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The thing is, I do like a lot of the Hordes range. I was dead set on starting an Everblight army before I decided I didn't want another full army to paint and went with Infinity instead. It's mostly the Warmachine side of the range, which I simply just don't like the look of.

 -Loki- wrote:
The thing is, I do like a lot of the Hordes range. I was dead set on starting an Everblight army before I decided I didn't want another full army to paint and went with Infinity instead. It's mostly the Warmachine side of the range, which I simply just don't like the look of.

You know you want to...

I don't want to get into the whole argument again, but the main contributing factor of my getting into Infinity aside from the amount of models to paint is that my friends won't get into Warmahordes with me, and my local scene is, well, the less said about the players, the better.

 -Loki- wrote:
I don't want to get into the whole argument again, but the main contributing factor of my getting into Infinity aside from the amount of models to paint is that my friends won't get into Warmahordes with me, and my local scene is, well, the less said about the players, the better.

Here's the deal everything boils down to a preference. GW fans will stand by GW and PP fans with side with PP its a moot point the deal is play what you like and have respect for a fellow gamer regardless of what they play, unless they happen to be a douche then treat them according to their attitude rather then by the game they play.

Mattman154 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
I don't want to get into the whole argument again, but the main contributing factor of my getting into Infinity aside from the amount of models to paint is that my friends won't get into Warmahordes with me, and my local scene is, well, the less said about the players, the better.

Like I said, I don't want to get into it again, because last time it caused a few page flame fest. However, notice when I say my local scene. The people I would be playing against. It's not a dig at Warmahordes players in general.

 -Loki- wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
I don't want to get into the whole argument again, but the main contributing factor of my getting into Infinity aside from the amount of models to paint is that my friends won't get into Warmahordes with me, and my local scene is, well, the less said about the players, the better.

Like I said, I don't want to get into it again, because last time it caused a few page flame fest. However, notice when I say my local scene. The people I would be playing against. It's not a dig at Warmahordes players in general.

Roll up a newspaper and every time they get uppity, you SMACK THEM ON THE NOSE! And say firmly, "No."

Or just, you know, play a game I enjoy with people I like.

 -Loki- wrote:
Or just, you know, play a game I enjoy with people I like.

But then what would we go on the internet to complain about?!

Maybe if I keep kicking this dead horse, I'll change your mind about PP... or GW... ?

Nope! I guess I'll keep kicking.

boyd wrote:
Maybe if I keep kicking this dead horse, I'll change your mind about PP... or GW... ?

Nope! I guess I'll keep kicking.

Who are you? Have you posted in here before?

Just wanna make sure we are all on the same page:

If I need to paint a fence.

Brand A paint costs $20 per can and I'll need 1 can to paint the fence.

Brand B costs $20 per can and I'll need 3 cans to paint the fence.

It's a "worthless" and "untrue" comparison to call Brand A cheaper in this case since they cost the same per can? Ok, good to know!

I play both and wish they were both cheeper...

Brother Gyoken wrote:
Just wanna make sure we are all on the same page:

If I need to paint a fence.

Brand A paint costs $20 per can and I'll need 1 can to paint the fence.

Brand B costs $20 per can and I'll need 3 cans to paint the fence.

It's a "worthless" and "untrue" comparison to call Brand A cheaper in this case since they cost the same per can? Ok, good to know!

bullcrap analogy

Paint coverage is based upon quality. The issue is not quality, it is you have two different sized fences. You are still buying 1 can of paint for 20$ from both companies which have the same level of coverage. You just have the perception that you plan to paint a small fence which takes one can with one paint and a larger fence which you feel takes 3 cans to paint a different fence. Having a smaller fence to paint doesn't make the paint cheaper per can unless the can covers more... Which in the case of PP and GW, it doesn't.

The issue is perception of fence size is subjective and not at all always valid. Lots of people have small GW fences, lots of people have massive PP fences, so the price per can is still the same as everyone has variable and personal fence sizes... The quality is the same.

The only way your example works is if you got more models for your 20$ so you could do more with it. That is not valid in a PP vs GW discussion, only if we were discussing mantic... Though even their prices have increased as of late.

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:
I play both and wish they were both cheeper...

