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 Manchu wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Anyone that knows me on this forum knows I am all about taking action against injustices as I see them...

To me, this is why your comments here seem not only wrong but also bizarre.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
She should have complained.

She should have complained to the organisers and had the guy thrown out. She should not have written long blogs about it after the event and talked about how horrible it all was without something very very obvious included in the commentary. She should have expected it, if she didn't, she must be very stupid.

I think expectations are important here: do we expect people at cons to behave this way? If not, what should we do about it? I think we should make it clear that this is not okay no matter how she dresses. And we need to understand that by heaping scorn on her, bending over backwards to find fault where none exists, we are undermining that message.

I was once shouted at for holding the door open for a woman, she called me a sexist pig.

I also taught a woman at an adult education center, who fled her married home because her husband broke her bones, he would bind her with rubber hose and throw her under the stairs. locked in a cupboard, whilst he went out to the pub to sell coke, because he thought she was a slut and would sleep around without him there to keep an eye on her, he burnt her arm with a cigarette if he thought she was lying to him.

There is a sliding scale of sexism and abusive behaviour of men towards women. I feel this falls into the lower end of 'bad things men do to women', this beautiful young woman being insulted by clumsy nerd's overt rude comment should be looked at, muttered about and then moved on. As I said, it's getting rarer and rarer and these sexist, incompetent people are being sidelined now as the events open up and change their attendance dynamic.

I fail to see why this girl was so shocked and horrified at some unpleasant comments towards her at a place where she was more likely to meet men with lower social skills and (obviously because she was wearing a costume that epitomizes it) a tradition of female objectification. It makes me leery of her outrage.

She should not have been spoken to like that. And yet, I can't help feeling that if she's going to go to a place like that showing that much skin, she should ensure it's thick enough.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
Does society not put standards on how we dress? If I wore a velour jumpsuit to a job interview, is it the fault of the interviewer to disregard me? If you see someone dressed like a bum do you not think "hey he might be a bum!" If its fine in society to judge people on how they dress in certain situations, how is wrong in other situations then?

It's a matter of the dress being appropriate to the situation, really.

Dressing like a comic book character to attend a comic book convention seems to fit within the bounds of acceptability, so long as it also follows reasonable (for the locale) standards of decency.

If I walked into a gay bar with skintight leather pants and a sequined shirt, could I really be mad if the guys there thought I was gay? Could I show outrage for them hitting on me? After all I'm just dressing a certain way. Who are they to assume that Im a certain way? Oh right, how Im dressed.

Completely different issue.

What was being complained about in the original article wasn't just guys 'hitting on her'... it was guys acting in a completely inappropriate manner to the way she was dressed. In your example, certainly it's reasonable that the guys in the bar might hit on you... but would be less acceptable for one of them to just walk up and ask about the size of your package.

 Mannahnin wrote:
But we're not just talking about view, but treatment and behavior. The potential employer would be within their rights to disregard you, but not to harass or abuse you because of your outfit.

And again nobody said she SHOULD have been abused. But just like I shouldn't be surprised my velour suit didnt land me a job, she shouldnt be surprised her provocative dress could provoke a response.

I am now going to do you all a favor and cut through the crap that has piled up in this thread:

All people, no matter what they wear, how they act, or indeed for any reason, deserve and have a right to basic human dignity and *gasp* respect. The interviewer, quiet frankly, violated this woman's right to those things. Sticking his @ss in her face and telling her to spank him, in front of a large audience, and then proceeding to continue with the overtly sexual overtones in the interview? Quiet frankly, that's just gross and unacceptable. I don't care what she was wearing; she still has a right to respect, and the interviewer clearly violated it. He should have had the basic sense and social skills to realize that (1) he was making her uncomfortable, (2) he should stop doing so, and (3) he shouldn't have even made sexual overtones to her in the first place.

All people deserve respect.

_Tim?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
There is a sliding scale of sexism and abusive behaviour of men towards women. I feel this falls into the lower end of 'bad things men do to women', this beautiful young woman being insulted by clumsy nerd's overt rude comment should be looked at, muttered about and then moved on.

