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Temi-librarians are pretty good choices for shooty marines, as gate is a pretty useful mobility tool. Downside to them is still just 2 wounds, so they are very frail.

If you consider the badab books then some other even more appealing options pop up:

Lias Issodon 140pts - gives everyone stealth, bs6, has special ammunition. Only armour 3 though with no invuln, so dont keep him in front but damn will you be tough to take out of cover.

Adeth? 165pts - psychic mastery 2 librarian who gives everyone infiltrate, gives his own squad (as a psychic power) shroud and defensive grenades, modifies reserve rolls.

The psychic mastery 3 librarian - 2+ armour which he can convert to a 2+ invuln, gets ALL libby powers or biomancy powers, so you can give him iron arm and endurance to make him/his squad very tough to deal with. Alternatly he can be the ultimate utility with all our marine powers and gate around everywhere.

RIght now I'm leading towards Issodon mostly because stealth is a pretty big boon for any speeders/bikes we have wandering around (both of which are very common tools i uses, 3 man attack bikes and a dual HF speeder). Losing gate though hurts quite a bit, so it's a tradeoff.

I really don't know where else to put this so it's going into the tactics thread haha. So I played a game last night against a foot guard list at 2k. And my 1 thunderfire cannon killed 88 models in 4 turns. What a ridiculous piece of artillery, and thanks to bolster ruins didn't take a single wound. The guy packed a blob of IG into an aegis line and just got WASTED by the cover ignoring blasts. First I killed his commissar with Telion on a quad gun then got 28 kills turn 1, 23 turn 2 squad was toast. Then 20 turn 3 on another squad, and finally to more or less finish off his second blob squad with 17 turn 4. It was wild and I'm now in love with the thunderfire even more than I already was. Sure against meq it's not superb but against orcs, nids, IG and the like it is beast.

Oh no dont worry he's good against meq too, str 6 means 2+ to wound vs marines, so if they get packed in at all ur looking at 10-15 wounds for them to fail.


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I've even had my TFC glance a dreadnought to death.

oh man, I want a land raider Achilles now.

Yah I am currently converting my second thunderfire into an Achilles for an upcoming apoc game. Should be silly, ceramite, thunderfire, TL melta sponsons? Good LORD!

In the next apoc game I play I'll have an Achilles, a warhound(I built myself) a vindicator siege breaker line, and 3 drop pods full of melta sternguard. I can't wait!

Going back to the TFC and Sternguard discussions on the first page...

The list I'm putting together is planned to use a combi-melta Sternguard squad in a drop pod. The rest of the army is mechanized however, as I'm a bigger fan of mech than Drop Pod Assault lists.

Is it worthwhile adding a TFC with pod, and having that Pod come in Turn 1 (potentially starting with TFC on the board, just the Pod in reserves) so I can hold off the Sternguard?

A better question may be: If you are going to run at least one Drop Pod, is there a minimum to the amount you should run?

Dont do a TFC in a pod. The point of a TFC is long ranged firepower thats difficult to kill (due to ruins bolstering). TFCs fold in CC and is not something that really benefits from being up close and personal (besides, wouldnt the drop pod count as him having moved and so you couldnt fire the first turn due to it being heavy 4?). Stick him in your main lines in some ruins for a 3+ cover save and let your opponent waste fire trying to pick him off.

Instead what you put in that second droppod is just a vanilla dreadnough with heavy flamer and flamer on the DCCW. Now you get 2 flame templates which is a much better way of alpha striking something and if they dont kill the dread you get a good CC guy in their midst too.

Alternatly just go to FW and get a seige dread, str 6 ap 3 flamer. mmm.

