are saying.

Hey ive just thought of something else that really offends me!

People taking the time to write letters and post posts and make blogs about being offended by not actually that offensive things.

This thread for example!

I mean, there are literally thousands of "good" causes.. my definition being simply "lessening the suffering of the aware" because I think its good for the world. Even supporting animals such as dogs and cats is noble, or what about all the oppressed women in the world, or victims of rape, or gay rights... in Saudi Arabia they still stone people to death. There are massacres in several African nations still going on. Uganda is fethed, as is Somalia.

But no, in our nice fat western nations we spend our time writing letters to politicians and the BBC... because a bloke said "tits" on the breakfast news.. or because they made a family friendly comedy about a British Muslim, or because Waitrose stops selling Salad Cream, or because they want to change the fething name of Coco Pops!

Or because possibly someone somewhere might be miffed about factions in hobby games.

THAT is fething offensive.. how we have become obsessed with "middle class arsehole" problems. Instead of.. you know.. not fething up the globe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
I don't believe for a second that Weebie1000 is serious with this thread or believe that those are racists centaurs.

Don't use DAKKA for your social experiments or mental exercises, man.

Also a good hypothesis.

He is probably laughing his arse off right about now.

weeble1000 wrote:
It is being applied to real people today. Right now. The fact that you made such a statement is part of the ongoing issue. We, as in Americans, are engaging in on ongoing process of colonizing American Indian peoples. Do you know that, for example, the rate of sexual assault among American Indian women is more than twice the national average? That is absolutely the result of neglect; a neglect to a minority population that is directly influenced by the very 'noble savage' archetype that you say has nothing to do with racism.

The point... you missed it. I am in no way saying that racism against Native Americans is not alive and well. I am saying that the Liberi have nothing to do with racism against Native Americans.

I agree that the archetype is not necessarily that harmful in and of itself. But when it is unabashedly applied to an image of a Native American person, as in the case of the Liberi, then it becomes something much more destructive.

News flash. The Liberi, much like the Navi, are not Native Americans.

The noble savage archetype identifies those it is applied to as an "other" distinctly not part of the broader society. It is intimately associated with vanishing Indian ideology when applied to an American Indian person, real or fictional. The noble savage archetype excludes American Indian peoples from participation in American society and romantically justifies that exclusion as being natural. Moreover, the archetype is often invoked, even today, as a means of cultural appropriation. The noble savage teaches the "civilized" person about the natural world that he has rejected. The noble savage has a position of authority in this relationship, but this again serves only to disguise the true nature of the interaction. The civilized person can appropriate what it needs from the other and return to civilization but the other is forever excluded, unless it rejects its culture and becomes civilized. The noble savage is ever in a subordinated position and the only road out of that subordination is the destruction of its culture and identity; i.e. colonization.

All of this is a well and good, but it has little to nothing to do with the Liberi and everything to do with the cultural identity of Native Americans in the modern world.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
How is that racist and this isn't? Clearly this is saying that Southern White Americans are as backwards as Orks, right?

Southern white american is not a race, it is a cultural identity. Orks were based on soccer hooligans to begin with anyways and that isn't racism, but again a mockery of a particular cultural group.

The Ting Tings....... Lol, just Lol.

 kronk wrote:
I don't believe for a second that Weebie1000 is serious with this thread or believe that those are racists centaurs.

Don't use DAKKA for your social experiments or mental exercises, man.

I'm thinking Kronk is onto something here. This is like the 3rd racism thread I've seen on Dakka today.


The centaurs are all different colors. How can that be racist?

This has got to be a new record for bending over backwards ...

I had a well formulated argument to add, but in the end what it all boils down to for everyone is simple:

"Where are all the white women at?!?"

True story...

 Manchu wrote:
This has got to be a new record for bending over backwards ...

Eh?

 pretre wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
This has got to be a new record for bending over backwards ...

Eh?

And sticking your head up your own backside I would assume.

 pretre wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
This has got to be a new record for bending over backwards ...

Eh?

I presume he means bending over backwards as in.. like really trying your damnedest to be offended by something.

I might be wrong though, he strikes me as the kinky sort does Manchu.

Better question?

When is GW going to file a C&D on that centaur's butt? Clearly it is a violation of their Tactical Marines marking.

weeble1000 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
That's not technically racism, CURNOW. As for the OP, I think you're stretching a bit here. The use of the 'noble savage' archetype far predates Fanticide and has little to do with racism at this point except when it is applied to real people.

It is being applied to real people today. Right now. The fact that you made such a statement is part of the ongoing issue. We, as in Americans, are engaging in on ongoing process of colonizing American Indian peoples. Do you know that, for example, the rate of sexual assault among American Indian women is more than twice the national average? That is absolutely the result of neglect; a neglect to a minority population that is directly influenced by the very 'noble savage' archetype that you say has nothing to do with racism.

HOLD THE PHONE HERE! All crime rates are doubled amongst the Native Americans on reservations, not just rape. Before you start spouting more partial facts, you need to look at a few more things. Federal agents have limited powers on reserves, Native Americans are empowered to create their own tribal police force and 1999 $89 million was given to attempt to increase officer ranks among tribal police and 2009 another $248 million for criminal justice infrastructure on Native American lands. This isn't some stereotype going on here causing crime, but legal jurisdiction, low crime control and other socio-economic factors.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Better question?

When is GW going to file a C&D on that centaur's butt? Clearly it is a violation of their Tactical Marines marking.

I was gonna say the same thing about Ork glyphs!

 kronk wrote:

Oh come on, have you watched TV lately? He is just making fun of that train wreak "Here comes Honey Boo Boo"



=

 Surtur wrote:
This isn't some stereotype going on here causing crime, but legal jurisdiction, low crime control and other socio-economic factors.

