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@ All: Please recall that use of gay a pejorative term is not allowed on Dakka Dakka. Thanks.

As pejorative I understand, but if its a legitimately gay thing then it should be allowed. People are to sensitive to it now, the word isn't evil if you use it right

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
As pejorative I understand, but if its a legitimately gay thing then it should be allowed. People are to sensitive to it now, the word isn't evil if you use it right

The problem is now that most people don't know how yo use some words in the correct manner, and as a result their first reaction is to call it wrong/ bad.

A recent study found that the most likely "grouping" of people to take offence at racist/ homophobic terms were middle-class straight white males; it also suggest this was because they felt it was their "duty" to stand up for others in a "minority".

Think about that for a moment.

Okay, thanks everyone, let's get back on-topic.

GW defines WYSIWYG: An important principle of our events is "what you see is what you get" or WYSIWYG (pronounced "wizzywig") for short. All this means is unless you are using the 'counts as' rule (see below), then miniatures are assumed to have their equipment actually shown on the model. It would be grossly unfair to show the model being equipped with one thing, but claiming it to be armed with another; wars have been started for less.

GW defines COUNTS AS: The 'Counts As' rule allows you to apply the rules for existing units to older or scratch built models that do not have rules of their own. This is to allow you to make full use of your collection or the army choices within our rule books; it's not an excuse to change your army as a way of fine tuning your force.

----

Counts-as only works for models that aren't valid, playable models already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP, I can understand your point in being frustrated in the first place. If your guy is missing arms, he obviously has something, and your opponent can ask if he can't remember. Also, you told him up front. Meanwhile you look at his dudes and they are totally valid models, and he doesn't tell you otherwise, but TA DUH its something else.

Either way, proxying something to try it out is common. Playing game after game and just renaming a model to use another set of rules over and over without having to buy the right models is not the same thing,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, the manger is within his LEGAL rights to ban anyone, so long as its not based on blah blah blah.

That doesn't mean it is within the GW company policy, or that it's right. Obviously their management will want to hear his side too, if you go that route, but it's usually easier to try and make amends one on one and see if he can't understand why you were upset with his 'change' to store policy, and maybe you can try and understand where he was coming from, wherever that might have been.

 Milisim wrote:
Go to another sotre buy some white primer.

Spray all you models white.

Proceed to paint them ALL the brightest pink on earth.

Paint the bases green and guns black. This is the usual 3 colours required basics met.

apologize to the manager even if you dont mean it.

Continue to play at GW and know that everytime you play you piss this guy off even more by having the absloute [Mod edit] looking army on earth and there is nothing he can do about it.

Make sure you are ultra nice to him and always have a big lame smile on your face.... he will likely rage quit hahaha =]

And even after all of that, the store manager can still deny entry to the store, because he doesn't need a reason to deny entry to his own store as long as he's not being discriminatory.

Am I the only one that totally wants the manager to read this post and permaban him? Apologies, OP, as this may sound rude, but it sounds like you think of yourself as your store's "grizzled veteran" and are insulted that the new manager had the gall to tell you that you're being contradictory.

Dakka isn't here to help you settle your differences with your arch-rival, it's basic human interaction. You both upset eachother. Man up and apologize. Or hit the guy. Your call. (I suggest the former.)

 spycer wrote:
GW defines WYSIWYG: An important principle of our events is "what you see is what you get" or WYSIWYG (pronounced "wizzywig") for short. All this means is unless you are using the 'counts as' rule (see below), then miniatures are assumed to have their equipment actually shown on the model. It would be grossly unfair to show the model being equipped with one thing, but claiming it to be armed with another; wars have been started for less.

I though GW removed the wysiwyg rule in this new edition?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 spycer wrote:
GW defines WYSIWYG: An important principle of our events is "what you see is what you get" or WYSIWYG (pronounced "wizzywig") for short. All this means is unless you are using the 'counts as' rule (see below), then miniatures are assumed to have their equipment actually shown on the model. It would be grossly unfair to show the model being equipped with one thing, but claiming it to be armed with another; wars have been started for less.

I though GW removed the wysiwyg rule in this new edition?

Still can't show me a bolter and then use it as a melta.

That I agree with, but his model had no weapons modeled? So surely it would have the equiptment he gave them?

My local GW banned someone for using a pirated .pdf of a codex on his phone,so yes, you can be banned.

 Tyriion wrote:
My local GW banned someone for using a pirated .pdf of a codex on his phone,so yes, you can be banned.