MGS, it's not a zero-sum game. This woman speaking doesn't prevent others in worse situations from also speaking. Quite the contrary, the ability to speak openly and receive support on relatively less serious matters creates a real expectation in society that there can also be an ability to speak on more serious ones.

 insaniak wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
And if she came crying to me I'd say deal with. If you dress provocativly, you are going to attract unsavory individuals.

And that will continue to happen so long as people just shrug and say 'Well, it's your own fault for dressing provocatively...'

Being socially inept doesn't make unacceptable behaviour any less unnaceptable.

Women shouldn't have to fear being treated badly just because they choose to dress in sexy clothes... and if more people derided the socially unacceptable behaviour of those who react inappropriately to it rather than blaming the woman for dressing that way, they wouldn't have to. If a woman is comfortable enough with herself to dress in a chainmail bikini, good for her. It's not unreasonable for her to expect, in this day and age, that the men around her will behave like adults.

Appreciation is fine. Behaving like a neanderthal is not.

What if people say "its your fault for not punching him in the baby maker?"

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
All people deserve respect.

But sexy women should expect not to get it. They should be prepared to be disrespected. That is the other side of the debate ITT.

 Manchu wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
but be prepared for it

That comment doesn't have a place in the analysis. It's immaterial. It's not that she should be prepared but rather she shouldn't have to expect this, she shouldn't have to deal with it actually happening, and she certainly have to defend that this is offensive and intolerable. At best, "be prepared" is extraneous. At worst, it is in effect a half-assed apology for bad behavior.

Living day to day entirely by the notion that 'only the things that I should expect fairly' are going to happen to you is a wonderful dream.

Going about your life with a thought towards unfair things happening will probably enable you to deal with them when they do, because they will.

It's like you want to argue about the morality of the issue in a vacuum without external consideration like the likelihood of the incident, the severity of the incident in comparison to other issues, the contributing factors etc, just 'was it right or wrong and if it was wrong, why aren't you as indignant as I?'

For me, it was wrong, but it's a really tiny little pisspot of a problem that a beautiful woman wants to put in her online diary, hopefully just to vent and not as my cynical side is saying, to elicit attention and adoration and publicity.

 Mannahnin wrote:
She has the ability and the right to call jerks on being jerks.

We should expect better of guys. You and I hold ourselves to a better standard than the tools she encountered, and there is no reason that we should not hold men in general to a higher standard than a few sexist, malajusted tools.

She told him he was a jackass and walked out of the interview, thus refusing to participate in his jackassery even if it would get her on TV or wherever he was going to distribute the interview.

 insaniak wrote:

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
Does society not put standards on how we dress? If I wore a velour jumpsuit to a job interview, is it the fault of the interviewer to disregard me? If you see someone dressed like a bum do you not think "hey he might be a bum!" If its fine in society to judge people on how they dress in certain situations, how is wrong in other situations then?

It's a matter of the dress being appropriate to the situation, really.

Dressing like a comic book character to attend a comic book convention seems to fit within the bounds of acceptability, so long as it also follows reasonable (for the locale) standards of decency.

If I walked into a gay bar with skintight leather pants and a sequined shirt, could I really be mad if the guys there thought I was gay? Could I show outrage for them hitting on me? After all I'm just dressing a certain way. Who are they to assume that Im a certain way? Oh right, how Im dressed.

Completely different issue.

What was being complained about in the original article wasn't just guys 'hitting on her'... it was guys acting in a completely inappropriate manner to the way she was dressed. In your example, certainly it's reasonable that the guys in the bar might hit on you... but would be less acceptable for one of them to just walk up and ask about the size of your package.

But can I really be indignant that they asked about said size? Has nobody thought that not every man is Don Juan? That some think that being that forward is actually a good move? Clearly its not but she wasnt groped, she wasnt touched, she had guys with bad skills at picking up women say dumb things to her. And then posts a faux outrage article and garners a bunch of hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
All people deserve respect.

But sexy women should expect not to get it. They should be prepared to be disrespected. That is the other side of the debate ITT.

