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 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
Regarding the fear of instant death, taking the mark of Nurgle tends to deal with that problem.
Naturally, still be careful around force weapons.

Demon Princes no longer get marks. All dedication to nurgle gives him is "shrouded". So look out for those S:10 shots that ignore cover.

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
Regarding the fear of instant death, taking the mark of Nurgle tends to deal with that problem.
Naturally, still be careful around force weapons.

How does shrouded prevent instant death. Nurgle DP's don't get +1 toughness

I think you just keep one around for the boon table, but that's about it.

Oh yeah. Oops. I was looking at the marks on page 30.
I had forgotten that it is different for princes.
Thanks for the reminder. I'm glad I learned that before my next game. My list was going to revolve around my princes.
Perhaps some tweaking is in order...

I do think that Daemon Princes are pretty expensive, but I reckon people are selling them short a bit.

They are a big badass HQ unit, those types of units are often quite costly and they should be.

There's just no way to get out of the vulnerability to S10, vs the cost... except for getting iron arm which is very chancy. They are fun and still marginally usable, but I think this is just one of those units that as soon as the codex came out, people know that it's not going to factor in many competitive lists now. Sure put crazy pyschic powers and the black mace on there, it just makes it all that more of a points sink when he goes down.

I can count on one hand the number of times I have had S10 weapons of any kind fired at my DPs, do you know what has killed them every single time? Massed weapon fire or missile launchers, because there are plenty of them and they ignore the power armour. Now true, unless you have Iron Arm you are vulnerable to S10 weapons, though MCs can much easier get cover saves, improved by shrouding, or invulnerable save.

Which means that DPs are still going to die from massed fire, what would you use to kill him, lots of cheap weapons, or risking wasting one S10 shot that might not even do anything, or use that one shot to blow up a tank.

Zoanthropes only have a 24" (including movement) S10 weapon, which the DP will get an additional 4+ deny the witch roll for being a high mastery level and then a 3+ cover save, I wouldn't be too worried about them.

Is everyone also thinking that these things happen in a vacuum suddenly? DP meet railgun, railgun meet lascannons, krak missiles, autocannons, whatever whilst the DP gets out of line of sight for a turn, or flies in out of reserves as a FMC. And there is also the bonus that a lot of S10 weapons are blasts (and ignore cover) which can't hit FMCs

The reason I might not take a DP is because of his cost, not because he might suddenly be insta-killed, but because Id think about how much he might actually manage to kill during the game, he's only one model.

One build I wanted to try is Prince of Tzeentch, Wings, Power Armor, Mace, PML 3, Gift of Mutation. Roll twice on Tzeenrch Powers and Once on Biomancy. Hope to get Boon of Mutation. Then cast it on the prince. Yeah, you could turn into a spawn (Not sure if you can turn into another Prince or not.) but you can get some good buffs.

 lord_bobbington wrote:


The reason I might not take a DP is because of his cost, not because he might suddenly be insta-killed, but because Id think about how much he might actually manage to kill during the game, he's only one model.

Cost is the only thing that might keep me from fielding a DP. I have a very hard time paying more than 200 points for a single model. The only exception is the Landraider because thats the only way it comes.

I don't fear the S10 or forceweapon hit. Because in the one game where one does show up and insta-gib the guy, there will be 6 games where the DP it goes around and wrecks face.

I agree that massed firepower is the biggest killer of the DP. Its really not hard to fail a 3+ save 3 - 4 times.

Shrouded gives the Nurgle DP a 3+ save in cover against most things, but on a T5 single model, that is not going to help against focused fire.

I tried running a 250-point Prince (armor, wings, nurgle, 1 level of psyker) just yesterday for two games. Against Salamanders he took 2 wounds in a single round of overwatch charging tacticals, then took flight and took a wound and a nosedive after a hit from a twin-linked assault cannon that finished him off. My previous-edition princes often died early too, but never from so little firepower and/or after killing so little.

