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nobody wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:
You'd be better dropping the Sternguard in on T1 than the pod. The strength of drop-guard is their ability to drop in and destroying a high priority (and high points) target before it gets to do anything. While you can hold off on them, you will usually get better returns on your investment if you cash in on them immediately (to illustrate, if a 5 man Sternguard squad drops in and destroys a Land Raider on turn 1 before it gets to do anything, you'll have effectively negated about 240 points of his list with significantly fewer points and still have 5 men and a pod left over, whereas if you kill that same target with the drop-guard on turn 2 or later, the tank has likely achieved something, reducing your ROI. (I did the math, and statistically speaking 5 Sternguard with combi-meltas have about a 97% chance of getting a vehicle explodes damage result against an AV 14 target if they are able to shoot at it from within 6")). So if you want to drop in a Thunderfire Cannon and Sternguard, I would suggest picking up a third drop pod for a tactical squad so you can drop the Sternguard and the Thunderfire on T1.

Although the more I think about it, aren't you just better off deploying the Thunderfire Cannon on the table without a drop pod? You are basically going to be setting the thing up in cover anyways, since it has an amazing range, so why bother with podding? If you were going all pods, I could see taking a Drop Pod on the TFC as a 'null pod' (a drop pod with nothing in it so that you can either drop or hold back an extra squad on T1), but if you are going mech I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Thank you, I had been wondering primarily in cases where an opponent reserves his heavy vehicles, but I'm not sure that's going to be a huge problem in the long run.

And yeah, the TFC would likely start on the table, the pod would just be an empty pod in case I run across an army where having the Sternguard come in first turn may not be as efficient (see also: Daemons).

The way I was thinking was like this:

Opponent starts everything on the table: Sternguard come in first turn. Null Pod lands wherever whenever it comes in.
Opponent makes heavy use of reserves: Empty Pod comes in first turn, Sternguard have a better shot of being able to drop and pop on something good.

Hypothetically, I was thinking that maybe a land raider Redeemer could be a good transport for melta sterns that want to charge into the enemy lines right away. The firestorm cannons can deal with massed infantry that are nearby(not even MEQs are safe) and a TL assault cannon can deal with any left over. Obviously the meltas can melt any tank of their choosing. If all goes as planned, and the enemy fail to kill either of them, you can ravage the enemy with the rest of your army advanced with little notice.

 ace101 wrote:

nobody wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:
You'd be better dropping the Sternguard in on T1 than the pod. The strength of drop-guard is their ability to drop in and destroying a high priority (and high points) target before it gets to do anything. While you can hold off on them, you will usually get better returns on your investment if you cash in on them immediately (to illustrate, if a 5 man Sternguard squad drops in and destroys a Land Raider on turn 1 before it gets to do anything, you'll have effectively negated about 240 points of his list with significantly fewer points and still have 5 men and a pod left over, whereas if you kill that same target with the drop-guard on turn 2 or later, the tank has likely achieved something, reducing your ROI. (I did the math, and statistically speaking 5 Sternguard with combi-meltas have about a 97% chance of getting a vehicle explodes damage result against an AV 14 target if they are able to shoot at it from within 6")). So if you want to drop in a Thunderfire Cannon and Sternguard, I would suggest picking up a third drop pod for a tactical squad so you can drop the Sternguard and the Thunderfire on T1.

Although the more I think about it, aren't you just better off deploying the Thunderfire Cannon on the table without a drop pod? You are basically going to be setting the thing up in cover anyways, since it has an amazing range, so why bother with podding? If you were going all pods, I could see taking a Drop Pod on the TFC as a 'null pod' (a drop pod with nothing in it so that you can either drop or hold back an extra squad on T1), but if you are going mech I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Thank you, I had been wondering primarily in cases where an opponent reserves his heavy vehicles, but I'm not sure that's going to be a huge problem in the long run.