Do you expect to be respected by every single person you meet? How do you react when your not? Show me this perfect world where everyone is always respected?

And I can guarantee you ugly chicks get a lot less respect than this girl. She should consider herself lucky if having idiots fawn over her is the most disrespectful thing she deals with.

Screw faux outrage. She tolerated a little bit of the jackassery, told him to knock it off, but he persisted.

She walked out of the interview, and talked about it in part because she found it unusual and offensive, and reports that her normal experience at cons is that guys are more respectful than those idiots.

Fifty bucks says that if she was overweight and had guys saying these things nobody would be defending her and this story would never happen. Pretty women have it a lot easier than their ugly counterparts. If rude comments are the worst they deal with, so be it. Life is a lot tougher than gakky pick up lines.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Screw faux outrage. She tolerated a little bit of the jackassery, told him to knock it off, but he persisted.

She walked out of the interview, and talked about it in part because she found it unusual and offensive, and reports that her normal experience at cons is that guys are more respectful than those idiots.

meh my funmeter is low. I want a nerd beatdown on the local news. Now that would be entertaining.

 Manchu wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
All people deserve respect.

But sexy women should expect not to get it. They should be prepared to be disrespected. That is the other side of the debate ITT.

Everyone on the face of the earth should be prepared to deal with the fact that they will meet people they find odious.

Black people should be prepared to meet racist white people, they shouldn't have to in an ideal world, but this world is not ideal, we can only work to make it better by not being the racist or the misogynist or the bigot.

Chance favors only the prepared mind

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
But can I really be indignant that they asked about said size?

If someone behaves inappropriately towards you, yes, of course you're entitled to be offended by it.

Clearly its not but she wasnt groped, she wasnt touched, she had guys with bad skills at picking up women say dumb things to her. And then posts a faux outrage article and garners a bunch of hits.

Making someone uncomfortable doesn't always require laying your hands on them. If I were female, I would imagine that being surrounded by a pack of guys who are busy getting themselves all worked up over my anatomy could quite conceivably be a bit of a worrying situation to be in.

This is way beyond just a casual 'Show us your tits'... This is a whole bunch of people carrying on like animals. She has every reason to be offended by it, and would have had every reason to be more than a little intimidated by it at the time, and quite frankly I think it's far better that she went home and posted about her outrage than that she just slunk out in embarrassment and vowed to never return, which would have been the far more likely outcome of this sort of situation where a lot of women are concerned.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Screw faux outrage. She tolerated a little bit of the jackassery, told him to knock it off, but he persisted.

She walked out of the interview, and talked about it in part because she found it unusual and offensive, and reports that her normal experience at cons is that guys are more respectful than those idiots.

So one lukewarm experience out of all good ones is worthy of a news story that just happens to link her webpage?

No, one creepy and offensive experience is worth pointing out and shaming, because we can and she does expect better.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Living day to day entirely by the notion that 'only the things that I should expect fairly' are going to happen to you is a wonderful dream.

That's totally off topic.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
Do you expect to be respected by every single person you meet? How do you react when your not? Show me this perfect world where everyone is always respected?

This is a bit closer: what I expect is to not be sexually harassed by anyone. And if someone sexually harasses me or anyone, I expect that they will be the ones criticized rather than me or any other of their victims.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
She should consider herself lucky if having idiots fawn over her is the most disrespectful thing she deals with.

That's repugnant. There is no part of this incident that she should consider herself lucky about. That's just a gross comment.

Lets be honest, on a sexual harassment scale of 1 to 10 this is like a 1.2

And she could very easily consider herself lucky enough to be considered beautiful.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
And she could very easily consider herself lucky enough to be considered beautiful.

Whether or not she's beautiful to anyone has exactly NOTHING to do with her needing to expect being sexually harassed.

I mean, I get what MGS is saying to some extent: people shouldn't purposefully put themselves in danger, is how I'd put it. I have a problem, however, when we reverse it to say, if a woman is sexually harassed, well she should have expected it. I don't think it means anything except inasmuch as it's an apology for bad behavior.

Lemonade from lemons I guess.

I personally feel good whenever I get hit on, no matter how bad it is so I guess I look at it different.

