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So after reading the codex, being pleased all around and writing up a quick ideas list I got to thinking.
Just how good are these new rules for challenges.

My 1st batch of ideas centered around lots of melta, lots of mutations and champs with at least a power weapon.
I was honestly a little lost with my hq options and struggled to even place my lord/sorcerer in a usefull place.

I think it looks pretty good but I can't bring myself to try it out because: who is brave/stupid enough to take a chaos marine in single combat?
I mean as lovely as all those mutations are, what's to stop my opponent simply refusing the challenge every turn?

I think, and I want to hear what you think about this so fire away, this gives my foe 2 choices.

1. Take the challenge, risking loosing a squad leader, giving me that chance of going demon, but possibly saving a few dudes.
2. Refuse, suffer some combat without a character and let me kill more but no mutations.

What's your thoughts on how this new rule mechanic will affect the game?
How will you take the challenges, and why?
What loadouts do you think can take full advantage of this rule set?



P.S. I'm not talking about the big boys of combat like Typhus, lords etc, just the squad champs and the like.
Though I won't discourage talk of such things ether.

Well, one thing to consider is the possibility of facing another CSM player! In our first game of the new codex, we had Khârn and Berserkers vs Thypus, Plague Marines, and Nurgle Daemons. Challenges were had all around. Now that won't always be the case, but just something to keep in mind.

I see IG more than anyone else being able to play the challenge denial game best and prevent rolls on the boon table.

With my current setup, outside of taking losses or previous lost challenges, I always try to ensure that there are at least two Champion of Chaos models involved in an assault: one "heavy hitter" with either a PF or Axe that can dish out high S, no armor saves hit, and one guy that strikes at either AP 2 or 3 and at Initiative (usually I5). I accomplish this with my Skull Champions (or whatever they are called now) having Power Fists and attaching either Khârn and/or a CSM Lord w/ the Axe Daemon weapon thus giving me a better option of who to challenge with/accept a challenge.

Chaos vs chaos actually sounds really fun. That's brightened my day a little.

Personally I like the power sword option. Having never used marines of any kind I'm unconvinced the risk of hitting last with a axe/fist is worth it in a challenge, beyond a lord/terminator or something else rocking an invul save.
Speed seems to be the key to a challenge, in my mind anyway.

However, it seems that if my challenge is refused a 2nd character could still allocate wounds to the character.
Is this a way to get around challenge refusal?

Eg, chaos champ challenges a dire avenger exarch.
Exarch declines.
The chaos Lord then directs his attacks at the exarch using precision strikes, base to base wound allocation etc.
The chaos lord kills the exarch and gets to roll on the mutation table.

Is this correct?

the new challenge rule is a huge downside to CSM. You no longer can hide your characters from nastier characters. I would like to be able to save my warpsmiths, sorcerers, and dark aposltes to fight another day.

Further even when the challenge is relatively fair, you still have only a 50/50 shot of killing the enemy character.

When you truely have a good shot at winning a challenge the risk of becoming a DP or Spawn is horrid as you will end up losing points and abilities either way. Abbadon can win challenges, but I dont want him turing into a DP unless he is down to one wound and I never want him to turn into a spawn.

Lastly when you do get something in the middle, rarely is it going to matter. none of the abilities are very useful, especially for a character that has already gotten into combat and won.

DonerStoom wrote:Chaos vs chaos actually sounds really fun. That's brightened my day a little.

It is!

DonerStoom wrote:Personally I like the power sword option. Having never used marines of any kind I'm unconvinced the risk of hitting last with a axe/fist is worth it in a challenge, beyond a lord/terminator or something else rocking an invul save.
Speed seems to be the key to a challenge, in my mind anyway.