You'd be better dropping the Sternguard in on T1 than the pod. The strength of drop-guard is their ability to drop in and destroying a high priority (and high points) target before it gets to do anything. While you can hold off on them, you will usually get better returns on your investment if you cash in on them immediately (to illustrate, if a 5 man Sternguard squad drops in and destroys a Land Raider on turn 1 before it gets to do anything, you'll have effectively negated about 240 points of his list with significantly fewer points and still have 5 men and a pod left over, whereas if you kill that same target with the drop-guard on turn 2 or later, the tank has likely achieved something, reducing your ROI. (I did the math, and statistically speaking 5 Sternguard with combi-meltas have about a 97% chance of getting a vehicle explodes damage result against an AV 14 target if they are able to shoot at it from within 6")). So if you want to drop in a Thunderfire Cannon and Sternguard, I would suggest picking up a third drop pod for a tactical squad so you can drop the Sternguard and the Thunderfire on T1.

Although the more I think about it, aren't you just better off deploying the Thunderfire Cannon on the table without a drop pod? You are basically going to be setting the thing up in cover anyways, since it has an amazing range, so why bother with podding? If you were going all pods, I could see taking a Drop Pod on the TFC as a 'null pod' (a drop pod with nothing in it so that you can either drop or hold back an extra squad on T1), but if you are going mech I'm not sure it would be worth it.

RegalPhantom wrote:
You'd be better dropping the Sternguard in on T1 than the pod. The strength of drop-guard is their ability to drop in and destroying a high priority (and high points) target before it gets to do anything. While you can hold off on them, you will usually get better returns on your investment if you cash in on them immediately (to illustrate, if a 5 man Sternguard squad drops in and destroys a Land Raider on turn 1 before it gets to do anything, you'll have effectively negated about 240 points of his list with significantly fewer points and still have 5 men and a pod left over, whereas if you kill that same target with the drop-guard on turn 2 or later, the tank has likely achieved something, reducing your ROI. (I did the math, and statistically speaking 5 Sternguard with combi-meltas have about a 97% chance of getting a vehicle explodes damage result against an AV 14 target if they are able to shoot at it from within 6")). So if you want to drop in a Thunderfire Cannon and Sternguard, I would suggest picking up a third drop pod for a tactical squad so you can drop the Sternguard and the Thunderfire on T1.

Although the more I think about it, aren't you just better off deploying the Thunderfire Cannon on the table without a drop pod? You are basically going to be setting the thing up in cover anyways, since it has an amazing range, so why bother with podding? If you were going all pods, I could see taking a Drop Pod on the TFC as a 'null pod' (a drop pod with nothing in it so that you can either drop or hold back an extra squad on T1), but if you are going mech I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Thank you, I had been wondering primarily in cases where an opponent reserves his heavy vehicles, but I'm not sure that's going to be a huge problem in the long run.

And yeah, the TFC would likely start on the table, the pod would just be an empty pod in case I run across an army where having the Sternguard come in first turn may not be as efficient (see also: Daemons).

The way I was thinking was like this:

Opponent starts everything on the table: Sternguard come in first turn. Null Pod lands wherever whenever it comes in.
Opponent makes heavy use of reserves: Empty Pod comes in first turn, Sternguard have a better shot of being able to drop and pop on something good.

I always like to have at least 2 pods to do what your describing. It increases your flexibility. And even if you decide to drop the sternguard first you still have that extra pod to block vehicle movement or to create road blocks.

One pod=suicide unit.
Two pods=as above, with something to drop on an objective later in the game.
Three pods has options. You can do two separate suicide drops, or drop them close to each other to actually try to hold the LZ. This is probably the most I'd field in a hybrid list. (as in, some, but not all, drop pods) Past this point I think the first turn punch is not worth the rest of your army coming in piecemeal, unless you are going all-in on a drop pod list.

I'd personally feel a little sleazy dropping empty pods, but by the rules it's legal. Of curse, it's balanced by paying a 35 point tax just to bump up your first turn numbers.

The thing with taking a null pod in the event of an opponent who heavily uses reserves is that you have to decide if your ability to add some control to your Sternguard is worth 35 points? While a null pod can provide a useful distraction and block LOS for a turn, it is still paying 35 points for more control over your Sternguard and a 1 Turn wall that might kill a guardsman or something. I'd also like to note that if your opponent goes reserves heavy with his tanks, you are already at an advantage because that means that there are multiple turns where those tanks AREN'T trying to kill your men in armour. However, you are right in that if the drop-guard aren't able to show up next to something and nuke it in the same turn, they lose a lot of their effectiveness. I'm not sure what the right answer is, so my best response would be if you have the time and money to test it out, go for it.

