Commander Dante RUINED!!! Due to 6th Edition utterly ruining him and most BA HQ's...

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Mahtamori**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Skriker wrote:
kb305 wrote:
power weapons should have never been nerfed in the first place.

at 15 points it was questionable if they were worth it in 5th. now that theyre only AP3. they are def not worth it. they are very gimp.

basically only grey knights needed their power weapons nerfed.

Uh...so being able to ignore armor on most everything on the table except a few units like termies is gimpy? Ummm...no...

Power weapons now have differences. They still work fine and now have more flavor based on their type. Get over it. It isn't the end of the world.

Skriker
To be fair, nerfing something and then calling it "flavor" doesn't tend to go over well with most people, and for good reason.

There wasn't really a game balance reason to change powerweapons, and changing them through the core rules without changes to the army books where many units were built around the original 14 year old mechanic tends to cause issues, issues that GW lets roll on for years.

Sorry, but Power Weapons have been godly ever since 3rd edition. Notice how Terminators completely vanished from games within months of 3rd ed's release?! Who would be stupid enough to plonk down 200+ pts for 5 dudes who fall over to every single little IG Sergeant?!!
GW had to give Termies the 5++ save just so people would use them.
Then as 3rd turned into 4th, Power Weapons got moronically cheap for every Upgrade Character. Anything with a decent save was forced to avoid combat because your armour didn't matter. Marines went from being a 'jack-of-all-trades' to being nothing but a bunch of infiltrating Devastator squads! SW's/BT's/CSM's went to min/max monstrosities. GK's simply vanished altogether, and those Termies still sucked.

So now, we finally have ap values which not only bring some choice and advantages to different weapons, but 2+ saves are finally relevent again!
Alot of the people I've found who b about the supposed "NERF!1!!1!" to Power Weapons are just upset that they can no longer just throw a Sergeant and his ablative chumpies into Termies and make them vanish.
On the other hand, for the first time since the 5th ed Marine codex removed the double special weapons option, I'm finally seeing non-TH/SS termies on the field actually laying some hurt!

Some, including me, would argue that 2+ is now too relevant. For their cost.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Mahtamori wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Skriker wrote:
kb305 wrote:
power weapons should have never been nerfed in the first place.

at 15 points it was questionable if they were worth it in 5th. now that theyre only AP3. they are def not worth it. they are very gimp.

basically only grey knights needed their power weapons nerfed.

Uh...so being able to ignore armor on most everything on the table except a few units like termies is gimpy? Ummm...no...

Power weapons now have differences. They still work fine and now have more flavor based on their type. Get over it. It isn't the end of the world.

Skriker
To be fair, nerfing something and then calling it "flavor" doesn't tend to go over well with most people, and for good reason.

There wasn't really a game balance reason to change powerweapons, and changing them through the core rules without changes to the army books where many units were built around the original 14 year old mechanic tends to cause issues, issues that GW lets roll on for years.

Sorry, but Power Weapons have been godly ever since 3rd edition. Notice how Terminators completely vanished from games within months of 3rd ed's release?! Who would be stupid enough to plonk down 200+ pts for 5 dudes who fall over to every single little IG Sergeant?!!
GW had to give Termies the 5++ save just so people would use them.
Then as 3rd turned into 4th, Power Weapons got moronically cheap for every Upgrade Character. Anything with a decent save was forced to avoid combat because your armour didn't matter. Marines went from being a 'jack-of-all-trades' to being nothing but a bunch of infiltrating Devastator squads! SW's/BT's/CSM's went to min/max monstrosities. GK's simply vanished altogether, and those Termies still sucked.

So now, we finally have ap values which not only bring some choice and advantages to different weapons, but 2+ saves are finally relevent again!
Alot of the people I've found who b about the supposed "NERF!1!!1!" to Power Weapons are just upset that they can no longer just throw a Sergeant and his ablative chumpies into Termies and make them vanish.
On the other hand, for the first time since the 5th ed Marine codex removed the double special weapons option, I'm finally seeing non-TH/SS termies on the field actually laying some hurt!

Some, including me, would argue that 2+ is now too relevant. For their cost.

I'd counterargue that no one would take normal Terminators if their cost was higher. It'd just not be worth it when the opponent can just torrent them off the board.

**Grey Templar**

I would say Terminators are perfect at their current cost.

In 5th and 4th they were almost pointless as power weapons were too powerful against them.

**kb305**

its only a slight buff to terminators without a SS.

TH/SS is still miles ahead of the rest.

**Vaktathi**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Skriker wrote:
kb305 wrote:
power weapons should have never been nerfed in the first place.

at 15 points it was questionable if they were worth it in 5th. now that theyre only AP3. they are def not worth it. they are very gimp.

basically only grey knights needed their power weapons nerfed.