That guy must have been fething slowed, why would you even THINK of doing that? It's like going to a Starcraft tournament with a cracked version of the game.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

 Tyriion wrote:
My local GW banned someone for using a pirated .pdf of a codex on his phone,so yes, you can be banned.

That guy must have been fething slowed, why would you even THINK of doing that? It's like going to a Starcraft tournament with a cracked version of the game.

I know. I also seen another guy who didnt get banned, but got warned/told off for pulling a rulebook off the shelf, pretending it was his, proceeding to play a game using it for reference, and "forgetting" to put it down when walking out of the store..

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

 Tyriion wrote:
My local GW banned someone for using a pirated .pdf of a codex on his phone,so yes, you can be banned.

That guy must have been fething slowed, why would you even THINK of doing that? It's like going to a Starcraft tournament with a cracked version of the game.

I don't think its much like that. Some people own the books and just want to be able to jump to what they need more quickly. Its practical and pragmatic if you own the books and unethical if you don't.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

 Tyriion wrote:
My local GW banned someone for using a pirated .pdf of a codex on his phone,so yes, you can be banned.

That guy must have been fething slowed, why would you even THINK of doing that? It's like going to a Starcraft tournament with a cracked version of the game.

I don't think its much like that. Some people own the books and just want to be able to jump to what they need more quickly. Its practical and pragmatic if you own the books and unethical if you don't.

I'm pretty sure he didnt. And he wasn't experienced (like a 10 year old). Also, you don't just blatantly walk out the shop with it, and pretend its yours.

I have scans of my sisters white dwarfs. Printed and page protectors. I find it silly that I have to bring my actual mags with me just to prove I have a white dwarf that's out of print. But I still do anyway to avoid confrontation. Had mine stolen before. So thats why I use My copies

 conker249 wrote:
I have scans of my sisters white dwarfs. Printed and page protectors. I find it silly that I have to bring my actual mags with me just to prove I have a white dwarf that's out of print. But I still do anyway to avoid confrontation. Had mine stolen before. So thats why I use My copies

I'm the same way with codexs. I just print pdfs and put them in binders. It's nice to have a single binder that contains all the space marines.

The day the Daemons came out for 40k I just asked the shop owner if I could take the store copy next door and make photo copies.

He said sure, so I copied the entire book. I had to chop it up and rearrange all the info to make the codex 4 pages long.

Then I gave the codex back to the store owner along with money for the codex. Next week I went in and grabbed by real copy off the shelf.

i like printing and binders because i also put the FAQ for that race and the Rulebook faq as well. and races for all my friends armies too.

 snooggums wrote:

 Akaiyou wrote:

While playing a game between me and a friend who was playing Necrons fielding Nemesor but using the Stormlord model, I said to my friend "dude get Nemesor already stop proxying the stormlord I was getting confused already'

[As a side note this was the second game my friend does that proxy. In our previous game he proxied a bunch of heavy destroyers without arms, so today i gave him 4 heavy destroyer arms free to help]

...

In this game i had 1 such model was a Grey Knight terminator that was missing his psycannon because I still haven't bought the extra bit for it and do not want a psilencer/etc. However my argument is that plenty people at the store play with armless models as well, and as long as I let the opponent know that 'hey that dude missing the arm is carrying a psycannon' everything should be fine because in the end it's the same model hard to get confused, where as someone proxying an entirely different model is way more confusing, specially when they don't even point out that 'hey this dude is a different dude'

I'm sorry, remembering a single model is 'X' is harder than remembering a model missing an arm is carrying 'Y'? I think the reason you had a negative reaction from the store owner had a lot more to do with your attitude than any specific actions you described in your story.

I fully agree with snooggums. Humans tend to over look issues when they are been compared side by side in plain writing, or on forums.
Yet,we really should take into account of hypocrisy. Because for everything you complain about, Akayiou, which you also do so yourself,
it'll come back to you 2folds. Because the audacity + justice and punishment.

That and as others have said, they allow you to game not completely out of kindness, but your table acts as a display for other customers to see.
I can imagine the manager has already been irked by your unpainted armies.

The only thing you should do is, bring the friend you mentioned, apologize to him, and apologize to the manager at the same time,
and never complain again.

Have you considered this?

You weren't banned for a specific reason. It is simply you create a poor atmosphere and don't make up for this by spending enough money.

Okay, I just read all four pages up to this point, and I am really confused.

How can you have two people who AGREE on something get into such a heated altercation, that one of the two of them is banned from the store?