And yeah, the TFC would likely start on the table, the pod would just be an empty pod in case I run across an army where having the Sternguard come in first turn may not be as efficient (see also: Daemons).

The way I was thinking was like this:

Opponent starts everything on the table: Sternguard come in first turn. Null Pod lands wherever whenever it comes in.
Opponent makes heavy use of reserves: Empty Pod comes in first turn, Sternguard have a better shot of being able to drop and pop on something good.

Hypothetically, I was thinking that maybe a land raider Redeemer could be a good transport for melta sterns that want to charge into the enemy lines right away. The firestorm cannons can deal with massed infantry that are nearby(not even MEQs are safe) and a TL assault cannon can deal with any left over. Obviously the meltas can melt any tank of their choosing. If all goes as planned, and the enemy fail to kill either of them, you can ravage the enemy with the rest of your army advanced with little notice.

Land Raiders as a delivery mechanism for sternguard, melta-sternguard in particular, suffer from several issues, particularly when compared to drop pods.
1. Cost: A LRR with a Multi-Melta is the same cost as a full 10 man Sternguard squad naked, and 50 points less than a full Sternguard squad with all combi-weapons. Basically, taking a Redeemer with Sternguard is putting a lot of eggs in one basket. An AV14 basket, but still, its something that can be taken care of by lance, haywire, gauss or melta.
2. Efficiency: The greatest advantage of melta-sternguard in a drop pod is that they wipe out whatever your opponents toughest target is instantly before it gets a chance to do something. Killing something on T1 is a hell of a lot better than killing it even on T2, because during that one turn your target has had an opportunity to do whatever it is supposed to be doing and make some of its points back. With Sternguard in a LR, you have to wait at least on turn before you can get the land raider into position so that you can drop the Sternguard off into melta range, and theres a higher chance you'll have them shooting against front armour. With them in a drop pod, you can get them in position IMMEDIATELY and against side or even rear armour.

Um yeah I'm not a huge fan of LRs (except fo rthe fact that they look awesome) because they are such big expensive targets for the relative firepower you gain.

For that one 250 point LR you could get...

A droppod for your sternguard
with 4 MM attack bikes bikes and 15 points orrr 3 MM attack bikes bikes and 1 MM/MM speeder....

etc

For droppod sternguard I wouldnt go much past 5 guys all with combi-meltas, they really are pretty much a suicide unit at that point and 5 combi meltas should be enough to kill what you need to kill.

hrm, this gets me thinking... what about dropping a 10-man sternguard unit, half with combi-meltas and the other half with combi-flamers? you get to melt whatever it is you need to melt on turn 1. you have some quality anti-charge defense. barring an unfortunate pie plate or two, your 10 man squad will either draw a lot of fire turn 1 (which is fire not going into the rest of your army) or will live long enough to rapid-fire something with special ammo.

worth the extra points or would you just be better off dropping two separate 5-man units for a few points more?

Id say 2 5 man instead, lets you pick 2 different threats and target them and seperates their fire. Instead of a 5 man with combi-flamers you could do a dread with HF/flamer on the CCW in the pod, it's a touch cheaper for a similar effect, and they REALLY dont want that getting into CC. Alternatly try a seige dread

120 points for a str 6 ap 3 template and HF template within his fist. He also ignores shaken and stunned, pretty good deal (hell you could even get him an assault pod to assault out of there).

The funny thing is I'm trying to move away from a LR for my hammernators.

As for the Sternguard situation, I'm currently looking at a 10 man combi-melta squad, which will usually combat squad upon drop.

If there's only one tank, then one combat squad will pop it, while the other shoots at troops with their special ammo (bonus points if the tank is a transport, then the second combat squad can light up whatever was inside).

If there's two tanks close enough together, I can potentially pop both at the same time.

The two unit idea could also work, my main concern would be trying to scale up the army list which could potentially include one of the ironclad dreads.

what do you think, in a fun game useing the IA siege list, of a 10 man siege assault squad in a land raider redeemer with a siege master riding with them?