Uh...so being able to ignore armor on most everything on the table except a few units like termies is gimpy? Ummm...no...

Power weapons now have differences. They still work fine and now have more flavor based on their type. Get over it. It isn't the end of the world.

Skriker
To be fair, nerfing something and then calling it "flavor" doesn't tend to go over well with most people, and for good reason.

There wasn't really a game balance reason to change powerweapons, and changing them through the core rules without changes to the army books where many units were built around the original 14 year old mechanic tends to cause issues, issues that GW lets roll on for years.

Sorry, but Power Weapons have been godly ever since 3rd edition. Notice how Terminators completely vanished from games within months of 3rd ed's release?! Who would be stupid enough to plonk down 200+ pts for 5 dudes who fall over to every single little IG Sergeant?!!
GW had to give Termies the 5++ save just so people would use them.
Then as 3rd turned into 4th, Power Weapons got moronically cheap for every Upgrade Character. Anything with a decent save was forced to avoid combat because your armour didn't matter. Marines went from being a 'jack-of-all-trades' to being nothing but a bunch of infiltrating Devastator squads! SW's/BT's/CSM's went to min/max monstrosities. GK's simply vanished altogether, and those Termies still sucked.

So now, we finally have ap values which not only bring some choice and advantages to different weapons, but 2+ saves are finally relevent again!
Alot of the people I've found who b about the supposed "NERF!1!!1!" to Power Weapons are just upset that they can no longer just throw a Sergeant and his ablative chumpies into Termies and make them vanish.
On the other hand, for the first time since the 5th ed Marine codex removed the double special weapons option, I'm finally seeing non-TH/SS termies on the field actually laying some hurt!

whoooaaa laddie that's a lot of emotion.

yes, termi's needed 5++ saves because they were drastically overcosted otherwise and it approximated their survivability to 2E heavy weaponry, but power weapons weren't the only culprit there, remember IG armies with 5pt plasma guns?

Since then they increased the cost of powerweapons across the board. And lets be fair here, marines avoided combat not because of power weapons, they died much easier overall to all types of weapons in CC in 2E (they only got a 4+sv against S4 basic attacks back then at all) and were in fact far more resilient in 3rd onward in CC, but because they simply operated better as a whole as min/max'd las/plas units for two editions. GK's vanished and sucked for a whole host of reasons completely unrelated to powerweapons.

2+ saves have always been relevant and powerful, the changes to power weapons simply made them moreso. lets not forget that quite often the best thing for taking out 2+sv units in combat has often been another 2+sv unit. Nobody has ever been able to just toss a sergeant with some chumpies into a termi unit and make them vanish, that's ridiculous.

**ZebioLizard2**

2+ saves have always been relevant and powerful, the changes to power weapons simply made them moreso. lets not forget that quite often the best thing for taking out 2+sv units in combat has often been another 2+sv unit. Nobody has ever been able to just toss a sergeant with some chumpies into a termi unit and make them vanish, that's ridiculous.

I'm not sure where your getting that info from, because I saw myself that exact thing many a time, and no 2+ sv units into another is potentially the worst unit you can do. Because often-times that 2+ unit has a power weapon as well, and you take as much damage as you deal, or they have a very strong inv save to back it up. No you threw something with massed power weapon attacks, the most famous being the DCA unit with twin power weapon attacks, cheap cost, and made things with armor disappear, cheap units with power weapons (Which Sergeants usually are) which made terminators disappear before they got to strike.

It's why you never saw any sort of terminators aside from TH/SS hammernators after a while, because there was no point to normal, they'd shoot, shoot, get into combat and be cut down by power weapon attacks.

**Canadian 5th**

I love the response to what is either a troll post or some kid venting because he lost at plastic men. 3 pages and the OP hasn't commented for the past 2 days. Bravo.

**-Loki-**

Yeah, the idea that 2+ saves were fine with regular power weapons is a bit odd when the only 2+ save units that got used with any regularity were Hammernators, and that was because of their 3++ save, not their 2+ save.

**nosferatu1001**

Vaktathi - my heavy CCW bezerkers would love to have a chat to you about that. I regularly would kill 5 termies with 4 zerkers in a unit left over.

Power weapons were way too good in prior editions. Just look at DCA.

**pdawg517**

How to fix Dante? Give him EW. If any SM character deserves it, he does.

The problem isn't just hitting at I1, its hitting at I1 and getting gibbed by a TH or PF. EW solves that problem.

**Andilus Greatsword**

pdawg517 wrote:
How to fix Dante? Give him EW. If any SM character deserves it, he does.

