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 CDK wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread to be honest. But I am a long time comic fan and thought I'd share my thoughts.

To me it comes down to "Dress how you want to be treated". Inappropriate behavior is GOING to happen. In fact, expect it to happen. So, dress like a whore = get treated like a whore. Some guys will not do it but some will. Expect it to happen though. Don't be shocked by it when you know perfectly well guys are going to look at your chest rather than anything else. Is it right behavior? No of course not. But society has not changed much over the years and it's not going to change soon. If you really don't want the attention or comments that maybe you should dress up as a character from "Little House on the Prairie."

Then you should, really should, go back and read the thread. All of it.

I could only get through about a quarter of it before my eyes started to bleed!

mattyrm wrote:I cant believe we have got 15 pages in and its still raging!

Listen, having to listen to gak pick up lines and a gak "slap my ass" doesn't mean you have been served a terrible injustice. Some fat chav put her hand on my knee and told me she wanted to sit on my face in a club, I told her to bugger off, end of discussion.

The more I read about this fething chick the more ridiculous she sounds, she is all over the bastard place! You dress up because you want people to look at you in the first place, and she seems to be a ridiculous narcissist with a me complex even more than most girls who dress skimpy and go to conventions.

Yes the bloke was a fat loser with the charm of a rottweiler, but this fething chick is pissing me off the more I read about her.

Boo hoo, someone was a bit rude. If some guy jammed his fist up her skirt she might have a genuine grievance, but as it stands its absolute nonsense, and the very fact that we are even discussing it is now annoying me, because she fething loves it.

In short, blame the piss-ant whiny victim for not just telling him to feth off and leaving it at that.

Matty, she was sat down and asked about her cup size. Upon refusing to answer, the surrounding audience was asked to guess in what can only be described as the world's most misogynist game of The Price is Right. What if you were sat down for an interview under the pretense of your costume or uniform, and then asked about the size of your penis? And then, upon failing to answer, the surrounding audience was asked to guess its girth? And don't brush this off with a clever quip about whipping it out. Just consider the situation.

Ratbarf wrote:As an aside, does anyone else find it rather amusing that this thread seems to almost be The Mods vs the rest of Dakka?

No, I don't find it funny at all. I find it kinda depressing, actually. Fortunately, "the rest of Dakka" is a gross exaggeration.

AustonT wrote:I may hire this guy to write for me. I should have just posted it's entirety but I'm perfectly happy to paraphrase it to answer your ridiculous white knighting.

When a woman appears at primarily male gathering dressed as an intentional male masturbatory graphic fantasy figure, she is viewed as what she is not only portraying, but bringing to life, and some individuals go further, and actually treat her accordingly. Do you expect anyone to believe that you appear as a credible avatar of Black Cat so that so people won’t ogle you? The character you are playing is dressed like that in her natural surroundings—comic books—so young men will ogle her, you know, and think exactly the same thoughts that some of them spoke to you. She’s not dressed like that because a skin-tight, cleavage-flashing suit is really an asset in hand-to-hand combat

This is partially correct; most female comic-book costumes are designed with "fan service" in mind. However, the woman in question is not dressed up for battle; she is dressed up as an homage to a character she obviously likes, albeit for personality or aesthetic. And anyone that thinks they will not get attention is naive and bordering on stupid. But there is a difference between dozens of men asking for pictures, and asking inappropriate questions about her cup size before sending the question to the audience to guess. It is very easy to ask for a photo without being disrespectful; it happens to my S/O about 200-300 times a day at every comic-con. But what you are doing is saying that someone is asking to be treated disrespectfully because they are wearing a costume.

And, just to derail things here: sometimes a skin-tight, cleavage-flashing suit is an asset to hand-to-hand combat:

Ogle away, AustonT.

I doubt anyone wants to see THAT kind of cleavage

Hey some guys are into that sort of thing

And women too I guess.

 Manchu wrote:
No, it's you making a delusional argument contrary to reason and dignity.