IIRC, the assault squad all have combat shields, are troop choices, and have a bunch of other doodads that help them out.


aaaaaaaand people are ignoring me

Alright, I'd like to steer the discussion back to troops for scoring units. I did see a post earlier in the thread discussing a one per 500 rule. Does the ability to Combat Squad change this? IE: Can I safely go 3 troops at 1999 (technically 2000, but the tournaments here are 1999+1 to disallow multiple detachments) points if I'm planning to Combat Squad at least one squad?

I would say no, mostly because 5 marines are, as it turns out, not all that tough.


If you think about it, any AP3 or lower template will (on a hit) likely one shot them out in the open, and they will get massacred by any moderaly captable CC unit or swarms of units of 15 or more. Look at sternguard that we've been talking about! A 5 man sternguard would wipe out a 5 man tactical easy peasy with that rapid ap3 fire.


As a result, while a very useful tactic and potentially good to split your heavy weapon off to ping things and swarm objectives, it's not what I would call a solid scoring unit on its own. You want a 5 man combat squad to be no big deal if it goes away, not 1/4th your scoring power.

Thus, you still need bodies, lots and lots of meq bodies, which means I suggest not just 1 scoring unit per 500 poitns but 1 10 man tac squad per 500 poitns. So at 1999 that would be 4, and even then id probably throw in a sniper scout squad too.

Besides, although a touch overcosted (they really should be 15 each not 16), why would you skimp out on our marines? they are still good, accurate and give us cheap heavy weapons. Just dont get them in CC (or get them out as fast as you can).

Largo39 wrote:
I would say no, mostly because 5 marines are, as it turns out, not all that tough.


If you think about it, any AP3 or lower template will (on a hit) likely one shot them out in the open, and they will get massacred by any moderaly captable CC unit or swarms of units of 15 or more. Look at sternguard that we've been talking about! A 5 man sternguard would wipe out a 5 man tactical easy peasy with that rapid ap3 fire.


As a result, while a very useful tactic and potentially good to split your heavy weapon off to ping things and swarm objectives, it's not what I would call a solid scoring unit on its own. You want a 5 man combat squad to be no big deal if it goes away, not 1/4th your scoring power.

Thus, you still need bodies, lots and lots of meq bodies, which means I suggest not just 1 scoring unit per 500 poitns but 1 10 man tac squad per 500 poitns. So at 1999 that would be 4, and even then id probably throw in a sniper scout squad too.

Besides, although a touch overcosted (they really should be 15 each not 16), why would you skimp out on our marines? they are still good, accurate and give us cheap heavy weapons. Just dont get them in CC (or get them out as fast as you can).

The main concern would be filling in additional toys to handle the stuff that the normal marines cannot (FA choices that can get there faster, elites/heavy support that hit harder, etc).. Example: Tac Marines tend to be just "okay" in close combat. You need close combat specialists against many opponents, so one less Tac Squad (220 pts including rhino) can get me one more 5 man squad of TH/SS terminators, along with a cushion of points.

Or if you have a meta where aircraft show up, one less tac squad could give you a Stormtalon + a good chunk of the way to an AGL.

hey, what do you guys think is the best loadout for a tactical squad?? (wich weapons should I give them)?

ahhh well see I didnt suggest you kit your tacs out with rhinos I keep them lean and mean .

My most common builds right now

175 - MM and MG or ML and MG
190 - LC and PG (no more than 1-2 of these though)
180 - ML and PG (my default)

Honestly rhinos are.. kind of iffy. You get 12 inches of movement sure but then, they dont ususally last much longer than that though. Since those 12 inches you'd ususally want headed towards an objective.. how often do you want to move towards objectives first turn?

They are sitll pretty handy to have around and potential roadblocks, so here is what I might do at 1999 poitns if i had some points to spare (i dont default get rhinos right now). Honestly though id just as soon lose the rhinos too and use the poitns for more attack bikes and speeders.