The problem isn't just hitting at I1, its hitting at I1 and getting gibbed by a TH or PF. EW solves that problem.

If they give him EW, lower his wounds to 3 to compensate. I think that's the reason they gave him 4W to begin with.

**Vaktathi**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Vaktathi - my heavy CCW bezerkers would love to have a chat to you about that. I regularly would kill 5 termies with 4 zerkers in a unit left over.

With the old heavy CCW rule, you'd need an average of 40 attacks to kill 5 termi's, 40A, 20hits, 10 wounds, 5 failed saves. So yeah, a 10 strong unit of khornate berzerkers with heavy CCW's across the board and getting off a charge would do it, though to be fair most units don't have that kind of save reduction ability across the entire unit coupled with that sort of killing power.

A full unit of Howling Banshees with *actual* powerweapons would kill only 3 on average if they got off a charge. A 5man squad of normal marines (as referenced earlier) with a fist sergeant in previous editions would kill an average of 2 termi's if they got off a charge.

**pdawg517**

I'm fine with 3W and EW. Seriously there is no reason for him to have 4W at T4. All he does is get derped by S8. I have never had Dante killed from taking 4W. Its always a PF or something else S8.

**nosferatu1001**

Vaktathi wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Vaktathi - my heavy CCW bezerkers would love to have a chat to you about that. I regularly would kill 5 termies with 4 zerkers in a unit left over.
With the old heavy CCW rule, you'd need an average of 40 attacks to kill 5 termi's, 40A, 20hits, 10 wounds, 5 failed saves. So yeah, a 10 strong unit of khornate berzerkers with heavy CCW's across the board and getting off a charge would do it, though to be fair most units don't have that kind of save reduction ability across the entire unit coupled with that sort of killing power.

A full unit of Howling Banshees with *actual* powerweapons would kill only 3 on average if they got off a charge. A 5man squad of normal marines (as referenced earlier) with a fist sergeant in previous editions would kill an average of 2 termi's if they got off a charge.

3's to wound from FC, and champion with power weapon and daemonic strength.

Given ToBB i usually got the charge off.

**Darth Bob**

Zweischneid wrote:
Given that he IS THE OLDEST SPACE MARINE LIVING, Initiative 1 sounds rather fluffy

/ducks

Techincally, Bjorn the Fell-Handed is the oldest living Space Marine.

**Muhr**

Now forgive me because I'm not aware of 6th edition rules since I ain't bought it yet but...Why does a power axe drop his I to 1?

**Grey Templar**

Muhr wrote:
Now forgive me because I'm not aware of 6th edition rules since I ain't bought it yet but...Why does a power axe drop his I to 1?

Because Axes have the Unwieldy special rule, the same rule Thunderhammers, Chainfists, and Powerfists have.

Its the justification why Axes cost the same as a Sword, Maul, and Lance. They all have their own advantages and disadvantages.

Swords are AP3,

Axes are AP2, +1Str, and Unwieldy,

Mauls are +2Str and AP4,

And lances are Ap4, but on the charge are +1str and Ap3.

it allows you to pick the weapon that suits the wielder without paying any extra.

**Darth Bob**

Muhr wrote:
Now forgive me because I'm not aware of 6th edition rules since I ain't bought it yet but...Why does a power axe drop his I to 1?

Yeah, there's no more generic "Power Weapons" any more. There's Power Mauls. Power Axes, Power Swords, etc. All of them have different ups and downs.

**Muhr**

Grey Templar wrote:
Muhr wrote:
Now forgive me because I'm not aware of 6th edition rules since I ain't bought it yet but...Why does a power axe drop his I to 1?

Because Axes have the Unwieldy special rule, the same rule Thunderhammers, Chainfists, and Powerfists have.

Its the justification why Axes cost the same as a Sword, Maul, and Lance. They all have their own advantages and disadvantages.

Swords are AP3,

Axes are AP2, +1Str, and Unwieldy,

Mauls are +2Str and AP4,

And lances are Ap4, but on the charge are +1str and Ap3.

it allows you to pick the weapon that suits the wielder without paying any extra.

Ok thanks for that Darth Bob. Hmm, I'm not convinced that this is progression or improvement from 5th edition. It sounds rather more like it used to be in the early 90's with weapons having modifiers to the armour save. It wasn't anywhere near as streamlined or as...good as it was in 5th edition. Do any of you guys, since I haven't played since 5th Edition due to having no friends, think its actually better this way? Is it an improvement or a nuisance?

*Edit* And does that mean that a power sword is pretty much useless against Terminator Armour?