It is not all about speed though. If you fail to kill at your possibly higher Initiative, then whatever is after you in the challenge will probably be hitting you hard with either an Axe or PF. That's exactly why I run with Khârn and a CSM Lord with the Axe Daemon Weapon. Both are AP 2 and strike at I5, usually before or sometimes at the same time as other challengers. It is also why I run them in the squads with the Berserker Champion with Power Fist. If I'm facing something I can take down before it swings reliably, then I'll issue with the guy that swings at I5. If it is against something that I'm not sure I can take down at initiative, or have difficulty wounding, or if I want Khârn or my Lord to instead swing on the squad causing more damage, I'll challenge/accept with my Power Fist Champion. Either way I have an option of what I challenge with or accept with, and this is what I see being key to the Champion of Chaos rule; having choice with your challenges. Since we do not have the luxury of not accepting or issuing challenges, I take the road that gives me the most options and flexibility in what I'm being forced into. And I like it. Notwithstanding, you can give your Champions an invul save if you want to. I personally have stayed away from Power Swords since 6th dropped. I like my CC attacks to ignore armor saves regardless of what I'm fighting. Fortunately, the new CSM codex gave us options for both swinging at initiative and swinging at I1 with attacks that can get through Termi armor.

DonerStoom wrote:However, it seems that if my challenge is refused a 2nd character could still allocate wounds to the character.
Is this a way to get around challenge refusal?

Eg, chaos champ challenges a dire avenger exarch.
Exarch declines.
The chaos Lord then directs his attacks at the exarch using precision strikes, base to base wound allocation etc.
The chaos lord kills the exarch and gets to roll on the mutation table.

Is this correct?

By my reading of the Champions of Chaos rules, and the Challenges rules in the BRB, that seems correct to me, but if you are uncertain, start a thread in YMDC.

Exergy wrote:the new challenge rule is a huge downside to CSM. You no longer can hide your characters from nastier characters. I would like to be able to save my warpsmiths, sorcerers, and dark aposltes to fight another day.

Further even when the challenge is relatively fair, you still have only a 50/50 shot of killing the enemy character.

I respectfully disagree. You still can hide your characters from "nastier characters" by having another character to accept or give the challenge with. Or even better, try to keep those CSM characters out of assault altogether.

Exergy wrote:When you truely have a good shot at winning a challenge the risk of becoming a DP or Spawn is horrid as you will end up losing points and abilities either way. Abbadon can win challenges, but I dont want him turing into a DP unless he is down to one wound and I never want him to turn into a spawn.

Lastly when you do get something in the middle, rarely is it going to matter. none of the abilities are very useful, especially for a character that has already gotten into combat and won.

And again I respectfully disagree. Abby or really anyone turning into a DP seems alright to me, especially at lower points games. Becoming a DP or Spawn is just part of the risk that comes with the reward. If you don't want to risk it, then keep Abby out of assaults/challenges. And I also disagree with the uselessness of the Boon Table. Actually looking at the table, I count at least 20 of the Boons listed as something I'd want to have on the model that won the challenge/rolled on the table in a vacuum regardless of conditions on the battlefield. Some of them are circumstantial at best, but they are in the minority IMO. Hell, I've rolled 23 and 25 on Khârn, and 36 on my CSM Lord. Anecdotal at best, but honestly look at that table and tell me that you wouldn't want about 2/3rds of those results to be rolled.

I said it on another thread and I'll say it again.
Having your cultist champ get hell of a lucky and go all prince against a unit that's expensive and going to wreck that squad is going to be a total game changer.
That 50 point unit just gave you over 200 points of demon for free.
Hell even if he turns to spawn your winning on points, but that's not what I want him to roll.

As for the other results, none sound bad. Not game changing, but nice to have. I wouldn't turn them down anyway.


You could be on to something with the numerous characters actually. Something I overlooked completely due to my melta love.
Having such a choice has really clear advantages but isn't it a little bit of putting all your eggs in one basket with 3 characters in 1 unit?
Just playing devils advocate, I'll be tailoring my champs to suit any characters I want to put in the unit from now on.


Need to find something to fit a black mace Lord.
I know its AP4 but it could have such an impact if it goes off well. Was considering using it with a slaanesh Lord and dimensional key just cause it sounds like it will cause so much chaos.

DonerStoom wrote:
You could be on to something with the numerous characters actually. Something I overlooked completely due to my melta love.
Having such a choice has really clear advantages but isn't it a little bit of putting all your eggs in one basket with 3 characters in 1 unit?
Just playing devils advocate, I'll be tailoring my champs to suit any characters I want to put in the unit from now on.