More of these?


Duly noted.

Cheaper, Mrs Malaprop; cheaper.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:
I play both and wish they were both cheeper...

More of these?


Duly noted.

Cheaper, Mrs Malaprop; cheaper.

nkelsch wrote:

bullcrap analogy

Paint coverage is based upon quality. The issue is not quality, it is you have two different sized fences. You are still buying 1 can of paint for 20$ from both companies which have the same level of coverage. You just have the perception that you plan to paint a small fence which takes one can with one paint and a larger fence which you feel takes 3 cans to paint a different fence. Having a smaller fence to paint doesn't make the paint cheaper per can unless the can covers more... Which in the case of PP and GW, it doesn't.

The issue is perception of fence size is subjective and not at all always valid. Lots of people have small GW fences, lots of people have massive PP fences, so the price per can is still the same as everyone has variable and personal fence sizes... The quality is the same.

The only way your example works is if you got more models for your 20$ so you could do more with it. That is not valid in a PP vs GW discussion, only if we were discussing mantic... Though even their prices have increased as of late.

Brother Gyoken wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Brother Gyoken wrote:
Just wanna make sure we are all on the same page:

If I need to paint a fence.

Brand A paint costs $20 per can and I'll need 1 can to paint the fence.

Brand B costs $20 per can and I'll need 3 cans to paint the fence.

It's a "worthless" and "untrue" comparison to call Brand A cheaper in this case since they cost the same per can? Ok, good to know!

bullcrap analogy

Paint coverage is based upon quality. The issue is not quality, it is you have two different sized fences. You are still buying 1 can of paint for 20$ from both companies which have the same level of coverage. You just have the perception that you plan to paint a small fence which takes one can with one paint and a larger fence which you feel takes 3 cans to paint a different fence. Having a smaller fence to paint doesn't make the paint cheaper per can unless the can covers more... Which in the case of PP and GW, it doesn't.

The issue is perception of fence size is subjective and not at all always valid. Lots of people have small GW fences, lots of people have massive PP fences, so the price per can is still the same as everyone has variable and personal fence sizes... The quality is the same.

The only way your example works is if you got more models for your 20$ so you could do more with it. That is not valid in a PP vs GW discussion, only if we were discussing mantic... Though even their prices have increased as of late.

It's not a "bullcrap" analogy. If the task is "playing a minitures game" then PP is demonstrably cheaper. If the task is "painting a fence" then I'm going to buy the amount I need for coverage.

Just because GW and PP models are roughly the same cost per model does not make the task of "having a playable army" change between the systems. Yes, I can go ahead and spend $600 or $700 with PP to match the number of models in a GW army, but even in that case I now have multiple armies for Warmahordes.

Warmahordes is cheaper in literally every measurable way EXCEPT on a per model basis. That is why the GW fans are discounting any other measure, no matter how much sense it makes.

doesnt make sense... You can play either game with a large or small fence. Your analogy is based upon quality and quantity per can of paint which is not different between the two companies and products. Choosing to install a 3foot picket fence instead of a 6foot security fence doesn't make the paint "cheaper", you just need less of the paint which costs the same per can and has the same quality. The truth as much as fanatics want to deny it is you can have small GW fences and large PP fences... And both start out small and grow to crazy sizes with the way people collect. Personal fence size doesn't make the paint cheaper unless the paint covers more which equates to more models per boxed set... Which neither PP or GW excel at.

That is why you PP fans are discounting any other measure, no matter how much your analogies don't make sense.

nkelsch wrote:

Brother Gyoken wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Brother Gyoken wrote:
Just wanna make sure we are all on the same page:

If I need to paint a fence.

Brand A paint costs $20 per can and I'll need 1 can to paint the fence.

Brand B costs $20 per can and I'll need 3 cans to paint the fence.

It's a "worthless" and "untrue" comparison to call Brand A cheaper in this case since they cost the same per can? Ok, good to know!

bullcrap analogy

Paint coverage is based upon quality. The issue is not quality, it is you have two different sized fences. You are still buying 1 can of paint for 20$ from both companies which have the same level of coverage. You just have the perception that you plan to paint a small fence which takes one can with one paint and a larger fence which you feel takes 3 cans to paint a different fence. Having a smaller fence to paint doesn't make the paint cheaper per can unless the can covers more... Which in the case of PP and GW, it doesn't.