**Grey Templar**

its better because its made 2+ saves more relevent. It also adds an extra dimension to weapon choices.

In 5th Terminators were almost useless unless they had a 3++ stormshield save or could put out enough high inititive PW attacks to counter 3++

It also allows conversions to mean something.

**Muhr**

Grey Templar wrote:
its better because its made 2+ saves more relevent. It also adds an extra dimension to weapon choices.

In 5th Terminators were almost useless unless they had a 3++ stormshield save or could put out enough high inititive PW attacks to counter 3++

It also allows conversions to mean something.

Ok, I'll take your word for it. I'm a bit dubious but I'm sure you're right. I think I'm just upset that something as hallowed as a power weapon isn't really a power weapon any more. I mean the premise behind a power weapon is that it's surrounded by a disruptive power field that makes a mockery of anything that's otherwise impervious, but now they seem to be something that doesn't add up to what I've come to accept as 'fact'. Silly, I know and you well laugh at my apparent idiocy, but isn't the point of a power weapon so that you can carve through armour as though it was swiss cheese (the kind that's really really soft because it's been out in the sun too long) but now they seem to be something that's completely different. A maul for instance: what about a power maul? How can a power maul, surrounded by a nice blue haze of killy energy, be AP4? What's the point of the 'power' part of it?

*Edit* I've just realized how idiotic I must sound but there must be someone else out there that knows what I'm on about.

**Grey Templar**

Power Axes and TH/PF/CFs get a bonus against vehicles now due to AP2 though.

**Vaktathi**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Vaktathi - my heavy CCW bezerkers would love to have a chat to you about that. I regularly would kill 5 termies with 4 zerkers in a unit left over.
With the old heavy CCW rule, you'd need an average of 40 attacks to kill 5 termi's, 40A, 20hits, 10 wounds, 5 failed saves. So yeah, a 10 strong unit of khornate berzerkers with heavy CCW's across the board and getting off a charge would do it, though to be fair most units don't have that kind of save reduction ability across the entire unit coupled with that sort of killing power.

A full unit of Howling Banshees with *actual* powerweapons would kill only 3 on average if they got off a charge. A 5man squad of normal marines (as referenced earlier) with a fist sergeant in previous editions would kill an average of 2 termi's if they got off a charge.

3's to wound from FC, and champion with power weapon and daemonic strength.

Given ToBB i usually got the charge off.

Forgot about FC. Assuming Champion with DS and PW, it meant you needed 6 guys. At that point, IIRC, they weren't too far off in terms of cost compared with the termi's, and it only went that way under optimal conditions, with most of the casualties inflicted by save reducing not save ignoring weapons.

**Big Mek Wurrzog**

pdawg517 wrote:
I'm fine with 3W and EW. Seriously there is no reason for him to have 4W at T4. All he does is get derped by S8. I have never had Dante killed from taking 4W. Its always a PF or something else S8.

Maybe... now just maybe, with that perfect deepstriking ability you could... I dunno. be a commander and not send him at something strength 8? Maybe the oldest living space marine... i dunno would think tactically? Why does everyone think they deserve eternal warrior, is Dante a robot, is he renowned for living from things that should have killed him? Or is ... he maybe just a very cunning chapter master who doesn't have to be the best for you to understand how to use him and how not to.

**Muhr**

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
pdawg517 wrote:
I'm fine with 3W and EW. Seriously there is no reason for him to have 4W at T4. All he does is get derped by S8. I have never had Dante killed from taking 4W. Its always a PF or something else S8.

Maybe... now just maybe, with that perfect deepstriking ability you could... I dunno. be a commander and not send him at something strength 8? Maybe the oldest living space marine... i dunno would think tactically? Why does everyone think they deserve eternal warrior, is Dante a robot, is he renowned for living from things that should have killed him? Or is ... he maybe just a very cunning chapter master who doesn't have to be the best for you to understand how to use him and how not to.

I think of the Eternal Warrior rule to mean that the character in question is of such venerable status that they just wouldn't go down easy at all. If they get hit by a lascannon, I see the warrior, using all the battle experience that's made them survive for so long, sense it coming at them and maybe turn just enough to glance from them causing injury but not enough to kill them. In the HH book The First Heretic, there is a bit, in a scene on Istvaan V, where Corax becomes the target of some Iron Warrior lascannon teams who concentrate on the most immediate threat in the area, which would certainly be a peeved off Primarch that was dangerously close to your location. Basically the Iron Warriors poured a ton of lascannon fire at him but he twisted and turned like a nutter and a few beams glanced harmlessly from his armour but didn't hurt him. That's the kind of stuff that I see the Eternal Warrior rule meaning. Plot armour for the tabletop basically.