That said, my main annoyance with the army so far has been all the mandatory challenges. They slow things down and make you either waste your big hitters killing naked sargeants (and then losing the fight because you really needed Kharn or that Skull champion kicking ass), or feed your sargeants to enemy HQs.

 lord_bobbington wrote:
I can count on one hand the number of times I have had S10 weapons of any kind fired at my DPs, do you know what has killed them every single time? Massed weapon fire or missile launchers, because there are plenty of them and they ignore the power armour. Now true, unless you have Iron Arm you are vulnerable to S10 weapons, though MCs can much easier get cover saves, improved by shrouding, or invulnerable save.

Which means that DPs are still going to die from massed fire, what would you use to kill him, lots of cheap weapons, or risking wasting one S10 shot that might not even do anything, or use that one shot to blow up a tank.

Zoanthropes only have a 24" (including movement) S10 weapon, which the DP will get an additional 4+ deny the witch roll for being a high mastery level and then a 3+ cover save, I wouldn't be too worried about them.

Is everyone also thinking that these things happen in a vacuum suddenly? DP meet railgun, railgun meet lascannons, krak missiles, autocannons, whatever whilst the DP gets out of line of sight for a turn, or flies in out of reserves as a FMC. And there is also the bonus that a lot of S10 weapons are blasts (and ignore cover) which can't hit FMCs

The reason I might not take a DP is because of his cost, not because he might suddenly be insta-killed, but because Id think about how much he might actually manage to kill during the game, he's only one model.

So you shoot 20 pea shooters at the FMC, ground him, then hit him in the face with the rail gun.

I miss my old DP

Kevlar wrote:

 lord_bobbington wrote:
I can count on one hand the number of times I have had S10 weapons of any kind fired at my DPs, do you know what has killed them every single time? Massed weapon fire or missile launchers, because there are plenty of them and they ignore the power armour. Now true, unless you have Iron Arm you are vulnerable to S10 weapons, though MCs can much easier get cover saves, improved by shrouding, or invulnerable save.

Which means that DPs are still going to die from massed fire, what would you use to kill him, lots of cheap weapons, or risking wasting one S10 shot that might not even do anything, or use that one shot to blow up a tank.

Zoanthropes only have a 24" (including movement) S10 weapon, which the DP will get an additional 4+ deny the witch roll for being a high mastery level and then a 3+ cover save, I wouldn't be too worried about them.

Is everyone also thinking that these things happen in a vacuum suddenly? DP meet railgun, railgun meet lascannons, krak missiles, autocannons, whatever whilst the DP gets out of line of sight for a turn, or flies in out of reserves as a FMC. And there is also the bonus that a lot of S10 weapons are blasts (and ignore cover) which can't hit FMCs

The reason I might not take a DP is because of his cost, not because he might suddenly be insta-killed, but because Id think about how much he might actually manage to kill during the game, he's only one model.

So you shoot 20 pea shooters at the FMC, ground him, then hit him in the face with the rail gun.

Ok someones on the same page as me

EricBasser wrote:
One build I wanted to try is Prince of Tzeentch, Wings, Power Armor, Mace, PML 3, Gift of Mutation. Roll twice on Tzeenrch Powers and Once on Biomancy. Hope to get Boon of Mutation. Then cast it on the prince. Yeah, you could turn into a spawn (Not sure if you can turn into another Prince or not.) but you can get some good buffs.

yeah but how many points? 355 assuming you get a dark aura as well. That is just obscene.

What am I missing about Dark Aura and a Daemon Prince? Doesn't a Daemon Prince have the daemon rule? And thus a 5++ save. Dark Aura is just a 5++ save too, right?

I know the daemon prince I listed costs a lot, but I believe with the right powers, he'll be a tank. Iron Arm, Life Leech, and Boon of Mutation would be my dream power set.

Good powers could make him better, but he's overpriced for what you get. My old Lash prince was 155 with the same durability, except he had Eternal Warrior. And those guys still died faster than I'd like.

EricBasser wrote:
What am I missing about Dark Aura and a Daemon Prince? Doesn't a Daemon Prince have the daemon rule? And thus a 5++ save. Dark Aura is just a 5++ save too, right?

