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I get the impression people are saying "go big or go home" about different tactics. eg. 3 wraiths won't do much but 6 with a destroyer is amazing; 1 spyder won't do much but 3+ makes a nice scarab farm; 1 night scythe will get shot down but 3 or more are nasty...

If you made an army with a little bit of everything and no duplicate units, would it be too weak?

If you made an army with a little bit of everything and no duplicate units, would it be too weak?

I use a little bit of everything in my army and it does great.The only unit i take more then one of is immortals and I use two annihilation barges but it can be easily swapped for something else.

My basic set up is
Zandrekh
2 mid-large immortal squads (i use one of each)
a large Unit of wraiths
a mid size unit of Scarabs
Max Spiders( I use a gloom prism on one )
2 Anni barges
a Nightscythe(Deathmarks+despair )

phantajisto wrote:

If you made an army with a little bit of everything and no duplicate units, would it be too weak?

What you will often find is that an army list is picked so that it 'does something' its not really important for the purposes of the discussion what that something is. But in order to do something, you need the correct troops, in the correct quantities to both make it work, and to give it some redundancy. you will also probably use selections of units that complement each other.

For example:
3 wraiths are a hard hitting, but quite fragile unit, you can expect them to do 'ok' in a fight, but they don't have the toughness or wounds to stand up to much, 6 wraiths on the other hand, can tackle much larger units, and absorb a lot more punishment, and when you throw a destroyer lord in there, you will find they hit even harder because they have prefered enemy.

Spyders are a useful unit to have around, and they have a few nifty abilities, they can rpair vehicles, they can make you pretty much invulnerable to psychic powers, and they can add to units of scarabs. so if you are taking lots of scarabs, you should also take lots of spyders because their abilities complement each other superbly

Then there is the matter of redundancy. everything in your army does something, it has an effect on the game which will be largely unique to that unit, sure other units can do it as well, but not AS well, so if you take 1 destroyer with a heavy gauss cannon, for your dedicated longish range anti tank, and he dies, then you are out of long range anti tank units, so, most players tend to take doubles of important units so that when one of them inevitably snuffs it, they still have that capability on the tabletop,

What you will find if you take a little of everything is that while you will have the weapons to deal with just about anything, you won't have enough, and if you don't run multiples, your opponent can simply target the units that are the biggest threat to him, and remove them, its also a lot trickier to play an unfocussed list than it is a focussed one because it doesn't have a particular playstyle, or theme, and the units you have might not be the best choices for whatever it is you are trying to do

Thanks, that was an awesome reply and really cleared things up. While the list above does have variety, I can see it has redundancy too in the 2 barges, max spyders etc.

I've got loads of good unit combos and synergies out of this thread, but what would the different overall playstyles or strategies be?

I've found these:

- Air Force: Max DS and NS. Zip around shooting them up.

- Wraith Wing: Several big wraith units with Destroyer Lords. Lay into them.

- Silver Tide: Loads of Warriors, OrbLords and Ghost Arks. March across board refusing to die.

- Scarab Farm: 3-9 Spyders, lots of scarabs, Imotekh. Make it night and scuttle across board to tarpit infantry and eat vehicles. Add Destroyer Lords for more punch.

- AV13 Wall: Max out on Arks and Barges with a couple of Stalkers. Shoot up the enemy.


To be honest these strategies sound A. expensive, B. uninspiring... What else works well?

The above army builds are just the "more competitive" ones.
If you're not adverse to having fun, you could try one of the other builds from 5th that hasn't seen much action in 6th:
-TremorCrons
-Double Stalkers/MSU Warrior units with Lance-teks attached/tons of Tesla Immortals, Heavy Destroyers, Doomsday Arks (anything that will take advantage of the twin linking the Stalkers grant)
-Royal Court Disco Inferno

Otherwise, you're free to come up with your own variation.
I used to play with a list I'd nicknamed "Blitzkrieg".
Imotekh + Chrono-tek
"Storm-troopers" (Warriors in NS with Storm-tek)
"Shock-troopers" (Tesla Immortals)
Wraiths
Death & Despair squads
Scarabs & Spyders
Deathscythes
It was majority surgical-strike close proximity fighting (something you should really try to avoid with 'Crons), all just for fun (hence the whole "lightning" theme), but I still tried to make sure it had redundancy (if one anti-tank unit got taken out, I had back ups, etc).
It tore through a few armies in friendly games, but I don't think it's anywhere near competitive.
Still fun, though.

