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I hope he wasn't going first....

Boneblade wrote:Under current RAW he cannot even join a squad with a Mark. (Read the Marks of Chaos section carefully).

Actually you are the one that needs to go read that section carefully. The rule says a character cannot join a squad with a different mark, not a squad cannot be joined by a character with a different mark. There is a difference, and this is where people (not just you) are making the mistake. By RAW he can join any unit. Essentially the logical sequence is 'what mark does Abby have?', followed by 'does the squad he wants to join have that mark?', rather than 'what mark does this squad have?', followed by 'does the character trying to join have a different mark?'

Boneblade wrote:I'll typically only lose to ubercheese like Swarmstar or multiple vindicare.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk this up to a mistake, assuming you meant to say 'he will lose' rather than speaking in the first person. As for multiple Vindicare, there's no such thing.

Boneblade wrote:T5 blitz are nice and I expect them to gain fearless, which will make them incredibly good.

No offense, but I love when people 'expect' things to happen that they just happen to want. Fearless was taken off Oblits for a very good reason, and they aren't going to FAQ it back on just because people want them to have it. Moving past the denial stage is good for people.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Boneblade wrote:Under current RAW he cannot even join a squad with a Mark. (Read the Marks of Chaos section carefully).

Actually you are the one that needs to go read that section carefully. The rule says a character cannot join a squad with a different mark, not a squad cannot be joined by a character with a different mark. There is a difference, and this is where people (not just you) are making the mistake. By RAW he can join any unit. Essentially the logical sequence is 'what mark does Abby have?', followed by 'does the squad he wants to join have that mark?', rather than 'what mark does this squad have?', followed by 'does the character trying to join have a different mark?'

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." Page 30.
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. Those Berserkers have a Mark of Khorne. Abby can't join them. It doesn't matter that Abby also has a Mark of Khorne - his different Mark prevents him from joining the unit.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Boneblade wrote:T5 blitz are nice and I expect them to gain fearless, which will make them incredibly good.

No offense, but I love when people 'expect' things to happen that they just happen to want. Fearless was taken off Oblits for a very good reason, and they aren't going to FAQ it back on just because people want them to have it. Moving past the denial stage is good for people.

yes the lost fearless for a reason. why mutilators dont have it is kind of wierd though. They are pretty useless, def not worth an elite slot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:
I played a game against night lords yesterday, he infiltrated untis of raptors with flamers and meltas, and jumped at me turn 1 in a nasty alpha strike.

I'd say they were pretttyyyy good

infiltrating units cannot assault first turn unless they go second.

Brothererekose wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Forgefiend with 2 hades and a ectoplasma cannon is just a sick amount of str.8. Put behind a defense line and it is nigh impossible to kill.

However, being a vehicle, it's only getting a 5+ Cover, right?

Who cares about cover? They get a 5+ invul save =)

As much as we "want" stuff, I doubt they will be Errata-ing rules such as Fearless for Oblits in the first CSM faq.

They aren't that quick to admit they made a mistake. Maybe two years down the road.

I dunno... Look Out, Sir! Was errataed pretty quick, as were paladins and nobs.

True. Here's hoping that they will iron out the faq quickly..

 Exergy wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Boneblade wrote:T5 blitz are nice and I expect them to gain fearless, which will make them incredibly good.

No offense, but I love when people 'expect' things to happen that they just happen to want. Fearless was taken off Oblits for a very good reason, and they aren't going to FAQ it back on just because people want them to have it. Moving past the denial stage is good for people.

yes the lost fearless for a reason. why mutilators dont have it is kind of wierd though. They are pretty useless, def not worth an elite slot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:
I played a game against night lords yesterday, he infiltrated untis of raptors with flamers and meltas, and jumped at me turn 1 in a nasty alpha strike.

I'd say they were pretttyyyy good

infiltrating units cannot assault first turn unless they go second.

Oh i know, he managed to down a whole squad of warriors between two flamers and the brand of skalathrax, and then used meltaguns to pop a vehicle before it could move to get a jink save, he went first.
Honestly, they worked very well in melee as well later on

rigeld2 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Boneblade wrote:Under current RAW he cannot even join a squad with a Mark. (Read the Marks of Chaos section carefully).

