Dam those daemon flamers! Help on beating them.

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**rigeld2**

As was said earlier, placing the template is the equivalent of rolling to hit.

Daemons aren't the only template abusers - ork burnawagons are freaking deadly.

**AndrewC**

But unfortunately it is not rolling to hit, it is a separate mechanism. A mechanism that is not recognised by the rule on P16.

Whether your RAI is what was intended by GW (more than likely I admit) what GW wrote is not the same.

Cheers

Andrew

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

AndrewC wrote:
But unfortunately it is not rolling to hit, it is a separate mechanism. A mechanism that is not recognised by the rule on P16.

Whether your RAI is what was intended by GW (more than likely I admit) what GW wrote is not the same.

Cheers

Andrew

Yay glad most TOs don't use your logic

**riverhawks32**

Ally guard. Take 2 platoons full to the brim in bodies. Space them out full coherency length. Demons drop, kill a couple, die to the 58725725 FRFSRF shots flying at them.

**Kevlar**

riverhawks32 wrote:
Ally guard. Take 2 platoons full to the brim in bodies. Space them out full coherency length. Demons drop, kill a couple, die to the 58725725 FRFSRF shots flying at them.

Unless they have pavane. Collapsing your platoon into a nice template shaped formation right in front of the flamers should generate quite a decent amount of hits.

**Godless-Mimicry**

Kevlar wrote:
riverhawks32 wrote:
Ally guard. Take 2 platoons full to the brim in bodies. Space them out full coherency length. Demons drop, kill a couple, die to the 58725725 FRFSRF shots flying at them.

Unless they have pavane. Collapsing your platoon into a nice template shaped formation right in front of the flamers should generate quite a decent amount of hits.

And a not so reliable morale check.

**schadenfreude**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Kevlar wrote:
riverhawks32 wrote:
Ally guard. Take 2 platoons full to the brim in bodies. Space them out full coherency length. Demons drop, kill a couple, die to the 58725725 FRFSRF shots flying at them.

Unless they have pavane. Collapsing your platoon into a nice template shaped formation right in front of the flamers should generate quite a decent amount of hits.

And a not so reliable morale check.

Don't combine the platton. Pavane + flamers isn't that scary if it's only going to kill a 10 man squad of regular gaurdsmen.

**rigeld2**

AndrewC wrote:
But unfortunately it is not rolling to hit, it is a separate mechanism. A mechanism that is not recognised by the rule on P16.

Whether your RAI is what was intended by GW (more than likely I admit) what GW wrote is not the same.

It would do you well to actually read the rules if you want to discuss them.
Page 52, Template weapons. Instead of rolling to hit, place the template.
That equates the two mechanisms.

**hdbbstephen**

>>AndrewC, by "polling" I meant the group of players at the FLGS. If that's how they play, that's the rule. Until or unless it gets FAQd. Which is unlikely since it's been that way since 5th Ed.

I suppose it jumped out at me because it was such a departure from 3rd Ed, which was the rule when I last played back in '03.

**AndrewC**

rigeld2 wrote:
It would do you well to actually read the rules if you want to discuss them.

Oh Yes, that wonderful statement, thank you for providing it.

Page 52, Template weapons. Instead of rolling to hit, place the template.
That equates the two mechanisms.

Firstly thank you for for acknowledging that there are two separate mechanisms at work here.

Page 52 describes the method for determining hits for template weapons by telling you to ignore To Hit rolls however the rule on P16 specifically refers you to the To Hit rules.

I have already acknowledged that the RAI is as you have stated, I have only pointed out that RAW (due to a badly written rule) templates can only hit those models actually under the template as the rule allowing you to roll over excess hits to other members of the squad is 'closed' to templates because they have no access to the activating condition which is To Hit rolls.

Have a nice day.

Andrew

**rigeld2**

Take this to YMDC if you still disagree - its off-topic for this thread.
Placing the template is equivalent to rolling to hit. Meaning the rule is not "closed" to it.

It'd be better if they only hit models under the template - template sniping would be awesome.

**grendel083**

The rule on page 16 has nothing to do with wounding models not under a template. Not sure why it's being brought into the argument.
What allows models not under the template to be wounded is on page 52 "Wounds inflicted by Template weapons are allocated following the normal rules".
Templates must hit as many models as possible, this meanst he closest model may not even be hit by the Template, but the closest model must be allocated to first.

**JAMOB**

Yuber wrote:
You are playing a blood angels army: That's the problem in itself - you are bringing a paper to a scissor fight.

The only way I can fathom that can deal with such a list is a shooty list - something the BA has trouble with...

Have you tried a bolter-armed death company? Pelt them to death. I think the key is keeping them from deep striking at favorable positions.

There is really nothing wrong with your list, and tactics can only help you so much. There are just fights you cant win.

LValx wrote:Where to start?

For one, Blood Angels will ALWAYS be gimped vs Flamers. Unfortunately the lack of bolters really, really hurts you. Lascannons, Missiles and even Riflemen aren't particularly good options because none of them particularly excel at killing light infantry.