4 x 10 man tactical squads (800 points)
2x190 - LC and PG
2x210- MM and MG with rhino.

that leaves 1200 poitns which is moooreee than enough for toys.

Secondly... mm... why exactly do you need close combat specialists? That's sort of the point of combat tactics, getting out of CC. We really dont have ANY sort of CC specialists that are any good, at least for vanilla marines. Assault marines are overcosted, and we dont get 2 cc weapons/counter attack like our wolfy brethren, or force weapons like our knights. So honestly, we're really suppose to be shooty and/or bikey.

All we really have are assault marines, which are really great at.. tarpitting something. They dont have that many attacks and they go last, so they're mostly for surviving and a defensive measure against any big scary CC units. Furthermore you also have to invest in ways to get the termies where they need to be that they're something I tend to just leave on my shelf. If I want that kind of CC id rather go with an ally.

Finally with flyers... well that's the other reason why we need lots of bodies, that lets us ignore them a lot better. Lets be real here, the stormtalon on it's own is a pretty well costed flyer. But compared to the nightscythe/vendetta/doomscythe it sucks and is WAY over costed. It only has 2 HP so there is about an even chance that it will get one shotted by a quad gun. It's not really worth the points at this point, better to have more bodies and just ignore the air entirely (or you go my route and get AA via FW and be much happier about life).

alright. And do you guys think a Vulkan list will still work?

What do we think of load outs for Land speeders? finally got three of them so wondering what load out to try first. I am tempted to go AC HB in a squadron of three (and cast prescience on them as I run BA's), although I do usually like to keep a nice firebase core in my armies so am using liking the longer range HB and typhoon ML load out, i will be magnetising the weapons though.

I already have up to 5 attack bikes with MM's so I dont really need any MM;s on my LS's

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
what do you think, in a fun game useing the IA siege list, of a 10 man siege assault squad in a land raider redeemer with a siege master riding with them?

IIRC, the assault squad all have combat shields, are troop choices, and have a bunch of other doodads that help them out.


aaaaaaaand people are ignoring me

Being ignored when you're talking about using Imperial Armor rules that have nothing to do with VANILLA marines is a good thing. The book changes the setup, tactics, objectives and abilities of the space marine army. This thread is about the more accessible C:SM and not Forge World books that not everyone has read many times or played against many times. To answer you're question: Hint I bolded why it is and is not a good idea. Have fun.

@Glenn87 - I believe Vulkan still carries a lot of weight by twin linking and a list built around that rule can do lots of harm with DP stern, dreads, or foot marines. This also means that in my area players are used to and tired of seeing Vulkan showing up so I try to field him rarely to not agitate the player base.

@ Largo39 - With so many objective based games how do you get your scoring units to the opp. objectives? Foot slogging seems like it would be easily countered by targeting tacs closest to an objective. Even with 1200 points of toys it seems a bit of a jog.

MarkyMark wrote:
What do we think of load outs for Land speeders? finally got three of them so wondering what load out to try first. I am tempted to go AC HB in a squadron of three (and cast prescience on them as I run BA's), although I do usually like to keep a nice firebase core in my armies so am using liking the longer range HB and typhoon ML load out, i will be magnetising the weapons though.

I already have up to 5 attack bikes with MM's so I dont really need any MM;s on my LS's

I like them for melta delivery, but you use bikes for that.

The typhoon/HB is a very nice one. Between the range and speed, you can add fire support to wherever it is needed on the table. And you can do it from outside bolter range, which can bring you down. The HB/HB speeder seems a poor man's option of the same tactic.

HF/HF is a flying BBQ. Fast, cheap, effective.

I love the AC as a weapon, but the speeder is a poor platform for it. You need to be within 24" to use it, and only have AV10. I'm OK suiciding a speeder to blow up a tank with a melta, but not to just blow a chunk out of an infantry squad. You are unlikely to kill it, and the return fire will do bad things to you. Plus, they are expensive. If I'm sinking that many points on a speeder, I'd rather be safely drifting around the backfield with the typhoon.