Actually you are the one that needs to go read that section carefully. The rule says a character cannot join a squad with a different mark, not a squad cannot be joined by a character with a different mark. There is a difference, and this is where people (not just you) are making the mistake. By RAW he can join any unit. Essentially the logical sequence is 'what mark does Abby have?', followed by 'does the squad he wants to join have that mark?', rather than 'what mark does this squad have?', followed by 'does the character trying to join have a different mark?'

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." Page 30.
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. Those Berserkers have a Mark of Khorne. Abby can't join them. It doesn't matter that Abby also has a Mark of Khorne - his different Mark prevents him from joining the unit.

Read my post again; it's handy to read posts before replying to them you know.

Let me summarise; you're wrong. And you've even quoted the rule that says you are wrong. Read it again, read my post for the first time, and think on it for awhile.

And even the example you gave says Abby has a different mark to Berserkers, not that the Berserkers have a different mark to Abby, and that's the difference; not both have to be true at the same time. The prerequisite is for the Berserkers to have the different mark, not Abby.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Boneblade wrote:Under current RAW he cannot even join a squad with a Mark. (Read the Marks of Chaos section carefully).

Actually you are the one that needs to go read that section carefully. The rule says a character cannot join a squad with a different mark, not a squad cannot be joined by a character with a different mark. There is a difference, and this is where people (not just you) are making the mistake. By RAW he can join any unit. Essentially the logical sequence is 'what mark does Abby have?', followed by 'does the squad he wants to join have that mark?', rather than 'what mark does this squad have?', followed by 'does the character trying to join have a different mark?'

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." Page 30.
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. Those Berserkers have a Mark of Khorne. Abby can't join them. It doesn't matter that Abby also has a Mark of Khorne - his different Mark prevents him from joining the unit.

Read my post again; it's handy to read posts before replying to them you know.

Let me summarise; you're wrong. And you've even quoted the rule that says you are wrong. Read it again, read my post for the first time, and think on it for awhile.

And even the example you gave says Abby has a different mark to Berserkers, not that the Berserkers have a different mark to Abby, and that's the difference; not both have to be true at the same time. The prerequisite is for the Berserkers to have the different mark, not Abby.

An IC with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark.
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. He may not join a unit if it has any Mark besides a Mark of Nurgle.
Do the Berserkers have a Mark of Nurgle?

It's not "do they have the same Mark" as you're asserting, rather the rule is "they must not have different Marks".

Some Noise Marines with an allied Herald of Nurgle is pretty cheesy. The guy makes everyone slow and purposeful so they can move and fire their salvo at full range. The chaos daemons say they can't be with other daemons of the same god, but there's no mention of CSM/Marks. And CSM ICs can't go with units with opposite marks, but none of the Daemon units have marks.

 sehguhdier wrote:
Some Noise Marines with an allied Herald of Nurgle is pretty cheesy. The guy makes everyone slow and purposeful so they can move and fire their salvo at full range. The chaos daemons say they can't be with other daemons of the same god, but there's no mention of CSM/Marks. And CSM ICs can't go with units with opposite marks, but none of the Daemon units have marks.

Except they FAQ'ed that Daemon IC's can't join CSM units and vice versa.

One thing I must admit (and have said many times) is that Iron Warriors are pretty powerful at 2k.

Probably the shootiest army in 40k with it's 6 HS slots.

2 Vindicators.
2 x 3 Obliterators.
2 Forge Fiends.

Thats a ton of firepower that not many other armies can withstand.

Puscifer wrote:
One thing I must admit (and have said many times) is that Iron Warriors are pretty powerful at 2k.

Probably the shootiest army in 40k with it's 6 HS slots.

2 Vindicators.
2 x 3 Obliterators.
2 Forge Fiends.

Thats a ton of firepower that not many other armies can withstand.

Not even close to the shootiest army in 40k, i.e. Imperial Guard.