Just come up with an idea for what you want your army to do, and build around that.

phantajisto wrote:

To be honest these strategies sound A. expensive, B. uninspiring... What else works well?

Generally speaking, competitive lists are more effective because they quite often spam a unit, or combination of units, if you spam AV13 vehicles (ghost arks, doomsday arks, annihilation barges etc) then the ide is to have more AV13 units than your opponent can reliably deal with. most armies tend to have a balance of units with different abilities, and if you stretch their anti-tank abilities you can ensure that your vehicles can do their thing, and even if you lose a few of them, you still have plenty of them on the battlefield.
The same is also true of flier spam, and wraithspam. one unit of wraiths, or one flier can be dealt with, but when you run multiples, you can ensure that at least one of them will do what its supposed to. Spam armies are regarded as being somewhat overpowered, not because the units themselves are, but because you will have more of whatever it is you are spamming than your opponent can deal with.

There are plenty of combinations of units that work well, and the most commonly used lists are what are regarded as being the most competitive, and of course easiest to use. Wraith spam and flier spam are pretty much 'no brainer' army lists, and while they do require some skill to use, they are effective even in the hands of a novice, don't feel that you have to take them to stand a chance, because there are plenty of other tricks you can use that both catch your opponent off guard because its unconventional, and are horribly effective to boot

My own necron army is built along the following lines, the exact list varies with points.

Zahndrehk + Obyron
1-2 crypteks with veils of darkness
4+ units of immortals
1 unit of lychguard
2+ nightscythes
1+ doomscythe
maybe some annihilaion barges
if points allow tomb blades

the key is that i can drop my units where i want with transports, and teleport around the board with veils and obyron.

you can also try things like Orikan and a c'tan with writhing worldscape (not as effective as it used to be),
My favourite tactic from the book is combining whip coils with times arrow (for killing pretty much anything)
you can combine the abilities of Szeras and Anarkyr to make a unit of immortals REALLY nasty and base an army around that.

They key is, in my oppinion, to pick a 'theme' for your army, and it really doesn't matter what the theme is, and then base the rest of your list around that

madtankbloke wrote:

My own necron army is built along the following lines, the exact list varies with points.

Zahndrehk + Obyron
1-2 crypteks with veils of darkness
4+ units of immortals
1 unit of lychguard
2+ nightscythes
1+ doomscythe
maybe some annihilaion barges
if points allow tomb blades

Just as a note, you can't have a second Cryptek with a Veil of Darkness unless you include a second Overlord character. Obryon does not unlock a royal court, and since you can't take the same wargear options twice within the same court, you can't take a second Veil of Darkness legally without the second Overlord.

Thanks for all the advice. I really like the sound of the dual stalker list. What else would you put in it? I got the megaforce today so will be basing around that. Something like this?

Overlord/Anrakyr
4 Crypteks
8 Warriors x3
10 Immortals (Tesla)
2 Triarch Stalkers
3 Tomb Blades x2 (Particle Blasters)
1 Annihilation Barge
1 Doomsday Ark
+ box has Spyder and Scarabs

Strategy would be to put Target Relay on enemy units and blast them with things that benefit from TL. Pyrrhian Immortals would be key unit. Include Spyder to repair the Stalkers maybe. Could this work?

 skoffs wrote:

 DragonRider wrote:
10 Deathmarks in a NightScythe.

Hi, you must be new here.
(everyone knows it's FIVE Deathmarks in a Night Scythe AND a Despair-tek).


Also, Pro-Tip: try not to charge anything with Warriors.
Just don't.

I know I'm a little late to this party and I didn't read every stinkin' page of the tatica YET but...I respectfully disagree with my esteemed colleague. Obviously you need to be careful about what you charge however I have had success in charging all kinds of stuff. Recently I assaulted a 4 man unit of Eldar rangers with only 5 warriors. In another match I charged some tau crisis suits with, I think it was, a 10 man warrior unit. Would I assault a 10 man paladin squad? Uh, no. But under the right circumstances I could see warriors charging stuff. I also play a lot of wraiths and am looking at adding 40 orks as a meat shield distraction ally so maybe I'm just charge crazy, who knows...

phantajisto wrote:
Thanks for all the advice. I really like the sound of the dual stalker list. What else would you put in it? I got the megaforce today so will be basing around that. Something like this?