Ah, I see the confusion. I was not clear enough. No, I do not put three characters in one unit. I currently run three 8 x Khorne Berserker squads with the Champions all having Power Fists. For my HQ, I have Khârn and the CSM Lord. Khârn goes with one squad, the Lord with another, and the third doesn't have another character. I assault with either Khârn's squad or the Lord's squad (or both!) and then if needed/wanted, toss the third unit of Berserkers where needed in combat. That way I at least have the two characters, either Khârn and a Champ or the Lord and a Champ, with the possibility of a 2nd Champ if things go south.

I see it now.

Though I should have seen it when you had 2 axes in one squad to do the same thing. My bad.

The thread title is for disillusioned; it gives the impression that being forced to challenge is good in the first place.

I'd say its mostly a downside, countered slightly by you getting to roll on the boon table when you win.

If you have a nasty combat character you shouldn't have too much to fear, and you will get your character buffed out of the deal.

Just from looking at the new codex and yet to write an army list the standard HQ choices for CSM look pretty poor to be fair. Being forced to challenge is just a huge disadvantage it's making me consider just taking a bog standard Chaos Lord with the 4+ invulnerable save, power sword and plasma gun and being done with it. Before finally making the choice of CSM I was getting ready to build a Space Wolves army and Lord on a thunderwolf with a power fist would is certainly not something I am looking forward to being forced to challenge. Some careful play I believe is going to be required.

You know.......this idea that a mandatory challenge is bad somehow is nuts for multiple reasons.
1. They are space marines.
2. They are usually better then their snuff counterparts with the gear and marks.
3. THERE IS NO BAD RESULT.
4. For ten points you get a roll that buffs your character further.
5. There are a million ways to use psychic blessings to keep you competative.

Point 3, the idea that a three wound psycho replacing a squad leader is bad is hilarious.

 sfshilo wrote:
You know.......this idea that a mandatory challenge is bad somehow is nuts for multiple reasons.
1. They are space marines.
2. They are usually better then their snuff counterparts with the gear and marks.
3. THERE IS NO BAD RESULT.
4. For ten points you get a roll that buffs your character further.
5. There are a million ways to use psychic blessings to keep you competative.

Point 3, the idea that a three wound psycho replacing a squad leader is bad is hilarious.

having a 3 wound psyco replace your 250 point nasty is bad.
having to accept is the bad party. sometimes you would rather use the squad to attack. so draigo, bloodthirster, swarmlord, or whatever charge up and challenge. Normally you could either decline and have the squad get in a ton of attacks or you could accept the challenge with your sergeant knowing you are going to die, lose combat by 1 point and potentially break. Chaos get no choice. Also what about the personal warlord skill. 1 point for every challenge the oppenents warlord wins? Best tactic is to ignore him and not accept any challenges. Chaos cannot do that.

 sfshilo wrote:
Point 3, the idea that a three wound psycho replacing a squad leader is bad is hilarious.

Really handy when your squad leader is carrying equipment that you want to use and then randomly randoms into a spawn or a DP. It is not as if there isn't more than enough random crap in the CSM codex without your leaders transmogrifying into something. Or when your 200+ point HQ model gets turned into 165 point, large target, or a 30 point spawn...

Then don't pimp them out or use a dark apostle. They aren't space wolves or blood angels, quit thinking that way.

Honestly try it out. Leave them vanilla with a mark and a power weapon. Maybe boon to get things going.

Its. 5.5% chance to become spawn, and a 200 point Hq is insane lol. 180 tops unless you are taking a level 3 psyker or special character

The disconnect is that the CSM got a copypaste of their Fantasy counterparts rule. After an edition change that
heavily weakened the Assault part of the game. 6th Edition is a shooting edition, pure and simple.

Trying to make close combat work is difficult as is even without being saddled with mandatory challenges.
So yes, I consider the Chaos challenge rules to a burden.

 A-P wrote:
The disconnect is that the CSM got a copypaste of their Fantasy counterparts rule. After an edition change that
heavily weakened the Assault part of the game. 6th Edition is a shooting edition, pure and simple.