 Manchu wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Living day to day entirely by the notion that 'only the things that I should expect fairly' are going to happen to you is a wonderful dream.

That's totally off topic..

No it isn't.

I had suggested that being prepared to meet hostile people in your life can be regarded as an expectation, you dismissed that out of hand and are doing it again here.

You're wrong.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Living day to day entirely by the notion that 'only the things that I should expect fairly' are going to happen to you is a wonderful dream.

That's totally off topic..

No it isn't.

I had suggested that being prepared to meet hostile people in your life can be regarded as an expectation, you dismissed that out of hand and are doing it again here.

You're wrong.

Dude, apply what you are saying to the actual facts at hand.

Woman is sexually harassed.

MGS says she should have been prepared for it.

You're not coming off as a gentleman on that note.

That's a false equivalence, MGS. Meeting hostile people vs. being actively and persistly harassed, even when you tell them to stop, are two distinctly different things.

There is no reason to tolerate harassment or excuse it.

 Manchu wrote:


I mean, I get what MGS is saying to some extent: people shouldn't purposefully put themselves in danger, is how I'd put it. I have a problem, however, when we reverse it to say, if a woman is sexually harassed, well she should have expected it. I don't think it means anything except inasmuch as it's an apologize for bad behavior.

You are misrepresenting what I'm saying.

It's unfortunately not that simple. What i'm saying is that it's a measure of risk, it's about how your conduct your actions and increase or diminish your chances of things happening. I most certainly did not say that women should expect to be sexually harassed, what I said is that conduct can contribute to things happening. Going to a comic convention in a risque costume most certainly increases your chances of things like that happening, like walking into a biker bar with a bra and mini skirt might also and that it's naive to assume it won't happen because it 'shouldn't happen'.

She went to a comic book convention dressed as Black Cat. Nothing about that scenario should make her worried about being sexually harassed. To insist over and over and over again that she should be prepared, have an expectation, basically be afraid, is talking about the WRONG issue.

But that doesn't in any way excuse the conduct of jerks.

And if she reports that in her experience, behavior like this is extraordinary and unusual, then that's a good comment that most guys are more respectful than that.

 Manchu wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Living day to day entirely by the notion that 'only the things that I should expect fairly' are going to happen to you is a wonderful dream.

That's totally off topic..

No it isn't.

I had suggested that being prepared to meet hostile people in your life can be regarded as an expectation, you dismissed that out of hand and are doing it again here.

You're wrong.

Dude, apply what you are saying to the actual facts at hand.

Woman is sexually harassed.

MGS says she should have been prepared for it.

You're not coming off as a gentleman on that note.

She should be prepared to encounter men who behave in a bad way.

If I go out drinking at the pub, I prepare myself for the chance that I may be subjected to hostile behaviour by someone who has had too much to drink. That's not about empowering that guy being an donkey-cave, that's about me understanding that sometimes drunk people become hostile and I may become the target. I don't endorse it, I just recognise that it happens and prepare myself to respond to it.

 Mannahnin wrote:
That's a false equivalence, MGS. Meeting hostile people vs. being actively and persistly harassed, even when you tell them to stop, are two distinctly different things.

There is no reason to tolerate harassment or excuse it.

Actively and persistently harassed? You make it seem like they chased her around the con screaming at her. They asked some dumb questions. I wonder how many of us have "harassed" women at a bar with gakky pick up lines? Or not got the hint from a woman before?

Does anyone think that a similar situation at a Twilight or somesuch con and a Rob Pattinson cos-player wouldn't happen? That a group of female nerds wouldnt do the same with a good looking guy?






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mannahnin wrote:
But that doesn't in any way excuse the conduct of jerks.

And if she reports that in her experience, behavior like this is extraordinary and unusual, then that's a good comment that most guys are more respectful than that.

But again, if most experiences are great, and this ONE thing was questionable, why is it news?

Also will probably get flamed for this, but has anyone seen the video of the interview? Does anyone even know if her allegations are true? Sure she says she was harassed and having been at cons I can fully see it happening, but is there any evidence of this?