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 BudForTheBeerGod wrote:
No, Khorne is not an ork god, Orks run away when they are beaten to get reinforcements, Khorne's followers die to a man. I have at least provided sources for most of my statements, you have yet to provide any to the reverse.

because i was joking.... wow dense. sorry... but that is dense

You know, for an ork, you talk alot....

I wasnt referring to the khorne as an ork god statement, I am referring to your statements about Khorne not being honorable. Show sources please.

 BudForTheBeerGod wrote:
You know, for an ork, you talk alot....

Thank you sir, we do tend to be higher level thinkers, not like those loyalists at all.

In all seriousness though, I'd like to ask just once person give me a reference of honor rather than scruples if you all believe this to adamantly. I personally am fighting against this because the Khorne i've known for years is being ... well "feminized" into this force which acts with reason as opposed to a death obsessed teenager who happens to be spiteful if the person wants to die by their hands or is a cowardly ally. To me this isn't honor this is just the ways men try to remove the fear of death by keeping their distance or letting it rule them.

like a true unfathomable demon they probably reach elation while you are fighting for your life your heart pounding so fast you are about to black out and then suddenly a crackling blade of lightning cuts into your heart as your blood pours out and your soul transitions to the warp. It must be beautiful Ecstasy to a demon who feeds on carnage and hate, to watch life suddenly implode like that from something trying so desperately to live that the demon just... wants to follow those force of beauty in their eyes. But imagine that beautiful moment ruined when they go another 10 years without so much as a single drop of blood being dropped... and to the dismay of khrone it sees they are meek and depressed wanting it all to end horribly traumatized by this 'humanity' thing they have... they just got lucky and Khorne's aspirations now feel betrayed.

To me... this the most logical way Khorne views people as it feeds into the fundamental ideas of death, carnage, destruction ect. and when his champions see a crazed homeless man... it just isn't the same as that space marine fellow who drew the blood of this renowned "painter" of blood Kharn. They deserve a good death and they will be beautiful to be become undone... but a feeble old man? What is the point death would be a mercy... he would remain placid and clam the most vibrant his end would be is lightly speckled with pain... no flair... no tears in the eyes... no twitching muscles gushing blood or screams of furious dying anger... just a limp depressed man finding an end. Solace... and boring

So please... if you have something to dispel this conception i have had for year I ask you to please prove it with just a reference that will show me I am wrong. I am not afraid of being wrong their is so much fluff in 40k but honor and Khorne is one i have never in the last 14 years heard of. The previous poster at least had a shred of evidence but no site-able reference for me to look i up... it's depressing me

Sadly I found these quotes through a wiki also just now, (on my phone in the pub, as me and my mate are aruging this ust now ), I'll check the liber chaotica and the chaos dexes when I get home from le pub.

Khorne, arguing and beers. Another great saturday night on dakka

(I'll apologise now If I'm acting like a bit of a p***k about this, I'm a bit of an overly fanatical Khorne fan, plus in the general 40k universe no one answer is really the right one, I still see Khorne as the honourable battle god from the 3.5 dex I believe and older, I stick to that rather than the newer 'We're a bit mental and enjoy killing' fluff we have now.)

 Rysaer wrote:
Sadly I found these quotes through a wiki also just now, (on my phone in the pub, as me and my mate are aruging this ust now ), I'll check the liber chaotica and the chaos dexes when I get home from le pub.

Khorne, arguing and beers. Another great saturday night on dakka

(I'll apologise now If I'm acting like a bit of a p***k about this, I'm a bit of an overly fanatical Khorne fan, plus in the general 40k universe no one answer is really the right one, I still see Khorne as the honourable battle god from the 3.5 dex I believe and older, I stick to that rather than the newer 'We're a bit mental and enjoy killing' fluff we have now.)

valid points, and it's cool if you don't have a reference I was just hoping to read over it. Like i said i could care less if I am wrong i just don't feel i am and am shocked no one else if battling me on this since so many were initially opposed to my outbursts. If you can find the quotes on something other than lex that is great i prefer readable stuff as opposed to lexicanium if I can but *shrug* only so much i can do.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
Sadly I found these quotes through a wiki also just now, (on my phone in the pub, as me and my mate are aruging this ust now ), I'll check the liber chaotica and the chaos dexes when I get home from le pub.