Yeah bro. Bears and honey = rape and IM delusional. You keep wailing about this incident like it happened in a vacuum. It did not. There's a delusional poster here: take a look in the mirror.

 CDK wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread to be honest. But I am a long time comic fan and thought I'd share my thoughts.

To me it comes down to "Dress how you want to be treated". Inappropriate behavior is GOING to happen. In fact, expect it to happen. So, dress like a whore = get treated like a whore. Some guys will not do it but some will. Expect it to happen though. Don't be shocked by it when you know perfectly well guys are going to look at your chest rather than anything else. Is it right behavior? No of course not. But society has not changed much over the years and it's not going to change soon. If you really don't want the attention or comments that maybe you should dress up as a character from "Little House on the Prairie."

I was not aware that comic book female heroines are whores.

 azazel the cat wrote:

AustonT wrote:I may hire this guy to write for me. I should have just posted it's entirety but I'm perfectly happy to paraphrase it to answer your ridiculous white knighting.

When a woman appears at primarily male gathering dressed as an intentional male masturbatory graphic fantasy figure, she is viewed as what she is not only portraying, but bringing to life, and some individuals go further, and actually treat her accordingly. Do you expect anyone to believe that you appear as a credible avatar of Black Cat so that so people won’t ogle you? The character you are playing is dressed like that in her natural surroundings—comic books—so young men will ogle her, you know, and think exactly the same thoughts that some of them spoke to you. She’s not dressed like that because a skin-tight, cleavage-flashing suit is really an asset in hand-to-hand combat

This is partially correct; most female comic-book costumes are designed with "fan service" in mind. However, the woman in question is not dressed up for battle; she is dressed up as an homage to a character she obviously likes, albeit for personality or aesthetic. And anyone that thinks they will not get attention is naive and bordering on stupid. But there is a difference between dozens of men asking for pictures, and asking inappropriate questions about her cup size before sending the question to the audience to guess. It is very easy to ask for a photo without being disrespectful; it happens to my S/O about 200-300 times a day at every comic-con. But what you are doing is saying that someone is asking to be treated disrespectfully because they are wearing a costume.

And, just to derail things here: sometimes a skin-tight, cleavage-flashing suit is an asset to hand-to-hand combat:

Spoiler:

Ogle away, AustonT.

It tries again.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 CDK wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread to be honest. But I am a long time comic fan and thought I'd share my thoughts.

To me it comes down to "Dress how you want to be treated". Inappropriate behavior is GOING to happen. In fact, expect it to happen. So, dress like a whore = get treated like a whore. Some guys will not do it but some will. Expect it to happen though. Don't be shocked by it when you know perfectly well guys are going to look at your chest rather than anything else. Is it right behavior? No of course not. But society has not changed much over the years and it's not going to change soon. If you really don't want the attention or comments that maybe you should dress up as a character from "Little House on the Prairie."

I was not aware that comic book female heroines are whores.

No, but many of them dress like one. Or at least like a Stripper.

Well then, this thread got bigger than I thought it would.

Expected a few sex jokes, few pictures and some respect women comments.

I love you dakka dakka

Furthermore: I can't speak to the character of the Black Cat, because I can't be bothered to read the 8 monthly issues of Spider-Man comics that have come out for the last fifteen years. So I'll use Catwoman as my example, because I am more familiar with the character. Here's a reference, for those who have lived in a cave for a long time:

Now, the costume is nearly identical to that of Black Cat, so I think that will serve for comparison. Catwoman makes no excuses about her sexuality. This is more represented in personality, but is still not exactly hidden in her costume. However, I do not believe that anyone would fall the character something other than a feminist character, and I make that claim insofar as an operating definition of feminism is for women to "own" their own sexuality, and be otherwise just as capable as their male counterparts (Granted, nobody is as capable as Batman, because he's the Goddamned Batman. But you know what I mean). Catwoman represents this in that she is an independent woman that utilizes her own sexuality not as a submissive character, but how she herself chooses to do so. This is demonstrated in both her being written as a classic femme fatale character, and in her utilizing her sexuality as a tool or skill, often to the success of her criminal activities. Again: she is the one in control of her sexuality.