**-Loki-**

Muhr wrote:
Ok, I'll take your word for it. I'm a bit dubious but I'm sure you're right. I think I'm just upset that something as hallowed as a power weapon isn't really a power weapon any more. I mean the premise behind a power weapon is that it's surrounded by a disruptive power field that makes a mockery of anything that's otherwise impervious, but now they seem to be something that doesn't add up to what I've come to accept as 'fact'. Silly, I know and you well laugh at my apparent idiocy, but isn't the point of a power weapon so that you can carve through armour as though it was swiss cheese (the kind that's really really soft because it's been out in the sun too long) but now they seem to be something that's completely different. A maul for instance: what about a power maul? How can a power maul, surrounded by a nice blue haze of killy energy, be AP4? What's the point of the 'power' part of it?

*Edit* I've just realized how idiotic I must sound but there must be someone else out there that knows what I'm on about.

Fluff vs gameplay, basically.

What this did was give you a choice because it gave power weapons roles. It also made 2+ saves relevant in assault - you now choose to strike after them to beat their armour, or at initiative and give them saves.

**Muhr**

-Loki- wrote:
Muhr wrote:
Ok, I'll take your word for it. I'm a bit dubious but I'm sure you're right. I think I'm just upset that something as hallowed as a power weapon isn't really a power weapon any more. I mean the premise behind a power weapon is that it's surrounded by a disruptive power field that makes a mockery of anything that's otherwise impervious, but now they seem to be something that doesn't add up to what I've come to accept as 'fact'. Silly, I know and you well laugh at my apparent idiocy, but isn't the point of a power weapon so that you can carve through armour as though it was swiss cheese (the kind that's really really soft because it's been out in the sun too long) but now they seem to be something that's completely different. A maul for instance: what about a power maul? How can a power maul, surrounded by a nice blue haze of killy energy, be AP4? What's the point of the 'power' part of it?

*Edit* I've just realized how idiotic I must sound but there must be someone else out there that knows what I'm on about.

Fluff vs gameplay, basically.

What this did was give you a choice because it gave power weapons roles. It also made 2+ saves relevant in assault - you now choose to strike after them to beat their armour, or at initiative and give them saves.

Ahh, now that makes sense to this feeble mind of mine. Because I haven't had the fortune to play a 6th Edition battle, I was blind to that. But that does seem like a better state of affairs, Thanks Loki.

**juraigamer**

Editions change things, if you can't adapt, just sell your damn army already.

**Big Mek Wurrzog**

Muhr wrote:
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
pdawg517 wrote:
I'm fine with 3W and EW. Seriously there is no reason for him to have 4W at T4. All he does is get derped by S8. I have never had Dante killed from taking 4W. Its always a PF or something else S8.

Maybe... now just maybe, with that perfect deepstriking ability you could... I dunno. be a commander and not send him at something strength 8? Maybe the oldest living space marine... i dunno would think tactically? Why does everyone think they deserve eternal warrior, is Dante a robot, is he renowned for living from things that should have killed him? Or is ... he maybe just a very cunning chapter master who doesn't have to be the best for you to understand how to use him and how not to.

I think of the Eternal Warrior rule to mean that the character in question is of such venerable status that they just wouldn't go down easy at all. If they get hit by a lascannon, I see the warrior, using all the battle experience that's made them survive for so long, sense it coming at them and maybe turn just enough to glance from them causing injury but not enough to kill them. In the HH book The First Heretic, there is a bit, in a scene on Istvaan V, where Corax becomes the target of some Iron Warrior lascannon teams who concentrate on the most immediate threat in the area, which would certainly be a peeved off Primarch that was dangerously close to your location. Basically the Iron Warriors poured a ton of lascannon fire at him but he twisted and turned like a nutter and a few beams glanced harmlessly from his armour but didn't hurt him. That's the kind of stuff that I see the Eternal Warrior rule meaning. Plot armour for the tabletop basically.

I appreciate the thought put into this but that example sounds like failed to hits, snap shots or just straight lucky low to wound rolls or an invulnerable save. To me, Eternal warrior represents Yarrick and/or Ghazzghul a veteran who is so dead hard iron that they survive bolt guns to the face ordinance strikes on top of their heads or the gnashing energy coursing their their veins when struck by a force weapon and living to not just tell the tale but to also give retribution for it. Eternal warrior seems to be given at the drop of a hat now and days and it's honestly the stupidest thing out there in my opinion. I am pleased people like Kharn the Betrayer still lack this ability because it makes for a gritty combat ideal

As far as a primarch... they suspend reality so much i think we shouldn't even bother comparing them to generalizations do you?