Khorne, arguing and beers. Another great saturday night on dakka

(I'll apologise now If I'm acting like a bit of a p***k about this, I'm a bit of an overly fanatical Khorne fan, plus in the general 40k universe no one answer is really the right one, I still see Khorne as the honourable battle god from the 3.5 dex I believe and older, I stick to that rather than the newer 'We're a bit mental and enjoy killing' fluff we have now.)

valid points, and it's cool if you don't have a reference I was just hoping to read over it. Like i said i could care less if I am wrong i just don't feel i am and am shocked no one else if battling me on this since so many were initially opposed to my outbursts. If you can find the quotes on something other than lex that is great i prefer readable stuff as opposed to lexicanium if I can but *shrug* only so much i can do.

The quotes he posted are on Lexicanum fyi

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
Sadly I found these quotes through a wiki also just now, (on my phone in the pub, as me and my mate are aruging this ust now ), I'll check the liber chaotica and the chaos dexes when I get home from le pub.

Khorne, arguing and beers. Another great saturday night on dakka

(I'll apologise now If I'm acting like a bit of a p***k about this, I'm a bit of an overly fanatical Khorne fan, plus in the general 40k universe no one answer is really the right one, I still see Khorne as the honourable battle god from the 3.5 dex I believe and older, I stick to that rather than the newer 'We're a bit mental and enjoy killing' fluff we have now.)

valid points, and it's cool if you don't have a reference I was just hoping to read over it. Like i said i could care less if I am wrong i just don't feel i am and am shocked no one else if battling me on this since so many were initially opposed to my outbursts. If you can find the quotes on something other than lex that is great i prefer readable stuff as opposed to lexicanium if I can but *shrug* only so much i can do.

The quotes he posted are on Lexicanum fyi

i prefer readable stuff as opposed to lexicanium if I can but *shrug* only so much i can do.

you don't read ... do you? Sorry, I know you are trying to help but ... egh feth it. To me reading it help more than trusting lex every time.

I'm an avid, dex, black library and other publication reader, I just have a terrible memory especially for specific quotes, although I must agree that using lexi isn't a credible source.

It's like using wikipedia as a reference in a college/uni coursework or the like

Right. Like any good professor will tell you, check the citations at the bottom, actually READ those citations, and use those instead.

So... When was the last time Kharn was actually mentioned in this thread?

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Arthas367 wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
You want his equal? That's easy Arjac Rockfist.

While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.

In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.

Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.

Thanks for the my daily laugh.....

In game terms Statiscally Kharn will just kill him before he even knows whats going on, lets do alil theory hammer Arjac clocks in at 188 pts to Kharns' 160, 28 pts worth charge priority for Kharn?

So Kharn charges in, Arjac Counter Atks, Kharn comes in with 7 atks hitting on 2's with Hatred, followed by wound on 2's with gorechild, so lets say 6 wounds, storm shield saves 4? Sounds like a dead Arjac to me

Now in fluff terms Kharn has been around since the Crusades, killed many times, and killing innumerable more, He survived Angron's beserk onslaught, in his early years, and only grew more fierce as time went on, Some upstart champion is not Kharn's equal, Logan would be hard pressed to contend.

Considering if arjac charges in before he declares he could just throw his hammer and slay kharn with a pretty high probably with a percision strike is pretty humorus to me too... LOS is only a 1 in 6 chance of failing but it is still enough to cause a very big cry baby CSM player in moments. Assuming he is lucky enough to dodge the hammer when Arjac accepts or issues the challenge Kharn yet again has a chance to be worthless to the group or just straight up start killing his own unit. Arjac is able to take punishment very well and you should never underestimate the abilities of 3+ saves, because if nothing else Arjac's company will win the battle in the end even if he manages be killed in the first round. But the sheer potential of 1 strike and ur dead clearly makes him an equal for Kharn, because luck or unluck doesn't matter no one is "unbeatable" long as all it takes it 1 strike to deal with him.