So please, let's refrain from the blanket statements of "the costume is sexy so it's objectifying to women". That statement in itself is misogynist, as it assumes that a woman can only be a strong character if she hides her own female identity and sexuality, going so far as to act like a man rather than a woman.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 CDK wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread to be honest. But I am a long time comic fan and thought I'd share my thoughts.

To me it comes down to "Dress how you want to be treated". Inappropriate behavior is GOING to happen. In fact, expect it to happen. So, dress like a whore = get treated like a whore. Some guys will not do it but some will. Expect it to happen though. Don't be shocked by it when you know perfectly well guys are going to look at your chest rather than anything else. Is it right behavior? No of course not. But society has not changed much over the years and it's not going to change soon. If you really don't want the attention or comments that maybe you should dress up as a character from "Little House on the Prairie."

I was not aware that comic book female heroines are whores.

No, but many of them dress like one. Or at least like a Stripper.

Is it fair therefore to suppose that CDK's argument is that the woman was dressed as a whore, not as a comic book character, and therefore the men were entitled to treat her as a whore.

(There is a separate argument about how whores are entitled to be treated, of course.)

@AustonT: Yeah, I was gonna use a picture of Carano, but I decided to use GSP instead for the lulz. Anyway, I'd love to hear what you have to say about the point I was making.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 CDK wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread to be honest. But I am a long time comic fan and thought I'd share my thoughts.

To me it comes down to "Dress how you want to be treated". Inappropriate behavior is GOING to happen. In fact, expect it to happen. So, dress like a whore = get treated like a whore. Some guys will not do it but some will. Expect it to happen though. Don't be shocked by it when you know perfectly well guys are going to look at your chest rather than anything else. Is it right behavior? No of course not. But society has not changed much over the years and it's not going to change soon. If you really don't want the attention or comments that maybe you should dress up as a character from "Little House on the Prairie."

I was not aware that comic book female heroines are whores.

No, but many of them dress like one. Or at least like a Stripper.

Is it fair therefore to suppose that CDK's argument is that the woman was dressed as a whore, not as a comic book character, and therefore the men were entitled to treat her as a whore.

(There is a separate argument about how whores are entitled to be treated, of course.)

Then that is doubly wrong, as the woman in question was not dressed as a whore; she was dressed as the Black Cat, ipso facto.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 CDK wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread to be honest. But I am a long time comic fan and thought I'd share my thoughts.

To me it comes down to "Dress how you want to be treated". Inappropriate behavior is GOING to happen. In fact, expect it to happen. So, dress like a whore = get treated like a whore. Some guys will not do it but some will. Expect it to happen though. Don't be shocked by it when you know perfectly well guys are going to look at your chest rather than anything else. Is it right behavior? No of course not. But society has not changed much over the years and it's not going to change soon. If you really don't want the attention or comments that maybe you should dress up as a character from "Little House on the Prairie."

I was not aware that comic book female heroines are whores.

No, but many of them dress like one. Or at least like a Stripper.

Is it fair therefore to suppose that CDK's argument is that the woman was dressed as a whore, not as a comic book character, and therefore the men were entitled to treat her as a whore.

(There is a separate argument about how whores are entitled to be treated, of course.)

No, nobody ever is entitled to do something bad to anyone.

What we are saying is that she should not have been surprised by their actions. You can be insulted and outraged without being surprised.

The lightbulb should have immediatly lit up saying "O' these guys are dicks. I'll just leave and complain to the Con organizers" not I'll go and complain about it to a national news outlet.


Complaining about it on a national level really just encourages these dipwads. "Look, that girls now crying about what we did on a national news outlet"

She should have discretely complained to the Con organizers, who would have probably banned those guys. Who really just want attention, even negative attention.

By not giving them any attention and simply cutting them off it punishes them far more then getting their faces plastered all over the internet.

 mattyrm wrote:
I cant believe we have got 15 pages in and its still raging!