The issue is perception of fence size is subjective and not at all always valid. Lots of people have small GW fences, lots of people have massive PP fences, so the price per can is still the same as everyone has variable and personal fence sizes... The quality is the same.

The only way your example works is if you got more models for your 20$ so you could do more with it. That is not valid in a PP vs GW discussion, only if we were discussing mantic... Though even their prices have increased as of late.

It's not a "bullcrap" analogy. If the task is "playing a minitures game" then PP is demonstrably cheaper. If the task is "painting a fence" then I'm going to buy the amount I need for coverage.

Just because GW and PP models are roughly the same cost per model does not make the task of "having a playable army" change between the systems. Yes, I can go ahead and spend $600 or $700 with PP to match the number of models in a GW army, but even in that case I now have multiple armies for Warmahordes.

Warmahordes is cheaper in literally every measurable way EXCEPT on a per model basis. That is why the GW fans are discounting any other measure, no matter how much sense it makes.

doesnt make sense... You can play either game with a large or small fence. Your analogy is based upon quality and quantity per can of paint which is not different between the two companies and products. Choosing to install a 3foot picket fence instead of a 6foot security fence doesn't make the paint "cheaper", you just need less of the paint which costs the same per can and has the same quality. The truth as much as fanatics want to deny it is you can have small GW fences and large PP fences... And both start out small and grow to crazy sizes with the way people collect. Personal fence size doesn't make the paint cheaper unless the paint covers more which equates to more models per boxed set... Which neither PP or GW excel at.

That is why you PP fans are discounting any other measure, no matter how much your analogies don't make sense.

Damnit Tom, stop trying to get me to paint your friggen fence.

nkelsch wrote:

doesnt make sense... You can play either game with a large or small fence. Your analogy is based upon quality and quantity per can of paint which is not different between the two companies and products. Choosing to install a 3foot picket fence instead of a 6foot security fence doesn't make the paint "cheaper", you just need less of the paint which costs the same per can and has the same quality. The truth as much as fanatics want to deny it is you can have small GW fences and large PP fences... And both start out small and grow to crazy sizes with the way people collect. Personal fence size doesn't make the paint cheaper unless the paint covers more which equates to more models per boxed set... Which neither PP or GW excel at.

That is why you PP fans are discounting any other measure, no matter how much your analogies don't make sense.

Could someone deal with this for me? I don't have the money to paint it.

 ShumaGorath wrote:


Could someone deal with this for me? I don't have the money to paint it.

What? This type of "can't do" attitude is abhorrent. Everyone carries a personal quantity of refilling red paint within! Show some initiative! (also veins)

Brother Gyoken wrote:

 ShumaGorath wrote:


Could someone deal with this for me? I don't have the money to paint it.

What? This type of "can't do" attitude is abhorrent. Everyone carries a personal quantity of refilling red paint within! Show some initiative! (also veins)

I don't need my fence to go faster, it's a fence.

The amount of replayability you get with PP factions is what completely destroys the PP vs GW cost analysis in PP's favor in my opinion.

There's virtually no duplication of units in a 'normal' WM/H list outside of a few notable exceptions (Cryx Banespam as an obvious example), but once you buy a faction, which is about a $1200 investment, you can field almost any armylist.

When you drop $700 to buy a 40k army, you can field that army and only that army. To change that army requires buying a large number of different models to build a "new" army. Some 40k armies are a little more modular, like anything based on Space Marine tactical squads, but for others like IG, to go from infantryspam to mechguard to flyingguard to Leman Russ spam will be repeated $300-$500 investments.

When I played 40k h4rdc0r3 2-3 years ago I was easily investing $100-$200/month in new models to try different army builds. Playing WM/H, I bought basically the entire Trollbloods faction for about $1200, and spend maybe an additional $100 or so on new releases every year.

The variable costs between the game systems are much more favorable to PP than GW.

 Peregrine wrote:
It's a good comparison because 40k doesn't have a skirmish-scale game.