Overlord/Anrakyr
4 Crypteks
8 Warriors x3
10 Immortals (Tesla)
2 Triarch Stalkers
3 Tomb Blades x2 (Particle Blasters)
1 Annihilation Barge
1 Doomsday Ark
+ box has Spyder and Scarabs

Strategy would be to put Target Relay on enemy units and blast them with things that benefit from TL. Pyrrhian Immortals would be key unit. Include Spyder to repair the Stalkers maybe. Could this work?

Of course it could, but you want synergy with the TL ability. Zahndrek provides this better than Anyr, other than Anyr gets an arrow. Zahndrekh lets you get Tank Hunters, lets you get night vision to get those hits on the turns where its dark, lets you REMOVE STEALTH if its night fight... he's just too good. Also, even though the Annihilation Barge is AWESOME, he doesn't benefit from the twin-linking like the other stuff in your army.
Something that might work better:
Zahndrekh
Overlord
Double Destro-Court to be split up in twos across 5 infantry units
10 Tesla Immortals for Zahn and OL to hide in
4x5 Warriors with 2 of the destros a piece
2 monoliths or DD Arks
2 Stalkers

Thats about 1800, depending on upgrades, still leaves you 1 heavy slot, all of your fast... who knows, tomb blades? I've run a similar list a few times and beat Draigowing and a great player playing Eldar/Tau allies. Maybe look into the TL Heavy Gauss on the Stalkers to increase range.
Good luck!

^
If you're running that, I'd recommend the Doomsday Arks over the Monoliths (with the Stalkers packing Heavy Gauss Cannons).
The combined distance and accuracy these things will put out will be WELL worth it.

Also, tesla Immortals > Warriors, when you've got a Stalker.

Good idea, might to shave a few points here and there to make it all fit. I'd like to see the mathhammer on all of the twin linked tesla, especially when relating to having to snapfire at fliers.

No reason to not take A. barges even if you are trying to base it off a stalker twin-link strat. Also gives you some AA defense since I wouldn't waste a stalker trying to hit a flyer on a six.

Ok have to ask newbie questions but i want to straight some things to those with who I'm playing with ( yep, kind of "checkall" bastards )

-About that great idea of deathmarks+2xdespairtek in NS, take a trip->mark->drop off->unleash hell---->but! Do despairtec will also wound on 2+? since abyssal staff aims into target leadership not toughness...?

-What would You recommend to take against armies with higher then usual T (like nids and Chaos nurgle marines+deamons, those you mostly meet, cant say easy opponent for meh )

-And about Wraiths with coils, do coils still working on next turns of cc with same units? (if wraiths stuck in cc for more then 1 round )

-Which unit would do better in cc combined with Obyron, Lychguards or Preatorians?

 Lithzur wrote:
Ok have to ask newbie questions but i want to straight some things to those with who I'm playing with ( yep, kind of "checkall" bastards )

-About that great idea of deathmarks+2xdespairtek in NS, take a trip->mark->drop off->unleash hell---->but! Do despairtec will also wound on 2+? since abyssal staff aims into target leadership not toughness...?

Yes, Despairteks would wound the marked unit on a 2+.

-What would You recommend to take against armies with higher then usual T (like nids and Chaos nurgle marines+deamons, those you mostly meet, cant say easy opponent for meh )

The above. Wraiths are also good. Tesla Destuctors are good. Really, quite a few options for high T.

-And about Wraiths with coils, do coils still working on next turns of cc with same units? (if wraiths stuck in cc for more then 1 round )

Yes.

-Which unit would do better in cc combined with Obyron, Lychguards or Preatorians?

I would think LG for Obyron. Is blasphemous on the interewebs to mention them, but Flayed Ones actually pair with Oby pretty well too. Praetorians are ideal as a Destroyer Lord escort (they are really better then Wraiths in this regard, but most people haven't figured that out yet).

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Lithzur wrote:
Ok have to ask newbie questions but i want to straight some things to those with who I'm playing with ( yep, kind of "checkall" bastards )

-About that great idea of deathmarks+2xdespairtek in NS, take a trip->mark->drop off->unleash hell---->but! Do despairtec will also wound on 2+? since abyssal staff aims into target leadership not toughness...?

Yes, Despairteks would wound the marked unit on a 2+.

-What would You recommend to take against armies with higher then usual T (like nids and Chaos nurgle marines+deamons, those you mostly meet, cant say easy opponent for meh )

The above. Wraiths are also good. Tesla Destuctors are good. Really, quite a few options for high T.