Largo39 wrote:
ahhh well see I didnt suggest you kit your tacs out with rhinos I keep them lean and mean .

My most common builds right now

175 - MM and MG or ML and MG
190 - LC and PG (no more than 1-2 of these though)
180 - ML and PG (my default)

Honestly rhinos are.. kind of iffy. You get 12 inches of movement sure but then, they dont ususally last much longer than that though. Since those 12 inches you'd ususally want headed towards an objective.. how often do you want to move towards objectives first turn?

They are sitll pretty handy to have around and potential roadblocks, so here is what I might do at 1999 poitns if i had some points to spare (i dont default get rhinos right now). Honestly though id just as soon lose the rhinos too and use the poitns for more attack bikes and speeders.

4 x 10 man tactical squads (800 points)
2x190 - LC and PG
2x210- MM and MG with rhino.

that leaves 1200 poitns which is moooreee than enough for toys.

Secondly... mm... why exactly do you need close combat specialists? That's sort of the point of combat tactics, getting out of CC. We really dont have ANY sort of CC specialists that are any good, at least for vanilla marines. Assault marines are overcosted, and we dont get 2 cc weapons/counter attack like our wolfy brethren, or force weapons like our knights. So honestly, we're really suppose to be shooty and/or bikey.

All we really have are assault marines, which are really great at.. tarpitting something. They dont have that many attacks and they go last, so they're mostly for surviving and a defensive measure against any big scary CC units. Furthermore you also have to invest in ways to get the termies where they need to be that they're something I tend to just leave on my shelf. If I want that kind of CC id rather go with an ally.

Finally with flyers... well that's the other reason why we need lots of bodies, that lets us ignore them a lot better. Lets be real here, the stormtalon on it's own is a pretty well costed flyer. But compared to the nightscythe/vendetta/doomscythe it sucks and is WAY over costed. It only has 2 HP so there is about an even chance that it will get one shotted by a quad gun. It's not really worth the points at this point, better to have more bodies and just ignore the air entirely (or you go my route and get AA via FW and be much happier about life).

Ahh, yeah, I've had my tac squads in rhinos from the first game I played with a SM army back in 3rd. As it might become obvious here...I'm working on a Vulkan list (I think I'm allowed, I played Salamanders back when their Tac Marines had I3 which was before they were cool). As such I get access to TH/SS Terminators with MC on their hammers, making them somewhat more effective.

My (current) preferred layout is sgt w/power sword, MM, flamer in barebones rhino.which sets me up at 220. This allows me to get my flamers upfield, and the pain of firing MMs with snap shots is somewhat lessened thanks to Vulkan twin-linking them. The PS are there mostly to help break them out of tarpits, I'm not expecting them to win combat in most cases.

As for the AA issue, FW is out (would take too long, and too expensive at this point), and I rather like the idea of the Stormtalon acting as a deterrent or distraction to enemy fliers. To be honest my current meta has no IG, so no Vendettas or Valks, and out of the Necron players, only one is using aircraft. I have seen a DE player bringing two of the bombers, so that could be amusing.

Also, I'll admit that I like the model

 mrwhoop wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
what do you think, in a fun game useing the IA siege list, of a 10 man siege assault squad in a land raider redeemer with a siege master riding with them?

IIRC, the assault squad all have combat shields, are troop choices, and have a bunch of other doodads that help them out.


aaaaaaaand people are ignoring me

Being ignored when you're talking about using Imperial Armor rules that have nothing to do with VANILLA marines is a good thing. The book changes the setup, tactics, objectives and abilities of the space marine army. This thread is about the more accessible C:SM and not Forge World books that not everyone has read many times or played against many times. To answer you're question: Hint I bolded why it is and is not a good idea. Have fun.