This makes absolutely no sense. None, whatsoever.

It must take a really dedicated TFG personality type for two people to agree their way into a fight like this.

Anyways, we have two small FLGSs in my small community. The one is the "main" place that has a spot downtown. The other is the "other" gaming place over by the interstate that is comprised mostly of people who have been banned from the main place. In this case, the guy who runs the "main" place is so bat-poop crazy (he once, I kid you not, accused me of being a spy for the other place, and trying to get his players to go there instead) that the "other" store exists for people who weren't TFG enough to be able to withstand the owner of the "main" place.

My point is that when there is a conflict like this, eventually the store will begin to self-segregate, either becoming mostly TFGs or mostly non-TFGs. Either the manager is the awful person, and you're a saint, and you're going to start going to a new gaming store (or starting a new gaming group) that's full of nice people, or you're the TFG, and you're getting expelled from the group so that the store can be a safe place for nice people to play.

Given that this whole thing started by you making a snide comment to another player for doing something you yourself do... well... I can guess which of those two scenarios is more likely.

If you do find a new place and get into trouble there, or you find that, mysteriously, nobody's willing to start a gaming group with you, then perhaps you need to break out the incense and spend a few hours meditating on why nobody gets along with you.

Legally, they can ban you for anything, even if they just don't like you.

Realistically, there's going to be company policies. You can probably ask customer service what the policy is. It's probably going to be anything that could cause other people not to spend money in the store.

If he got on you for proxying models and singled you out, then you should report him to customer service. Don't try and negotiate. Yes, he will take it personally, but he'll realize he can't push you around. There are some GW employees who will try to bully you into spending more money, usually by not letting you get away with as much or just harassing you about proxies because you don't spend the money to buy all the proper models.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
It's their store, they can do whatever they like.

^ this.

Hrmm, having never been banned from a store, I cannot speak from experience. However, having seen people banned from a store, I've found that they've usually been warned multiple times about their behaviour.

Personally I'd rather play with or against unpainted models than with or against poorly painted models... Unfortunately most people love to paint their expensive models horribly. But neither I nor GW has the right to say that it's wrong.

If this was a GW store I'd inform GW that they have a manager who is banning people for playing with unpainted armies. I would think you'd get their attention. GW loves business and hates bad PR.
Managers should not be getting belligerent with customers. Period. You didn't even ask for his input.

I agree with the manager on all counts.

Especially since I sincerely doubt we're getting the full story.

 Archonate wrote:
GW loves business and hates bad PR.
.

Proof read please.

First off report him that is poor customer service being a CS manager my self he should know to never but in on a customers conversation like that very unprofessional. However he does have the rite to ask you to not return to the premises. You did nothing wrong here he lit the fire when he butted in on your conversation I would find a new place to play. Also as I said before call GW and complain no one should have to shop or even play with that kind of DB running a store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
Really I'm not sure why you even would have continued. Why fed his fire? After his first comment you should have just gone "Yea I guess I'm in no position to talk....back to the shooting phase" and moved on. It's that simple, you can defuse many situations by just...moving on. Now everyone has their panties in a tiffy for no good reason.

point is the Store Manager should have never put in his 2 cents to begin with. Keep in mind this is a GW store and he represents GW if it was a FLGS he can do what he wants, but even though he's running the store he doesn't own the store. So he should have acted professionally and not said anything and the whole situation would have never happened. Customer = Innocent .... Manager = Guilty in this situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Akaiyou wrote:


Any how the store manager butts in at my comment and starts ranting about how I shouldn't be one to talk as I some times proxy models without arms and my armies all look like crap because I don't paint.

For any who want to question my view point. That phrase that I made bold is all I needed.

Considering we don't know both sides of the story we can't say for definite who is in the wrong, the original question was 'can someone be banned from a GW store?' The answer is yes, and for not very much reason at all.

I suspect there's more to the story than we're being told, since we're only hearing one side

I play Greys at my local GW store, but the manager doesn't complain because he knows I am a painter of single models to a high level, not an army painter.

At least prime them, get some leadbelcher or like, dry brush them, and put blue on the eyes and a few touches of gold. It would take very little time to do that just to have a "street legal" painted army.

Sounds like there might be history here. Rarely seen people thrown out of stores for so little. Realistically, he should have had the discussion off to the side or on a break with you in private. It's more respectful and the more mature way of doing it (on both parts).

Sounds crappy, hope you can iron things out.