Trying to make close combat work is difficult as is even without being saddled with mandatory challenges.
So yes, I consider the Chaos challenge rules to a burden.

This book seems like nothing but a lot of copy/paste. Nothing original went into it at all. Oh we got a crappier tech priest and a crappier librarian. And crappier penal legion. And some ugly dreadnought with weapon options that make them almost as good as psyriflemen, but they cost a lot more. And another melee dreadnought that is worse than a contemptor/furioso. All our good troops became elite, but if we pay for an HQ that we may or may not want we can move them back to troops. But then we might not be able to take the special character we want. Oh and daemon princes are way overpriced. So are defilers. So go buy the new finecast kits.

 sfshilo wrote:
You know.......this idea that a mandatory challenge is bad somehow is nuts for multiple reasons.
1. They are space marines.
2. They are usually better then their snuff counterparts with the gear and marks.
3. THERE IS NO BAD RESULT.
4. For ten points you get a roll that buffs your character further.
5. There are a million ways to use psychic blessings to keep you competative.

Point 3, the idea that a three wound psycho replacing a squad leader is bad is hilarious.

Awful argument! Gears and marks are not amazing and choice is very limited unless you take terminator armour. I'm sure whoever wrote this random boon table had a simple brief to create something to ensure sales of Chaos Spawn and Daemon Prince figures went up. Some of the unit types are pointless like Mutilators and over expensive warp talons, though I do like those figures. I have this perception that Chaos Space Marine lords should be some of the best in the game, but this is not the case. For example I have the Dark Vengeance Chaos Space Marine lord which I was thinking of using it as my Warlord and unless I give him the Murder sword his only other option is a power sword which is awful for a Chaos lord in my opinion. There is no choice of a standard daemon weapon/sword which is very disappointing.

Regardless what you set your HQs and champions up to do, sometimes it will be the better play to choose to avoid the challenge. The rule denies you a play option and is inherently bad. The presence of the Boon table should be evaluated seperately because it can exist independently of the forced challenge component of the rule. Without the latter, you'd still have the chance of turning a random aspiring champion into something good. Or your core HQ into something bad. And frankly, the rule will randomly lose you the game in tight situations, with no ability to control it. If you could refuse challenges, you could avoid that.

The entire construct is evidently an attempt to bring in cinematic effects, drawn straight from Warriors of Chaos with no regard for how it influences 40k gameplay constructs and what I can only assume is active antipathy for skill-rewarding gameplay.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The thread title is for disillusioned; it gives the impression that being forced to challenge is good in the first place.

Sure, but if you're playing Chaos and building the list like challenges are bad, then I'm not entirely sure you're approaching this codex with the right mindset. I think what this gives you is an opportunity to kit out your army to win challenges, something that a lot of opponents won't do. I'm toying with a lot of different builds that will punish PF sargeants and I'm excited.

 sfshilo wrote:
Then don't pimp them out

So they get killed instead? Awesome.

or use a dark apostle

Yes, because I want and am able to field an army made entirely of Dark Apostles!

They aren't space wolves or blood angels, quit thinking that way.

... what makes you think that I am?

Honestly try it out. Leave them vanilla

So then they die to pretty much any half way decent CC character...

with a mark and a power weapon. Maybe boon to get things going.

Oh, wait, so don't leave them vanilla?

So, the cheapest champion (CSM regular Aspiring Champion) would cost an extra 27 points? A dark apostle kitted out like that would cost at least 25 points extra, and would not be able to get gift of mutation either.

Its. 5.5% chance to become spawn, and a 200 point Hq is insane lol. 180 tops unless you are taking a level 3 psyker or special character

3 of the named characters are over 200 points; personally I would not want any of them turning into either a DP or Spawn. Hell, I don't want anything that I have actually chosen to have turning into a DP or spawn. I am actually pretty appalled going into 6th just how little of my army is actually under my control now; you have to roll about 60 dice before you even start setting up terrain to "randomly determine" pretty much everything about your fricking army.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The thread title is for disillusioned; it gives the impression that being forced to challenge is good in the first place.

We need to make a smug little smiley just for you for when you post things like this.