@Glenn87 - I believe Vulkan still carries a lot of weight by twin linking and a list built around that rule can do lots of harm with DP stern, dreads, or foot marines. This also means that in my area players are used to and tired of seeing Vulkan showing up so I try to field him rarely to not agitate the player base.

@ Largo39 - With so many objective based games how do you get your scoring units to the opp. objectives? Foot slogging seems like it would be easily countered by targeting tacs closest to an objective. Even with 1200 points of toys it seems a bit of a jog.

ouch, beatdown sorry about that. just thought I would ask.

Speaking of IA, does anyone suppose that the forge world flyers are better than standard SM flyers (Storm Talon, Stormraven)? I've had a good look at the Aeronautica Imperialis book, and those two seemed to be a better value to me than Storm Talon, who is really slightly less fragile than a land speeder, something that I wouldn't want in a flyer with all the AA toys that people are getting recently.

@ace101: First note that we dont actually get the storm raven, only BA/GK/SW do. Vanilla marines have the talon instead. Anyways, the FW flyers for SM are better... but not at dealing with enemy flyers. So it sorta comes down to what you need and what holes there are in your army. The Caestus assault ram is really good at getting units across the board, and similarly the storm eagle base is great at surviving fire and (with it's heavy 2 large blasts) putting the pain on infantry. But neither deal with enemy flyers well, for that you want mortis contemptor dreads and hyperios defense platforms.

@Tiger9gamer: sorry I didnt respond! I dont know anything about that seige list, so I cant really talk about it's effectivness or not

@mrwhoop: IA is absolutely up for discussion here because FW is the only route we become competitive. The tournament meta right now is crons, ig, GK and (now) CSM. Crons and IG get most of that tournament power from their air, with CSM (with those helldrakes) likely isnt far behind in relying on air for their victories. Thus no matter what we need solid and reliable AA and the only way we get that is through FW. Now for the various specific army builds in those books I dont know much about, but I'm just focusing on the 40k approved alternate leaders and AA tools we can acess to try and deal with those kinds of meta threats.

@::MarkyMark: go with typhoon speeders, dual HF speeders, or dual MM speeders. Those are the best options, and if you have attack bikes then just lost the MM speeders and go with dual HF or typhoon. MM bikes are a lot more reliable and durable, and can contest.

@nobody: soo... I dont really like powerswords on seargents. The perfect combat for marines is one they lose by exactly 1 guy. Then they break morale, fall back, and shoot the crap out of the enemy next turn. Given that there are 3 main situations we can find ourselves in with CC:

1. either we're facing a swarm of s3 or s4 enemies who are relying on number of attacks to do the job. In this case the power sword will likely not really make much difference, it may kill 1 guy (since he'll only have what, 2 attacks?) but that's about it. Not much damage to the swarm
2. We're up against 5-10 CC specialists without any critical leaders. In this case we're likely going to die. If we get to go first then that ususally means we're up against TEQ at which point it does nothing, and if we dont go firs then powersword guy will probably be dead before he can use it.
3. We're up against a CC king who can singlehandedly slaughter the squad. In this case the seargent has one role, challenge and save the rest of his squad with his sacrifice. Again here the power sword has no use and is just a waste of points.

examples of 1: termagaunts, ork boyz, etc. Examples of 2: harliequins, terminators, wraiths, etc. examples of 3: swarmlord, mephiston, abaddon, etc.

In all 3 of those scenarios the power sword didnt really do much help, and those are the most common we'll find ourselves in against the CC armies we fear most. Thus I argue you can save some points by just keeping your powersword points and use them elsewhere (hell get melta bombs instead!)

Again rhinos are decent at getting places, but think about this. In most of the objective games we control half of their locations, so no matter what we get to have 1-2 home obectives. Well the tac squads holding those certainly dont need a rhino, and that ususally means we only need one more objective to secure victory. so I send 1-2 tacticals after it with all my mobile elements and they should be able to make it there. If the enemy has the firepower to wipe that all out then rhinos wouldnt have made much difference anyways.. They're still useful for late objective grabbing... if they survive that long.

the only main mission where we dont control half the objectives is relic.. and a rhino doesnt help here anyways since you HAVE to footslog that sucker (6 inch movement max) And they hurt us in VP missions too....