I know the daemon prince I listed costs a lot, but I believe with the right powers, he'll be a tank. Iron Arm, Life Leech, and Boon of Mutation would be my dream power set.

Yeah i didn't catch that, he does have a 5++ still. guess I am just thinking I need to pay for everything now.

Even if you are lucky to get iron arm, it's still not gg. you can still roll a 1-2 and just get +1 toughness. If you hit him with plasma guns or lascannons he still will go down just as easily, not to mention the S10 weapons. I tried it too and I'm still not impressed, but then again I played against tau will broadsides and an allied runes of warding...

 Jihallah wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

 lord_bobbington wrote:
I can count on one hand the number of times I have had S10 weapons of any kind fired at my DPs, do you know what has killed them every single time? Massed weapon fire or missile launchers, because there are plenty of them and they ignore the power armour. Now true, unless you have Iron Arm you are vulnerable to S10 weapons, though MCs can much easier get cover saves, improved by shrouding, or invulnerable save.

Which means that DPs are still going to die from massed fire, what would you use to kill him, lots of cheap weapons, or risking wasting one S10 shot that might not even do anything, or use that one shot to blow up a tank.

Zoanthropes only have a 24" (including movement) S10 weapon, which the DP will get an additional 4+ deny the witch roll for being a high mastery level and then a 3+ cover save, I wouldn't be too worried about them.

Is everyone also thinking that these things happen in a vacuum suddenly? DP meet railgun, railgun meet lascannons, krak missiles, autocannons, whatever whilst the DP gets out of line of sight for a turn, or flies in out of reserves as a FMC. And there is also the bonus that a lot of S10 weapons are blasts (and ignore cover) which can't hit FMCs

The reason I might not take a DP is because of his cost, not because he might suddenly be insta-killed, but because Id think about how much he might actually manage to kill during the game, he's only one model.

So you shoot 20 pea shooters at the FMC, ground him, then hit him in the face with the rail gun.

Ok someones on the same page as me

QFT. Seriously, it's not hard to ground a FMC, deepstrike one in your opponent's backfield in swoop mode and each squad that fires will get at least 1 hit, meaning 3 squads, 3 grounded checks ... for a pretty guaranteed wound, followed by some Heavy focused firepower coming your way. Players have been trained by previous editions ... they know certain scary looking models must go down.

They feel way too expensive with wings, by the time you get that you might as well get an allied GD.
How about keeping him cheap with just MoS and power armor? Come out to like 175 and moves reasonably fast with D6+3 run move and fleet.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 lord_bobbington wrote:


The reason I might not take a DP is because of his cost, not because he might suddenly be insta-killed, but because Id think about how much he might actually manage to kill during the game, he's only one model.

Cost is the only thing that might keep me from fielding a DP. I have a very hard time paying more than 200 points for a single model. The only exception is the Landraider because thats the only way it comes.

I don't fear the S10 or forceweapon hit. Because in the one game where one does show up and insta-gib the guy, there will be 6 games where the DP it goes around and wrecks face.

I agree that massed firepower is the biggest killer of the DP. Its really not hard to fail a 3+ save 3 - 4 times.

Thank you to the one person who actually read my posts and paid attention to the whole thing rather than just saying that downing FMCs isn't hard....which was exactly my point, It isn't the one shot S10 weapon that you're going to use to kill him, its the million pea shooters that you're going to use to kill it.

My point was, I don't care about the one S10 weapon that will be gone before it gets near the DP, it will die as it always has, to massed fire, which you all kindly proved whilst trying to prove me wrong

You don't take the DP because of the cost for a single model, not because you're afraid it might be instant killed by a rare weapon by someone with tunnel vision and has seemingly tailored a list just to kill one of your models

Are you forgetting strategy (other then the drop pod guy), Ruins are 4+ shrouded brings it to 2+...

As far as a FMC... keep him out of sight, then pounce as a reactionary force.

In CC he will kill any squad out there alone. 5+d6+1 (charge)+2 (combat familiar, ap2??), st 6+ ap 2 attacks that don't give armor saves and if you have more then one wound cause a To death or die... re-rolling hits (hatred SM), only thing that has a chance is MSS from Necrons.