-And about Wraiths with coils, do coils still working on next turns of cc with same units? (if wraiths stuck in cc for more then 1 round )

Yes.

-Which unit would do better in cc combined with Obyron, Lychguards or Preatorians?

I would think LG for Obyron. Is blasphemous on the interewebs to mention them, but Flayed Ones actually pair with Oby pretty well too. Praetorians are ideal as a Destroyer Lord escort (they are really better then Wraiths in this regard, but most people haven't figured that out yet).

Praetorians dont have 2 wound either do they have a invul save which wraiths got and wraiths can attack first.

Thx for fast reply

I would think LG for Obyron. Is blasphemous on the interewebs to mention them, but Flayed Ones actually pair with Oby pretty well too. Praetorians are ideal as a Destroyer Lord escort (they are really better then Wraiths in this regard, but most people haven't figured that out yet).

I was thinking about that combination as well and there is few "+" and "-" here. Coils grand to make sure wounds if not kills, wraiths have more A then preatorians and rending. Rod of covenantgot ap=2 but still s=5 ...not sure if it is a deal

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Lithzur wrote:


-What would You recommend to take against armies with higher then usual T (like nids and Chaos nurgle marines+deamons, those you mostly meet, cant say easy opponent for meh )

The above. Wraiths are also good. Tesla Destuctors are good. Really, quite a few options for high T.

If you're up against blobs of little nids, the Doomsday Ark puts down some nice holes in their formations.

Most of the time its loads of outflanking gstealers, hidden Ygstealrs and jumping from underground trygon leaving that damn whole for the rest of nids to come out from not mention about hes 'brother' mavloc and in all of that i find it hard way to avoid beeing lock in cc with rest of my crons

Speaking of Flayed Ones and Obyron, if you were running a list with Immotek, Zahn, Oby and Flayed ones, does the Oby's Ghostwalk Mantle allow you to deepstrike without scatter near the unit with Bloodswarm Scarabs?
Again, I don't see me ever doing this in a game, but hey, there's always a chance.

Brymm wrote:Speaking of Flayed Ones and Obyron, if you were running a list with Immotek, Zahn, Oby and Flayed ones, does the Oby's Ghostwalk Mantle allow you to deepstrike without scatter near the unit with Bloodswarm Scarabs?
Again, I don't see me ever doing this in a game, but hey, there's always a chance.

Only if Zandrekh is attached to the Flayed Ones who first DS near the Bloodswarmed enemy unit.

PROTIP: don't do that.

Hold up,
So you attach Oby to the Flayed Ones and start them on the board. You have Immotek and he infects a squad in the backfield with Bloodswarm Scarabs. You then declare Ghostwalk Mantle in your movement phase, Deep Strike Oby and the Flayed Ones within 6inches of that Bloodswarm unit, you don't scatter, right?
Also, if things are going poorly for Zahndrekh, you can deepstrike back with no scatter! Then latter, deepstrike back to the bloodswarm squad! That would be totally sweet if it wasn't TOTALLY TERRIBLE!!!

You can't assault out of Deepstrike and Obyron lacks an orb and an inv save so generally not great strategy unless you preemptively plan for this with Royal Court attachment's or maybe bring Zahndrekh along since you won't be using up a FoC slot and he brings an orb and 2+/3++ save. You'll be eating points up fast and not taking advantage of the Nightfight that Imotek brings to the table. IMO, the only advantage Bloodswarm brings is a cheap distraction for 65 points that may or may not have an effect on the game.

Praetorians dont have 2 wound either do they have a invul save which wraiths got and wraiths can attack first.

The TPs are more resilient point for point against most of the weapons in the game. Whip Coils are nice, but don't protect the Wraiths from getting shot up before they reach CC, which is ultimately what your Dlord escort needs the most, bullet eating longevity. He does just fine once he gets to CC, Whip Coils or no Whip Coils (Plus, if you're running the Dlord with the TPs you can still run another unit of Wraiths with WC incase you absolutely need them...bottom line is the better unit to have your DLord attached to initially is the TPs).