For those asking about Vulkan yeah he's great, as long as you have your AA covered and arnt worried/dont need pyschic powers then ur great.

Things to get:
5 TH/SS termis
MM attack bikes,
HF speeders,
droppodded flamer dreads,
drop podded combi-melta sternguard,
3 MM/MG tactical squads

should set you up well.

I like the talon model too, I just dont like his stats compared to the meta flyers So if your meta doesnt have many enemy flyers I honestly wouldnt use the talon either... he's a decent harasser but there are better things to get.

Largo39 wrote:
@ace101: First note that we dont actually get the storm raven, only BA/GK/SW do.

Since when did SW get Storm Ravens?

Largo39 wrote:
@nobody: soo... I dont really like powerswords on seargents. The perfect combat for marines is one they lose by exactly 1 guy. Then they break morale, fall back, and shoot the crap out of the enemy next turn. Given that there are 3 main situations we can find ourselves in with CC:

1. either we're facing a swarm of s3 or s4 enemies who are relying on number of attacks to do the job. In this case the power sword will likely not really make much difference, it may kill 1 guy (since he'll only have what, 2 attacks?) but that's about it. Not much damage to the swarm
2. We're up against 5-10 CC specialists without any critical leaders. In this case we're likely going to die. If we get to go first then that ususally means we're up against TEQ at which point it does nothing, and if we dont go firs then powersword guy will probably be dead before he can use it.
3. We're up against a CC king who can singlehandedly slaughter the squad. In this case the seargent has one role, challenge and save the rest of his squad with his sacrifice. Again here the power sword has no use and is just a waste of points.

examples of 1: termagaunts, ork boyz, etc. Examples of 2: harliequins, terminators, wraiths, etc. examples of 3: swarmlord, mephiston, abaddon, etc.

In all 3 of those scenarios the power sword didnt really do much help, and those are the most common we'll find ourselves in against the CC armies we fear most. Thus I argue you can save some points by just keeping your powersword points and use them elsewhere (hell get melta bombs instead!)

your reasoning for not bothering with power weapons/fists on the sergeant makes sense, but what about a combi-flamer? worth the extra points for D3 free wounds against the first thing that charges you?

@smUrfsrUs: umm.. actually yeah i think ur right, that was a mistype, just BA and GK. SW just have... all the other shiny things (siigh longfangs and counter attack, and stupid cc weapon/pistol/bolter, grrrr).

@varl: a combi flamer would be a great choice... if it were 5 points instead of 10. Because it's 10 it's not something id bother with TBH, at that point id rather have a HK missile annnd those arnt ususally point effective. I leave my seargents skinny and cheap but the best upgrade ive seen for them is melta-bombs, as it lets you deal with 2 specific threats that you'd otherwise have trouble with even backing away from and shooting: MCs and Heavier all-around tanks (for lighter tanks krak can get through just fine). So they're a decent investment and only 5 points to boot, but for me i still just go with naked seargents, but then I really dont have ANY points to spare with my list.

I need help building the last 3 Devastators I have. I already have built the 2 Lascannons, so, I'll list what I already have in my army and see what you guys think (for the Heavy Weapons, not necessarily fielding them in a Devastator Squad):

I have:

4 Missile Launchers
3 Plasma Cannons
2 Lascannons
1 Heavy Bolter
0 Multi-Meltas

Now, I could build the Multi Melta, but other than making a melta bunker to keep tanks the hell away, I don't see what the point is (Considering I already run 2 Vindicators and 8 Missile Launchers in my 1500 List to deal with tanks that get close, such as Dreads). However, Heavy Bolters are dumb on Tactical Squads due to the fact that you also get the amazing Missile Launcher and the almost as amazing Multi-Melta for free too.