Grey Knight detachments aren't the auto-fix that many are making them out to be. For one, warp quake only helps you if you go first (there is also some decreased effectiveness with the ability to pre-measure). Otherwise you are still pretty much at the mercy of the Flamers. Secondly 10 Strikers with 2 Psycannons will only kill 4-5 Flamers, that simply isnt enough as even 2-3 Flamers can easily kill an entire squad of marines.

Sending fodder units in to absorb overwatch or having large, cheap screens are two of your very best options. I would recommend taking Coteaz, 10 Purifiers, 10 Strikes and a squad of max Henchmen, completely plain. This gives you an effective screen with which you can protect the rest of your army and gain more turns of shooting.

As suggested by others, I would also take as few upgrades as possible so as to maximize how many bodies you have on the table!

Does your friend also run screamers and FMCs? Because that is when the flamers get really brutal. New Daemons are borderline broken.

This almost made me cry. I only read page 1 and the last one... BA are not bad against flamers. We can take bolters just as much as smurfs can, we can take more punishing fire than them for cheaper (see dev prices), we can kill flamers too.
That said, spread out with a core of shooty troops. Then...

jy2 wrote:Before assaulting them, I split up my destroyer lord from my wraiths. I then charge my destroyer lord first. Naturally he dies....but I don't care because he's equipped with a res orb. Then the wraiths can charge in overwatch-free and my d-lord has a 50% chance to get back up.

With other armies, you need a cheap sacrificial unit to make the charge first. After that unit eats the overwatch, then you charge in your hammer unit.

this. Shoot them with bolters/whatever the hell you want then charge in with 1-4 models then again with legit combat units. Just dont spread out much at first... I mean, dont advance one unit forward etc...

**MarkyMark**

This is my next plan of attack against demons, use a termie shield literally, all with TH SS and sang priests with them, then have a lot of bolters deployed behind them so any templates will be directed onto the termies, let the termies take the alpha strike then rapid fire rapid fire rapid fire, then termies charge in then the DC,

**Kevlar**

Finally a use for chaos mutliators.

Single mutilator absorbs the overwatch fire from a unit of flamers so that your real assault unit can charge in unmolested.

Although I suppose 10 cultists could do the same thing.

**Inigo Montoya**

Don't forget that the guy with flamers is also sporting S5 AP2 screamers to destroy your wall of terminators.

**MarkyMark**

Inigo Montoya wrote:
Don't forget that the guy with flamers is also sporting S5 AP2 screamers to destroy your wall of terminators.

But he isnt, its nurgle and tzeentch.

**CappyBen**

Someone has probably already said this but grab an allied vanilla marine libby and have him take null zone then just force him to take saves. I use this against all the deamons I p[lay and it obliterates them.

**An'arkh'ad'nron**

MarkyMark wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:
Don't forget that the guy with flamers is also sporting S5 AP2 screamers to destroy your wall of terminators.

But he isnt, its nurgle and tzeentch.

But he is...
I play both flamers and screamers....

**Inigo Montoya**

If a player spams flamers and takes no screamers with daemons as his primary detachment, then you should beat him, as he has no clear understanding of the codex. A squad of screamers will just destroy terminator squads and low initiative squads outright. If your opponent is 3+ armor I4 exclusively, then they are tank hunting jetbikes.

Daemons are viable again, and very hard to deal with for many builds.

**samuele999**

Right I'm back again to find this post is still alive!

So basically would
Corteaz + 2 unit of grey knight strike squads
+ imp
with loads of 10 man squads
mortars
griffons etc

Work?

I'm gonna have to give up on my ba against my demon friend, but the look on his face will be beautiful with this list.
Strike squads mean he cant deepstrike with 12 inches of my imp line if I go first
Corteaz is lovely at 100 points,lv 2 pysker, who could get a 4++ inv for a unit or re-roll to hits + re roll seize the initiative
Then imp do what they do best, send out a billzilion shots+ small templates via griffons + mortars
And then I laugh mwhaaa

And thanks guys for your help!

**schadenfreude**

10 strikes
10 interceptors
10 purifiers or a unit of purgation with 4 heavy incinerators.
Coteaz

Shunt the interceptors, cover almost the entire board with warpquake. When you place a mishap coteaz and 4 heavy incinerators light up the entire squad while still clustered.

**An'arkh'ad'nron**

samuele999 wrote:
Right I'm back again to find this post is still alive!

So basically would
Corteaz + 2 unit of grey knight strike squads
+ imp
with loads of 10 man squads
mortars
griffons etc

Work?

I'm gonna have to give up on my ba against my demon friend, but the look on his face will be beautiful with this list.
Strike squads mean he cant deepstrike with 12 inches of my imp line if I go first
Corteaz is lovely at 100 points,lv 2 pysker, who could get a 4++ inv for a unit or re-roll to hits + re roll seize the initiative
Then imp do what they do best, send out a billzilion shots+ small templates via griffons + mortars
And then I laugh mwhaaa

And thanks guys for your help!

Uh oh....