Pods don't block LOS, though they can provide cover. They can be very useful in providing a restriction to movement however, forcing your enemy to detour their forces, especially if you can plunk it in an area that already has movement restricting terrain.

I've been building an all infantry list here, and it's been really fun thus far. Playing with 5 Tactical Squads, an Assault Squad and 2 10 man Devastator Squads lead by a Captain with a Command Squad is awesome, I bring 86 Marine bodies and have lots of guns to shoot you with, lots of guys to assault you with, and lots of special/heavy weapons spread out everywhere, not to mention tons of scoring unit options! If you have the models for this army, I suggest trying it, it puts the capabilities of your core models into perspective very well, and reminds me of how much a mere Tactical Squad can do.

 evildrspock wrote:
I've been building an all infantry list here, and it's been really fun thus far. Playing with 5 Tactical Squads, an Assault Squad and 2 10 man Devastator Squads lead by a Captain with a Command Squad is awesome, I bring 86 Marine bodies and have lots of guns to shoot you with, lots of guys to assault you with, and lots of special/heavy weapons spread out everywhere, not to mention tons of scoring unit options! If you have the models for this army, I suggest trying it, it puts the capabilities of your core models into perspective very well, and reminds me of how much a mere Tactical Squad can do.

I like the list spock All infantry, all the time! also, the captain loadout looks killer!

Recently a veteran at my local GW suggested to me to re-work my tactical squads with a radical, and dare i say heretical, idea. I shouldrun a 10-man squad with Nothing but bolters. no special weapons, no heavy weapons, no sergeant upgrades. And dare I say it was fun!

I played two games with marines like this: a 1,000pt game against another vanilla marine list, and a 2250pt list against a Blood Angel army.


The bolters worked awesomely! I didn't have to worry about getting guys into position to melt tanks or to use flamers, just shoot the ever-loveing crap out of things! and I won both games like this. it was the most fun I had with tacticals too.

Followup question on Drop Pods:

Assuming you are planning on deep striking additional units (not necessarily more drop pods), are locater beacons worth it?

Using my example unit above, I'm also planning on a unit of 5 hammernators (yes...this is a Vulkan list, but I think this question would apply to normal Marines too). The idea would be to follow up a 1st turn sternguard strike with terminators on subsequent turns, either tarpitting or distracting from the mechanized troops.

The locater beacon would allow for a pinpoint drop (assuming the opponent doesn't destroy the pod, which is likely given the target saturation I hope to provide him with mechanized forces and the sternguard).

Actually, putting a beacon on the sergeant of a group of scout bikes is a great way to get a T1 pinpoint drop, plus you get the additional close support from the bikes. They aren't as useful as they used to be as they can't charge on T1 anymore... but 4-6 astartes grenade launcher shots can be quite handy. Works best if you have first turn obviously as killing a few bikes isn't all that difficult.

The concern would be that the list wouldn't have the scout bikes (not enough points). Drop pods can get the beacon for the cost of a pintle stormbolter on any of the vehicles.

I can toss what I'm looking at doing up in the army list section if you'd like.

EDIT: To clarify, the concern is for the terminators to get the drop when they deep strike in. The Sternguard I'd probably be okay with a bit of scatter.

I used 4 drop pods with locater beacons last weekend, out of a total of 7 and they worked wonders for my deepstriking assault marines (ba's so had a few). Used double force org at 4k points and started the game with 3 tanks and a 5 man squad, against 4k points worth of orks!, made for a good picture

So I went out and bought a crap load of termi's on the cheap to make a snooty termi squad. What's your thoughts on assault cannons verse cyclones? I was thinking 10 man squad with 2 assault cannons personally because I feel they synergize with the storm bolters. Because like Spock I want to start an all foot list. It'd be something like
Termi Libby(possibly Lysander)140
4tacticals mm/meltax2, ML/meltax2, 4xrhino 840
10 termi's w/2x assault cannon, chain fist 465
2xthunderfire 200
5x devs w/3ML, 1LC 175
And I'd have about 200points left over for assault marines to cover my FA/heavy support in case of heavy guns/scouring.