Well kharn for one does not possess a demon weapon, so none of this he does nothing buisness, its an ap2 ccw that grants +1 str, and yes kharn can roll a 1 to hit, but hitting on 2s with hatred generally means no, kharn is more likely to survive arjacs hammer toss than he is likely to survive kharns round of atks, so you can say hes is awesome and amazing, but statiscally kharn is more consistent ingame and costs almost 30 pts less to boot.

 Just Dave wrote:
So... When was the last time Kharn was actually mentioned in this thread?

Is that what we were supposed to be talking about?

Sorry for dragging this off topic

 Rysaer wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
So... When was the last time Kharn was actually mentioned in this thread?

Is that what we were supposed to be talking about?

Sorry for dragging this off topic

I already threw my apology in for that. The concept of him being honorable or his patron liking honor was something i diverted flow to proof. Feel free to throw out new people who could fight Kharn

Khorne's fluff used to emphasize martial honor among his combatants, but due to stupid writing that made him a big fat manchild who would be just as happy with you stabbing chickens as he would with you killing strong warriors, he is now mostly a god of mindless slaughter.

Fantasy Flight Games's Black Crusade is the only recent thing I can recall besides some varied BL books that show the honorable side of Khorne.

Edited by AgeOfEgos

Okies, after being home for the last hour or so I've gone through, the Liber Chaotica: Khorne, All the chaos codexs since 2nd edition, the index astartes article on the world eaters, the Warhammer: Realm of Chaos 'Slaves to darkness', the FF Black Crusade book, the new FW Horus Heresy book and several WD, old brb's and older publications back to RT era.

I have learned from this, I stand a bit corrected and sorry for dragging this off topic again but I felt I should explain and sort of apologise for my earlier transgressions/rash statements, especially to Big Mek Wurrzog as he was actually pretty spot on and I didn't exactly react well initially, I blame the beers/khorne

Here are some of the quotes I found that actually clear up Khorne a bit for me, as I've now realised that while he does respect martial pride/prowess this isn't really the same as honour and in fact honour is usually what leads to people falling to Khorne and becoming debased killers.

I actually have a lot of quotes but I won't post them all, just the more relevant. Again this is the last time I'll drag this off topic.



As I mentioned there are a lot more I could post but that’s enough, as this is off topic. So what I’ve learned is that while Khorne doesn’t directly relish honour, pride and prowess, these are the things that can drive people into his embrace. So in a way they are a part of him but clearly he is more concerned simply with followers battling, fighting, killing, slaughtering and butchering in his name and as we’ve always known this doesn’t necessarily need to be driven by honour etc. I’ve actually enjoyed getting back in touch with my Khorne roots, and I’ve forgotten how much I love the blood soaked sod that he is, and if anyone wants any more information or access to the information behind these quotes then PM me.

Now back to topic, I'm still struggling to answer this to be honest as I'm finding it hard to think of anyone with relative amount of martial prowess and experience on the imperial side of things, the only ones that spring to mind for me just now would be the likes of Dante, Calgar, Logan Grimnar and possibly Gabriel Seth (although probably because he seems a bit mental also ).

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

He's called the betrayer because his fellow marines refused to fight ie they acted dishonourably (In Kharn's eyes) and he performed some battlefield discipline, he did Betray his Legion but not his God

 BudForTheBeerGod wrote:

Not really, Kharn is the betrayer because in a battle on a deathworld, his fellow world eaters displayed cowardice in the face of sub freezing tempature that only might have killed them and returned to their shelters rather then continue the attack. Kharn tried to urge them forward and when they ignored him he picked up a heavy flamer and his other weapons, and slew both his enemies and his cowardly allies (cowardice isnt honorable), after which he was known as the "betrayer", which isnt really correct as his fellow warriors had betrayed Khorne by not continuing the fight, while Kharn has always remained Loyal.

Except, Skalanthrax wasn't the only incident where Kharne slaughtered his own allies, thus the notion that he only betrays cowards/dishonorable people is false. Kharne betrays all his allies- that is his nature. That's why he is "the betrayer". It's even in his special rules..

 ArbitorIan wrote:
In terms of fluff, as an equal in idea (though not in rules), crazy Gabriel Seth?

This is something that I always thought would be an epic fight, Blood Reaver clashing with Gore Child. Something that is probably likely to happen in the most "recent" events of 40k, what with the Darkest Hour being mentioned.