If someone could draw one up they would get many exaltations. ESPECIALLY if it was wearing a little hat that was an ass, that would be absolutely perfect


Being forced into making challenges sucks, as it robs you of tactical choices. But on the upside, a recent game I observed had a nurgle biker roll triple boon, and then get +1 toughness 3 times. Yeah yeah probability I know I know... but a T9 biker makes for some hilarity on the board!

 Jihallah wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The thread title is for disillusioned; it gives the impression that being forced to challenge is good in the first place.

We need to make a smug little smiley just for you for when you post things like this.

If someone could draw one up they would get many exaltations. ESPECIALLY if it was wearing a little hat that was an ass, that would be absolutely perfect


Being forced into making challenges sucks, as it robs you of tactical choices. But on the upside, a recent game I observed had a nurgle biker roll triple boon, and then get +1 toughness 3 times. Yeah yeah probability I know I know... but a T9 biker makes for some hilarity on the board!

Yep, the other thing is that your opponents are unlikely to kit out for challenges, which can give you an edge.

 Stoffer wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The thread title is for disillusioned; it gives the impression that being forced to challenge is good in the first place.

Sure, but if you're playing Chaos and building the list like challenges are bad, then I'm not entirely sure you're approaching this codex with the right mindset. I think what this gives you is an opportunity to kit out your army to win challenges, something that a lot of opponents won't do. I'm toying with a lot of different builds that will punish PF sargeants and I'm excited.

That's fine for HQ's (and easy), but for all the free unit champions you get, there's not a lot you can do. I know there have been more than a few times while sussing potential tactics out I've hit the 'oh crap but he has to challenge' wall. I can see your point, and it is a good one, but I just don't see it as being that easy, especially since once you start putting too many points into such upgrades then you are lacking in other areas. And then of course there's the time you come up against a list where you won't get to challenge much, and so those points are partly wasted. It's just one of those 'crux of the matter' things IMO.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Stoffer wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The thread title is for disillusioned; it gives the impression that being forced to challenge is good in the first place.

Sure, but if you're playing Chaos and building the list like challenges are bad, then I'm not entirely sure you're approaching this codex with the right mindset. I think what this gives you is an opportunity to kit out your army to win challenges, something that a lot of opponents won't do. I'm toying with a lot of different builds that will punish PF sargeants and I'm excited.

That's fine for HQ's (and easy), but for all the free unit champions you get, there's not a lot you can do. I know there have been more than a few times while sussing potential tactics out I've hit the 'oh crap but he has to challenge' wall. I can see your point, and it is a good one, but I just don't see it as being that easy, especially since once you start putting too many points into such upgrades then you are lacking in other areas. And then of course there's the time you come up against a list where you won't get to challenge much, and so those points are partly wasted. It's just one of those 'crux of the matter' things IMO.

Yep, definitely agree that it won't be easy. I'm going to play around with with this and see how it works with my sorcs/bikers especially. I have a good feel about them being able to harass an build up some boon.

Challenges can save one model HQs and characters, like a DP. Because you must issue a challenge (and against another CSM player, they must accept!), you usually stay in the assault until your opponents turn, where your awesome dude can clear the squad out to rinse and repeat. Challenges are a GOOD thing for Demon Princes, Axe of Blind Fury Lords, etc ... as if keeps them alive and kicking.

Either your opponent accepts and denies himself the pleasure of shooting you next turn, or he denies and his squad is hosed that much sooner. It is a curious defense that the 1 man units will always want to issue anyways, at least.

Tactics and army builds will have to adjust, for example running two characters in a unit so you can choose which to challenge with in different situations, and with the free upgrade sargeants, don't upgrade them and most of the time if they suck in comparison to the enemy's character it's still good when they challenge, it takes the enemy character out of the battle.

 Jihallah wrote:

Being forced into making challenges sucks, as it robs you of tactical choices. But on the upside, a recent game I observed had a nurgle biker roll triple boon, and then get +1 toughness 3 times. Yeah yeah probability I know I know... but a T9 biker makes for some hilarity on the board!

That sounds cool and all but its against the rules. You must re-roll any result you have already received.