Id go with attack bikes (200 pts gets you 2 squads of 2, or you could do a 3 man bike squad and free up 10-20 points for a dual HF speeder or HF/MM speeder) over assault marines but otherwise seems fine.

Id go with assault cannons vs cyclone. Rending is super supe are useful and better vs charges.

I don't have the attack bikes to do that. I have speeders, but I want the list to be foot based(yes I know I have rhinos I could trade out the rhinos for pods). What do you think about using a death wing squad with belial instead of vanilla termies? For 50 less points I'd get 1less assault cannon, 4 less models but only 2 less wounds, and I'd have an apothecary to make up for the small arms fire/plasma. I could then guarantee they come down first turn with a tactical in a pod if I chose that. I could mix in 3 TH/SS and have a super durable unit that could support a lnother squad and make where they come down a priority.

Im guessnig hte apothecary gives them FNP? I mean, that definitely seems pretty good but i dont really know the DA codex at all so i couldnt give much advice there.

I prefer more shooty to terminators, but that's just me

Yah it's basically a vanilla marine squad that can only have 5 people, and is allowed to mix assault weaps(TH/SS, twin light claws) with shooty elements. Belial is a P.sword storm bolter termi lord that can take thunderhammer, allows one marine to be a apoth(yes he give FNP) and also makes deathwing terminators scoring and have drop pod assault basically (half rounded up first turn).so my squad would be
Belial TH/SS
TH/SS Termi
Assault cannon apothecary
P.sword sergeant
Chain fist SB
And power fist SB.
410 points
6 guys 8 wounds, 2storm shields, assault cannon, apothecary, 3 storm bolters, 2 power fists, 1chain fist, and guaranteed to come down first turn.

Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers are both good, really depends on what the rest of your army is bringing. Cyclone Missile Launchers can fill a void of tank hunting if you are a little lacking; however, Assault Cannons bring great versatility too. I personally usually take one Assault Cannon if I bring a 5 man unit, or 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers if I bring 10, usually led by Lysander.

Yah my anti armor is pretty well covered between 5ML, 2MM, 4melta guns,krak and melta bombs on tactical sergs, and a las cannon. And if need be with the terminator power fists,chain fist, and assault cannon. Granted i havent ran the list i posted yet its more just a thoght ive wanted to try lately. I also wanna run Lysander with 2x assault cannons at 10man strong and laugh as squads melt away under the 24"bubble they create. 16 tl SB shots and 8 str 6 rending shots would make a lot of infantry squads wilt.

My list that I've been doing really really well with now is a nice mixed mech/foot list gunline.
Term Libby
3x tactcals w/MM/melta, ML/meltax2, power sword melta bomb serg 2x rhino 1xpod
5x scouts w/Telion, camo, ML
7 TH/SS
1rifledread
2xtyphoon
2x auto las
Thunderfire
Aegis quad gun

7ML's, 2MM, 4 melta, 6heavy bolter, 8 TLAC, 4AC, 4las cannon, and thunderfire is pretty heavy firepower.

yeah i mean that seems like a solid list with good firepower. My only concern there is the general lack of AA, but otherwise seems pretty good.

isn't that what the quad gun and rifledread are for?

against 1 flyer sure maayyybe 2, but not against any more than that. It's pretty easy to pop a quad gun and not that much harder to pop a normal dread.


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Furthermore, the quad gun definitely starts going down hill against anything av12, so 2-3 vendettas or a storm raven or 2 will not really be threatened by that type of firepower.

My rifle dread sits in 3+ bolstered ruins usually,and the quad gun is 3+4++, and T7. 2 vendettasare no problem, 3+is where I get concerned. and I'm even less concerned about the ravens. Necrons are scary no matter who you are. But everything in my army gets some sort of cover/invuln. So it's usually surprisingly durable.