999.M41 The Darkest Hour - a tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan is on a direct course for the Blood Angels homeworld, Baal. Exacerbating this already terrible threat is a massive daemon army led by the dread bloodthirster Ka'Bandha, which has already struck at Ammonai, the outermost planet of the Baal system. Facing a possible war on two fronts, Commander Dante sends out a call for all Chapters descended from the Blood Angels to send forces to aid their ancestor Legion; the Flesh Tearers are the first to do so, deploying the entire Chapter for war. Ultimately all but the Lamenters do so, even the renegade Knights of Blood

Not unlikely that mortal servants of Khorne would make the journey to the Baal system in such a time.

Some justify their slaughter through honour, bravery or pride but the most fanatical know that only the bloodshed matters.

Which is why I laugh at the idea of Khorne having honor.

Khorne's most devoted servants have no honor. They only let the blood flow. Kharn is one of his most devoted servants.

Honor does not have to mean you do not kill your buddie in Khorne's way anyways.

I fail to see how murdering one's friends is a show of honor.

 Melissia wrote:
I fail to see how murdering one's friends is a show of honor.

You're just not devoted enough to see, huh?

 Melissia wrote:

Some justify their slaughter through honour, bravery or pride but the most fanatical know that only the bloodshed matters.

Which is why I laugh at the idea of Khorne having honor.

Khorne's most devoted servants have no honor. They only let the blood flow. Kharn is one of his most devoted servants.

Thats why I posted that up, it disproves the whole Khorne is honourable thing, I already explained I was wrong about that, hence why I put up all the quotes to show why Khorne doesn't have or need honour.

 Rysaer wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Some justify their slaughter through honour, bravery or pride but the most fanatical know that only the bloodshed matters.

Which is why I laugh at the idea of Khorne having honor.

Khorne's most devoted servants have no honor. They only let the blood flow. Kharn is one of his most devoted servants.

Thats why I posted that up, it disproves the whole Khorne is honourable thing, I already explained I was wrong about that, hence why I put up all the quotes to show why Khorne doesn't have or need honour.

As far as Loyalist, i follow the IOM a bit but in the truest form of orks

I would say Ghazghul would utter annihilate Kharn during his waaaghs and as far as fluff goes no one has been able to take him down not offico assassinorium or the Black Templars Chapter Master. he has crushed entire Imperial worlds and despite Kharn having a few thousand more years on him ghazghull is slaughtering up a kill count.

Wazzadakka would need to get lucky to beat him i think

I envision grotsnik and Kharn having a almost "predator" scene... sept it would be be grotsnik on the defensive setting up booby traps ect.

Zagstrukk.... much as I love him.... I envision a blood end by Kharn's hand.

Old Zogwort, i think he's be "Cunnin" enough to not even challenge mighty Kharn he'd send in a double and then hope he could turn him into a squig....considering I recall him being stupidly resistant to deny the witch... probably would end up dying or taking down alot of boyz fluff wise with him.

then again ork special characters suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck rules and fluff wise

Creed would do it easily, simply by outflanking a baneblade in Kharn helmet and then pick up another cigar.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Creed would do it easily, simply by outflanking a baneblade in Kharn helmet and then pick up another cigar.

that's why cadia still stands.

If it has to be a human, than I would have to say bjorn the fell handed, that or mephiston. Otherwise, if it could be xenos, and it is not limited to close combat, then the clear answer would be 6 broadsides.

 psychadelicmime wrote:
If it has to be a human, than I would have to say bjorn the fell handed, that or mephiston. Otherwise, if it could be xenos, and it is not limited to close combat, then the clear answer would be 6 broadsides.

Wait, I thought you said human?

Those are marines, not humans.

I think the OP was asking for a Space Marine (loyalist) who could defeat Kharn or equal him.

My money is still on Dante having a pretty good shot in one on one combat.

 Melissia wrote:

 psychadelicmime wrote:
If it has to be a human, than I would have to say bjorn the fell handed, that or mephiston. Otherwise, if it could be xenos, and it is not limited to close combat, then the clear answer would be 6 broadsides.

Wait, I thought you said human?

Those are marines, not humans.

Are... Are you actually claiming that?