What's the possibility of maxing Missile and Havoc Launchers

the best that I can think of it taking Abby and 6 squads of 5 chosen each with 1 missile launcher and each in a rhino with a havoc. Then filling all 3 Heavy slots with havocs with missile launchers (probably flakk upgrades too) in rhino's with havoc launchers. Not sure about helbrutes with launchers or termies in rhinos

that would be 18 Missile Launchers and 9 havoc launchers at the very least, meaning you should be able to take on anything...emphasis on the "should be"


The other lolzy thing that I believe is worth mentioning, not sure if it's cheese or not. No one seems to have brought it up is the Dimension Key. The possibility of taking a chaos lord on a steed of slaneesh with a dimension key and possibly shutting down an entire flank with a 12" dangerous terrain would be pretty funny. (2v2 tourney battles taking 2 of them?)
Along with this, then being able to deepstrike Termies, Oblits, Warp Talons and Raptors where ever you need them for the rest of the game seems a bit cheese as you'd be able to at least double melta any vehicle you choose or flame any camping units on an objective.

A couple of downsides:
getting your lord into combat might be a serious pain. Also with the codex being rather balanced, you can only accurately deepstrike units from the CSM codex and not your daemon allies :( and with the majority of your points going into deepstrike units you'll probably need to take cultists.


Finally something that I'm not sure about but someone mentioned this in a different thread. What's the possibility of the Daemon prince taking a combat familiar and that creature also generating AP 2 attacks?

No idea. But i have been toying with 2 autocannon 2 lascannon havocs and two extra guys for ablative wounds on a quad gun. Lascannons are not badly priced as long as you can cheaply keep them safe.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Boneblade wrote:Under current RAW he cannot even join a squad with a Mark. (Read the Marks of Chaos section carefully).

Actually you are the one that needs to go read that section carefully. The rule says a character cannot join a squad with a different mark, not a squad cannot be joined by a character with a different mark. There is a difference, and this is where people (not just you) are making the mistake. By RAW he can join any unit. Essentially the logical sequence is 'what mark does Abby have?', followed by 'does the squad he wants to join have that mark?', rather than 'what mark does this squad have?', followed by 'does the character trying to join have a different mark?'

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." Page 30.
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. Those Berserkers have a Mark of Khorne. Abby can't join them. It doesn't matter that Abby also has a Mark of Khorne - his different Mark prevents him from joining the unit.

Read my post again; it's handy to read posts before replying to them you know.

Let me summarise; you're wrong. And you've even quoted the rule that says you are wrong. Read it again, read my post for the first time, and think on it for awhile.

And even the example you gave says Abby has a different mark to Berserkers, not that the Berserkers have a different mark to Abby, and that's the difference; not both have to be true at the same time. The prerequisite is for the Berserkers to have the different mark, not Abby.

An IC with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark.
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. He may not join a unit if it has any Mark besides a Mark of Nurgle.
Do the Berserkers have a Mark of Nurgle?

It's not "do they have the same Mark" as you're asserting, rather the rule is "they must not have different Marks".

This is how I would justify it: Technically, Abby doesn't have ANY marks. He has a special rule that ACTS like all the other marks. Therefore, he does not have a different mark from the unit he's joining. Sure, it has holes but most of the other people in my play group agree that it is an OK workaround until they FAQ it.

No, actually - page 57 of the C:CSM says he has all 4 Marks.

Right, but they don't actually list every mark in his profile. It is his special rule that essentially gives an equivalent of each mark. It's a technicality, for sure, but I am pretty sure that RAI, we can agree, they didn't intend him to not be able to join marked units.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 sehguhdier wrote:
Some Noise Marines with an allied Herald of Nurgle is pretty cheesy. The guy makes everyone slow and purposeful so they can move and fire their salvo at full range. The chaos daemons say they can't be with other daemons of the same god, but there's no mention of CSM/Marks. And CSM ICs can't go with units with opposite marks, but none of the Daemon units have marks.

Except they FAQ'ed that Daemon IC's can't join CSM units and vice versa.

I totally missed that- thanks!

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Right, but they don't actually list every mark in his profile. It is his special rule that essentially gives an equivalent of each mark. It's a technicality, for sure, but I am pretty sure that RAI, we can agree, they didn't intend him to not be able to join marked units.