And, I already have 3 Plasma Cannons...

I guess I could build the Missile Launcher / Multi Melta, just so if I field a Missile Launcher devie squad I can field a ML somewhere else too.

Or I could use them as count-as allied Space Wolf Long Fangs!

Ummmm, well, id get some more bodies and just put it all there TBH.

2 man cannons should be enough, but yeah ur going to want 1 MM marine, 1 PC marine and 3-4 ML marines for the various builds to try. You could also try magnetizing but yeah good luck with that, those are some smalllll arms to do it in.

Agreed I have 2 of each MM/PC/LC, and 6ML's haha. And I've been thinking of adding a 3rd of each MM/PC/LC. And possibly 4 more ML's if I decide to do a space wolves heresy army.

Crazyterran wrote:I need help building the last 3 Devastators I have. I already have built the 2 Lascannons, so, I'll list what I already have in my army and see what you guys think (for the Heavy Weapons, not necessarily fielding them in a Devastator Squad):

I have:

4 Missile Launchers
3 Plasma Cannons
2 Lascannons
1 Heavy Bolter
0 Multi-Meltas

Now, I could build the Multi Melta, but other than making a melta bunker to keep tanks the hell away, I don't see what the point is (Considering I already run 2 Vindicators and 8 Missile Launchers in my 1500 List to deal with tanks that get close, such as Dreads). However, Heavy Bolters are dumb on Tactical Squads due to the fact that you also get the amazing Missile Launcher and the almost as amazing Multi-Melta for free too.

And, I already have 3 Plasma Cannons...

I guess I could build the Missile Launcher / Multi Melta, just so if I field a Missile Launcher devie squad I can field a ML somewhere else too.

Or I could use them as count-as allied Space Wolf Long Fangs!

Largo39 wrote:Ummmm, well, id get some more bodies and just put it all there TBH.

2 man cannons should be enough, but yeah ur going to want 1 MM marine, 1 PC marine and 3-4 ML marines for the various builds to try. You could also try magnetizing but yeah good luck with that, those are some smalllll arms to do it in.

Buy an extra tac box and build them all is the best, long term answer. Having the gear to make whatever army you want is a very nice feeling.

I'd build the MM, HB, and ML first.
Multi-meltas are nice in tac squads. Just the threat of one on the table will impact the battle. MM/M in a rhino is one of my basic tac squads.

I like HBs. They work OK in tac squads you plan on moving around a lot. I'd rather snap fire 3 HB shots along with the squad then try to hit with a single krack missile. I also like 2xHB, 2xML in a dev squad for anti-infantry jobs. Having a second one built would be nice.

MLs are good solid heavy weapons, hard to go wrong making more. I could see a lot of lists where you would want more then the 4 your have.

Typically I run my MLs on typhoon speeders and my contemptor.

Typically the Heavy Weapon part of the Tactical Squad isn't going to move unless they have nothing to shoot. If it's a Kill Point game, typically they aren't going to move unless there is something close enough to charge! (Or i'm playing Tau or something similiar.) So, generally, Heavy Bolters lack behind, especially when I get a set of them on my Typhoon speeders.

Definitely going to build the MM. I already have 3 PCs, so I might build one of them, too, to give me a 4 PC option in the future, if they drop the price cost in a future codex.

Then I'll build a Missile Launcher or the Sergeant, and save the other sprues/bits for when I get more legs / bodies.

Now... just need the motivation to actually build the guys.

New question ( not about forgeworld) which psychic table is the best for a shooty army?

I've enjoyed telepathy for Puppet master to get more shooting or invisibility for when the enemy closes to assault the gunline.

@Largo39



Unfortunately I don't see TOs allowing IA in any great numbers. In my area there's a push to allow some and I read online that others feel FW is getting more balanced but this thread is general tips. You yourself say you don't know about specific builds and that is what the question was about.