Hi guys. I'd appreciate some feedback on my 1750 point tournament list. I have two versions, both of which I've tested a bit:

Version 1
2x Destroyer Lord (2+, MSS)
2x 6 Warriors in Scythes
2x 10 Tesla Immortals
2x 6 Wraiths (2 Coils each)
3x Annihilation Barge
1746 points

Version 2
2x Destroyer Lord (2+, MSS)
2x 5 Tesla Immortals in Scythes
2x 5 Tesla Immortals
2x 6 Wraiths (3 Coils + 2 Coils)
1x 10 Scarabs
3x Annihilation Barge
1750 points

The second version is a bit light on troops, but the scarabs do add more threats and a better way of killing vehicles. I kinda prefer the first version, but I haven't actually had any problems with the MSU troops in the two games I've tested the second one (against chaos marines + IG and against dark eldar + eldar).

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Praetorians dont have 2 wound either do they have a invul save which wraiths got and wraiths can attack first.

The TPs are more resilient point for point against most of the weapons in the game. Whip Coils are nice, but don't protect the Wraiths from getting shot up before they reach CC, which is ultimately what your Dlord escort needs the most, bullet eating longevity. He does just fine once he gets to CC, Whip Coils or no Whip Coils (Plus, if you're running the Dlord with the TPs you can still run another unit of Wraiths with WC incase you absolutely need them...bottom line is the better unit to have your DLord attached to initially is the TPs).

So why isnt anyone using TP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TP die easily to AP 1,2 and 3 which Wraiths dont, and wraiths are also fearless.

I have a question for you necron players.

Are they viable (elite) CC necron armies possible at a 1000-1250 range?

The reason i'm asking is bc my main army is orks, and I play a 'shooty horde' kind o list, which means LOTS of models to move, LOTS of models to fire & LOTS of models to charge each turn; making it very slow to play. This is kinda embarresing towards my opponents sometimes, I like the tactics of it but I wish I could sometimes play something quicker. Buying an elite ork list (with meganobs, 20$ a piece) is as expensive as buying a second army, so I was thinking of necrons.

I like those guys with the spears a lot, so was thinking about making a list around this. Should be way less models, but still a bit of comparable tactically. So those spearman, maybe a few of those fast attack crawlers with whips, and some anti tank (forgive me for not knowing names). Can that succeed?

^You could do a "mini-wraithwing", build the list around these guys. A dozen wraiths (two full units of 6), one or two destroyer lords as HQs and then just fill rest of the list with warriors and/or immortals, whichever you prefer. I think it could work. For anti tank you can just use warriors (they can glance anything) and also scarab swarms if you want more close combat.

The spearmen you mentioned are propably lychguard with warscythes, cool models but not that good due to being slow and expensive. You might add a unit if you want to go up in points from the 1000 point level.

Generally anything with "canoptek" in its name is a useful close combat unit, anything else not so much.

 Tomten wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Praetorians dont have 2 wound either do they have a invul save which wraiths got and wraiths can attack first.

The TPs are more resilient point for point against most of the weapons in the game. Whip Coils are nice, but don't protect the Wraiths from getting shot up before they reach CC, which is ultimately what your Dlord escort needs the most, bullet eating longevity. He does just fine once he gets to CC, Whip Coils or no Whip Coils (Plus, if you're running the Dlord with the TPs you can still run another unit of Wraiths with WC incase you absolutely need them...bottom line is the better unit to have your DLord attached to initially is the TPs).

So why isnt anyone using TP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TP die easily to AP 1,2 and 3 which Wraiths dont, and wraiths are also fearless.

TP's are also fearless. It is their lack of any inv. save and the only character that can attach to the squad effectively is the D. Lord (which has no Inv. Save) that limits the TP. RC members can't join TP, they can't start the game in a Night Scythe, and they are too expensive to be used effectively(10 cost you 400 base). For the same base cost as TP, you can get a full squad of Wraiths with 3 whip coils, and a D. Lord with 2+ save and MSS, which has more wounds, more attacks, and a better save. The only advantage TP have over Wraiths is that they can Resurrect.

MLKTH wrote:
^You could do a "mini-wraithwing", build the list around these guys. A dozen wraiths (two full units of 6), one or two destroyer lords as HQs and then just fill rest of the list with warriors and/or immortals, whichever you prefer. I think it could work. For anti tank you can just use warriors (they can glance anything) and also scarab swarms if you want more close combat.

The spearmen you mentioned are propably lychguard with warscythes, cool models but not that good due to being slow and expensive. You might add a unit if you want to go up in points from the 1000 point level.

Generally anything with "canoptek" in its name is a useful close combat unit, anything else not so much.

Thanks for much. Warriors hit S8?
And what if I combine them (the lynchguard) with Vargard Obyron ? Can't that speed them up?