Or wait until the mass firepower is dead, then move out. (Heldrakes should clear a good amount (at least that has los to where he will move) on the 2nd turn.

Any army that needs to come to you, just dead unless they get crazy luck overwatch, even then charge with cultists first or something else that doesn't matter and won't die because the DP will clean up first.

I expect to see more S10 weapons in the game. Necrons have the Flyer of Doom, vindicators are popular, there's CC, there's Tau and tau allies which are more popular now. So there's that, but yes I'd agree... the major weakness of the DP is the combination of the grounding tests being so easy to fail and needing to be close to the enemy to be useful. If you keep him in the corner, or reserve or behind some ruins then for the most part, you have 300 pts of doing nothing. It's much better to take one of the named characters in a squad, or a lord on a mount, for counter-attack duties, and it's much better to take flyers to harass the far side of the board, if you need something to clear out squads of hvy weapon infantry in the back field.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Good powers could make him better, but he's overpriced for what you get. My old Lash prince was 155 with the same durability, except he had Eternal Warrior. And those guys still died faster than I'd like.

Here is the thing. They were undercosted in the last codex. 155 points for a FMC with a psychic power? There is a reason that at BFS you saw so many people taking them -- they were as undercosted as vendettas are today.

DPs are much more in line with that they should be costed now IMHO. Their still good, just no longer 'auto take'. You might say that of the entire CSM codex now.

Should be a little cheaper and end up like the Avatar in the Elar codex where you want to take it but you need the chaos lord and troops and want the sorc or a second lord for more troops, leaving him to more themed armies.

5th ed Daemon Prince, MoN, Wings = 150
6th ed Daemon Prince, MoN, Wings = 220

Ouch...stat increases are kinda meh for 70 points.

In general I think the DP will likely still see use. I've got a sideboard tournament this weekend so I'm going to build a primary force and leave out just enough points to play with my second HQ. This is what I'm looking at:

DP of Nurgle: Black Mace, Wings, Combat Familiar - 260pts

It's generally going to be running a 3++ outside of combat. In combat it'll be rocking on the charge 6 St6 AP2 attacks, possibly 2-6 more St6 AP2, and 2 St4 AP2 attacks. And remember he has VotlW as well as wounding anything on a 2+ due to fleshbane.

@Sanctjud

Not a fair comparison. You'd have to compare on the 5th edition models rules vs. 6th edition.

In 5th Edition you had as a bonus: Eternal Warrior, T6
In 6th Edition you have: FMC Rules, Shrouding, Stat Bonus

70pts isn't such a massive bump for those differences. It's down to playstyle.

I think he was referring to 6th ed rules with 4th ed codex.

so status bonus and shrouding vs T6 and eternal warrior.

when comparing to jump pack i agree but that the same time, flying puts you out in the open often and you cannot assault the same turn. With a CC DP i would prefer 70 points cheaper and to be treated as a JMC.

 Hulksmash wrote:


@Sanctjud
Not a fair comparison. You'd have to compare on the 5th edition models rules vs. 6th edition.
It's down to playstyle.

Yea, you are correct. My play style did involve 2 Princes with wings in 5th ed for 260 points :3
I did mean what jegsar said though, but still unfair, primarily because what's in the past is in the past T.T

I'd say it was still unfair as the rules for CSM DP's have FMC rules were for less than a month before the codex came out. So it's not really a fair comparison.

Oh, and the current DP I put up would probably eat two 130pt dp's Maybe even fighting them at the same time since odds are pretty good only one will survive to hit back

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'd say it was still unfair as the rules for CSM DP's have FMC rules were for less than a month before the codex came out. So it's not really a fair comparison.

Oh, and the current DP I put up would probably eat two 130pt dp's Maybe even fighting them at the same time since odds are pretty good only one will survive to hit back

Well, it had more to do with fitting all the models I wanted to in my lists... I love my Daemon Prince models and can't bare to use one without the other... so both will likely have to sit out for while. T.T