In general, the problems for Native Americans at this point have a lot to do with socio-economics and social inertia than anything else. That's a bit beyond the scope of a dakka thread though.

Can we get this thread just put down?

I can see why certain stereotypes can cause offence and yet not being of native american/first nations descent, I cannot see what harm can be found here.

I am sensitive to the other example and would find that a bit over the top. In the end though, I'd vote with my wallet and choose not to participate in a game with such factions.

I don't think it deserves more attention than that though.

I have to ask, however, what does the OP think of the old native american/dark angels idea? Pseudo native american imagery worn by transhuman Legion Astartes? Is this any different than watching certain American Football teams such as the Washington Redskins? Ok, I jest, but I needed a laugh.

weeble1000 wrote:

It is being applied to real people today. Right now. The fact that you made such a statement is part of the ongoing issue. We, as in Americans, are engaging in on ongoing process of colonizing American Indian peoples. Do you know that, for example, the rate of sexual assault among American Indian women is more than twice the national average? That is absolutely the result of neglect; a neglect to a minority population that is directly influenced by the very 'noble savage' archetype that you say has nothing to do with racism.

You dont even read your own articles. False on the noble savage archtype. They dont even HAVE or UNDERSTAND all the reasons. Thats your bias speaking.


Reasons for the high rate of sexual assaults among American Indians are poorly understood, but explanations include a breakdown in the family structure, a lack of discussion about sexual violence and alcohol abuse.

baptistcreature wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

First the name:

Liberi - Which is intended to mean 'Free.' The Liberi live free lives on the open plains, perhaps freed from the strictures of 'modern' (read: Advanced) culture which they can never be part of. The implication is that to be in "civilized" society (the society using technology more advanced than a steel sword) the Liberi would not be Free. See how that works?

Okay, so we can say that just the name "Liberi" itself evokes a great deal of baggage.

But we really can't, because, at least as far as I can see, there is no particularly 'modern' culture within the game's fiction for them to be ostracized from or enslaved by...at least not to any greater extent than the common survival of the fittest and subjection of the weak theme found in virtually every fantasy setting. I could possibly see your point if the Liberi were presented as a slave race or even as having some fundamental flaw that makes them less desirable or weak, but they don't appear to be on anything but equal footing with the rest of the factions in the game. Even if they are patterned after Native Americans, they don't appear to be marginalized within the gameworld, so I don't see anything to cry foul about.

They are specifically described as not possessing the technology to work metal. But more than that they reject anything more advanced than a steel sword.

Not to mention the fact that people from off Rez can come on Rez, commit crimes and often get away with them.

 mattyrm wrote:

 shingouki wrote:


Matty you rock.I completely agree with what you are saying.

Hey ive just thought of something else that really offends me!

People taking the time to write letters and post posts and make blogs about being offended by not actually that offensive things.

This thread for example!

I mean, there are literally thousands of "good" causes.. my definition being simply "lessening the suffering of the aware" because I think its good for the world. Even supporting animals such as dogs and cats is noble, or what about all the oppressed women in the world, or victims of rape, or gay rights... in Saudi Arabia they still stone people to death. There are massacres in several African nations still going on. Uganda is fethed, as is Somalia.

But no, in our nice fat western nations we spend our time writing letters to politicians and the BBC... because a bloke said "tits" on the breakfast news.. or because they made a family friendly comedy about a British Muslim, or because Waitrose stops selling Salad Cream, or because they want to change the fething name of Coco Pops!

Or because possibly someone somewhere might be miffed about factions in hobby games.

THAT is fething offensive.. how we have become obsessed with "middle class arsehole" problems. Instead of.. you know.. not fething up the globe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
I don't believe for a second that Weebie1000 is serious with this thread or believe that those are racists centaurs.

Don't use DAKKA for your social experiments or mental exercises, man.

Also a good hypothesis.

He is probably laughing his arse off right about now.

hoofin !

 pretre wrote:
Not to mention the fact that people from off Rez can come on Rez, commit crimes and often get away with them.

Did someone say "Rez"?



Sorry.

All i see is centaurs with cutie marks......Sorry had too.
But in all reality, This is no different from lets say Khador, Or Menoth, Or VC, Or Empire, Or Orks, or welll Fething EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They use historical elements of well known cultures and aesthetics. They tweak and modify these to make them their own. Many do this to make them accessible to players who do not see something totally new and be immediately put off by the look.

Uhlan wrote:
I can see why certain stereotypes can cause offence and yet not being of native american/first nations descent, I cannot see what harm can be found here.

I am sensitive to the other example and would find that a bit over the top. In the end though, I'd vote with my wallet and choose not to participate in a game with such factions.

I don't think it deserves more attention than that though.

I have to ask, however, what does the OP think of the old native american/dark angels idea? Pseudo native american imagery worn by transhuman Legion Astartes? Is this any different than watching certain American Football teams such as the Washington Redskins? Ok, I jest, but I needed a laugh.

I don't have a problem with that. The offensiveness of the Liberi comes from taking an instantly recognizable image of a Native American person (stereotypical though it may be) and applying to it dehumanizing and colonizing attributes. It evokes not merely an impression of Indianess or of stereotypical Indian material culture, but an Indian person. If you removed the horse body and put on human legs, those models could be found in a game of Pike and Shotte.

It is a fully formed Indian stereotype stuck onto the body of a horse, hence why I used blackface in my hypothetical example.

If you find the example "over the top" and offensive, then explain why. It is much harder to explain why something is offensive than to simply deny that it is offensive. This is because of ignorance.

Imagine that I said I don't think thieving chimpanzees in blackface and eating watermelons while living in a drug-filled ghetto is offensive. Explain to me then, if you find that offensive, why I should be offended.