Yes it does. Kill Teams. They had a tournament for it either a week ago or a week from now (Cant quite recall when)

Even though its bad and horribly unbalanced *Ahem*

Brother Gyoken wrote:


This is disingenuous. No one with "small GW fences" is getting any type of regular games, as pointed out earlier in the thread. Additionally, MANY people would argue that the quality of the GW fence is vastly inferior as it gets smaller.

Again, if the task if "playing a miniatures game" a small GW "fence" isn't gonna cut it.

Actually for me the area I recently relocated to I can not get a game above 1000 points and the general point level being played is 500-750. Kinda sucks for me as I have very large armies.

Edit: I have done a 3 on 1 battle where I got to play 1500 points

 blood lance wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
It's a good comparison because 40k doesn't have a skirmish-scale game.

Yes it does. Kill Teams. They had a tournament for it either a week ago or a week from now (Cant quite recall when)

Even though its bad and horribly unbalanced *Ahem*

Kill Team is definitely a format that exists, but it's also terrible as you say, and at that point we CAN make it a quality argument.

Edit: I want to make it clear I actually own way more 40K and also play way more 40K than Warmahordes. I just think going by a per-model cost basis is illogical and disingenuous.

Brother Gyoken wrote:
. I just think going by a per-model cost basis is illogical and disingenuous.

I completely agree with you with the caveat "unless all you do is buy models to paint/display".

This thread is a bit silly. Both companies have games that people love to play.

Both games are not cheap. Both make good quality minis (minus Fine Cast).

Play what you like to play. Paint what you like to paint.

Basically don't Yuk someone else's Yum.

 sourclams wrote:

Brother Gyoken wrote:
. I just think going by a per-model cost basis is illogical and disingenuous.

I completely agree with you with the caveat "unless all you do is buy models to paint/display".

You don't have to only be a collector... This idea of cost of entry in a discussion of veterans who have 10k$ collections is all academic posturing. Game size is different for every person as no one plays either game a single way and it is anecdotal.

PERSONAL value based upon the games your friends play and the size of games your friends play in your area takes into account a lot of variables which are different for people.

The only thing which is not variable is the comparison of cost per model at a per-model basis. Having a meta-game which doesn't require duplicates or requires smaller initial investment, may make the 'value' for you be better, but it doesn't universally change the value for consumers. The unwillingness for people to accept what is a personal value with an actual value change and then the angry posturing and lynchmob mentality when people don't play your game the right way is disturbing.


My reality is this: Warhammer is played on 4x4, small games in my area because the closest store is a single-man GW shop. That store manager is VERY SKILLED in promoting sales by encouraging slow army building and running events which help people get games in with small numbers of models. Every time I have participated, people have had amazingly good times and many of them either only own a few hundred points or are starting a new army within the confines of the events they run and only have a few hundred points. To invalidate their existence and devalue their money because someone somewhere plays 2000pt 40k exclusively in their area does NOTHING.

I also play Hordes as I started to collect PP model per model and then had enough to play a minion army. The Hordes people are massive point games against the same unpainted messes. I only have about 35 pts total and not an optimized force at that. All the games I have played have been with friends as I don't have enough to play with 'the big boys'. They consider 50 points small.

So for anyone to tell me my 40$ turtleman model I bought is cheaper than a 40$ Ghazghkull because someone somewhere can play a 15pt game with my turtleman and feel fulfilled to his soul and he would be disappointed in playing with my ghazghkull in a 500pt game is absurdity to me and I see no reason how it changes my money's value or my experience. The only reasonable thing which can be compared is models per cost... personal value is all based upon things which are not standard, like how someone intends to use them, if they like the model and so on.

I also like to use my models for other RPG games... so when I find a model which can be used in multi-universes it is good. By that logic, since I find fantasy-based monsters able to be used in more games personally over very unique sci-fi models... Fantasy-basedmodels have more value to me and therefor to all of you on the internet as well. I can take my GW stonetroll and PP Spitter turtle and drop them into dozens of RPG games as random dungeon trash and because of that, they are 'cheaper' than their Sci-Fi counterparts.

People are too invested in tearing down other people's gaming system and telling people how to correctly play with their toys if you keep tying in your personal playstyle into the value of other people's dollar bills.