Page 57 doesn't say it's an equivalent - it says he has every Mark.
And I don't know what they intended.

You really think the Chaos Lord of an Undivided legion really can't join marked units? That is clearly not how they intended it. I may not know that for sure, but it isn't exactly a large leap of logic.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
You really think the Chaos Lord of an Undivided legion really can't join marked units? That is clearly not how they intended it. I may not know that for sure, but it isn't exactly a large leap of logic.

By the rules, no he can't.
I don't know their intent. You're right, it's possible they intended Abby to be able to join Marked units, but its also possible they intended for him not to. Just like they might have intended for Oblits to be Fearless.

rigeld2 wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
You really think the Chaos Lord of an Undivided legion really can't join marked units? That is clearly not how they intended it. I may not know that for sure, but it isn't exactly a large leap of logic.

By the rules, no he can't.
I don't know their intent. You're right, it's possible they intended Abby to be able to join Marked units, but its also possible they intended for him not to. Just like they might have intended for Oblits to be Fearless.

If they intended Obliterators to be Fearless, then they would have given them Fearless. If they had intended for Abby not to be able to join units, they would have done so, and any amount of bellyaching otherwise doesn't mean he can't. Plain english and logical progression says he can. I understand the mix up, but it really shouldn't be that hard to understand when it is laid plain on front of you.

If you understand but still disagree for whatever reason you'v chosen, then whatever, but good luck finding Chaos opponent's to play and agree on that. Either way, I'm sick of arguing this, especially in tread that has nothing to do with this. So I'm out, I suggest you do the same.

So if someone were to field a chaos list against you and they had abaddon in a unit of cult marines what would you do? Cry and pack up your stuff and go home?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
If they had intended for Abby not to be able to join units, they would have done so, and any amount of bellyaching otherwise doesn't mean he can't. Plain english and logical progression says he can. I understand the mix up, but it really shouldn't be that hard to understand when it is laid plain on front of you.

A unit of Berserkers has a Mark of Khorne.
Does Abby have a different Mark?

I'm not bellyaching, please stop assuming there's negative emotions to what I'm saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:
So if someone were to field a chaos list against you and they had abaddon in a unit of cult marines what would you do? Cry and pack up your stuff and go home?

No, but thanks for assuming that.
First I'd point out that's against the RAW.
Then, since I normally only get the chance to play at tournaments lately, I'd get the TO to make a call and live with whatever he decided.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
If they had intended for Abby not to be able to join units, they would have done so, and any amount of bellyaching otherwise doesn't mean he can't. Plain english and logical progression says he can. I understand the mix up, but it really shouldn't be that hard to understand when it is laid plain on front of you.

A unit of Berserkers has a Mark of Khorne.
Does Abby have a different Mark?

I'm not bellyaching, please stop assuming there's negative emotions to what I'm saying.

Hey, some of us post on this forum just to point out other people are wrong note for those who lack humor: This is a joke. really!

rigeld2 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:
So if someone were to field a chaos list against you and they had abaddon in a unit of cult marines what would you do? Cry and pack up your stuff and go home?

No, but thanks for assuming that.
First I'd point out that's against the RAW.
Then, since I normally only get the chance to play at tournaments lately, I'd get the TO to make a call and live with whatever he decided.

I think he was talking to Godless Mimicry, not you mate

Jihallah wrote:I think he was talking to Godless Mimicry, not you mate

Then you're not very good at following the conversation, no offense, as Kevlar was agreeing with me.

Barrywise wrote:
A couple of downsides: getting your lord into combat might be a serious pain.

Not just getting him there, but getting him there and killing something by turn 2, when your reserves start arriving - this is the subject of much discussion elsewhere, but so far the main idea for this seems to be taking the second turn to allow a first turn charge if your opponent moves forward.

Finally something that I'm not sure about but someone mentioned this in a different thread. What's the possibility of the Daemon prince taking a combat familiar and that creature also generating AP 2 attacks?

Afraid not on the AP2, though the Prince can take one. Check the Chaos Rewards section - it explicitly states the Familiar's attacks are AP -.