Listen, having to listen to gak pick up lines and a gak "slap my ass" doesn't mean you have been served a terrible injustice. Some fat chav put her hand on my knee and told me she wanted to sit on my face in a club, I told her to bugger off, end of discussion.

The more I read about this fething chick the more ridiculous she sounds, she is all over the bastard place! You dress up because you want people to look at you in the first place, and she seems to be a ridiculous narcissist with a me complex even more than most girls who dress skimpy and go to conventions.

Yes the bloke was a fat loser with the charm of a rottweiler, but this fething chick is pissing me off the more I read about her.

Boo hoo, someone was a bit rude. If some guy jammed his fist up her skirt she might have a genuine grievance, but as it stands its absolute nonsense, and the very fact that we are even discussing it is now annoying me, because she fething loves it.

In short, blame the piss-ant whiny victim for not just telling him to feth off and leaving it at that.

Thanks mate, that was bloody hilarious. Great post!

Personally I think she should have just kicked the guy in the balls, but I don't have a problem with her instead complaining to a national news outlet.

Why should anyone?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 CDK wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread to be honest. But I am a long time comic fan and thought I'd share my thoughts.

To me it comes down to "Dress how you want to be treated". Inappropriate behavior is GOING to happen. In fact, expect it to happen. So, dress like a whore = get treated like a whore. Some guys will not do it but some will. Expect it to happen though. Don't be shocked by it when you know perfectly well guys are going to look at your chest rather than anything else. Is it right behavior? No of course not. But society has not changed much over the years and it's not going to change soon. If you really don't want the attention or comments that maybe you should dress up as a character from "Little House on the Prairie."

I was not aware that comic book female heroines are whores.

No, but many of them dress like one. Or at least like a Stripper.

Is it fair therefore to suppose that CDK's argument is that the woman was dressed as a whore, not as a comic book character, and therefore the men were entitled to treat her as a whore.

(There is a separate argument about how whores are entitled to be treated, of course.)

No man is ever Entitled to treat someone like that. I'm saying that she had to expect guys to be jerks. It's going to happen anywhere.

In real life maybe they do a look a bit like a whore. I'm no expert on whores. I guess I should have said that if you are going to dress provocative, expect proactive things to happen. Good or bad. None of that would have happened if she had dress as say Spider Woman or Supergirl probably. It's really hard to find a female super-hero that is NOT dress provocative!

 CDK wrote:
. But society has not changed much over the years and it's not going to change soon.

Society has changed a whole hell of a lot of the last couple of decades. As was mentioned before, certain behaviour that was not so long ago considered more or less acceptable, like patting a female co-worker on the butt as she walks past, would these days have you ejected from the workplace and potentially up on assault charges.

Those changes occur when people stand up and say 'No, that's not acceptable'. And the more people who say that, the more mainstream those changes become.

Sure, there will always be some people who don't quite get (or just don't care about) the social niceties. But the more noise that is made about these sorts of incidents, the more people who will take notice. Which is exactly why this incident being plastered all over the internet is just what should have happened. Having the guys quietly ejected from the con might have got the message to them... but putting it up on the internet gets that message out to a much larger group of people.

Obviously, going by this thread, not everyone will be receptive of that message... but some will. And those 'some' will change their perceptions slightly, and society moves that little bit further up the ladder of change.

I do love how that rude comments towards a woman are horrendous and the perpetrators worse than Satan.

But advocating physical violence against someone taught from birth to not fight back is somehow ok?

Women can hit us and we can't even talk back? Whats that type of standard? I know it starts with a number, what is it again? Oh yeah double.

And face it male superhero bodies are just as objectified and unrealistic as the females it just so happens most comic readers are straight males. Read early 90's X-men and tell me anybody's muscles look like that.

Personally I think she should have just kicked the guy in the balls

Seems disproportionate. Fits in with the double standard.

That's actually an interesting expansion from this discussion. Who here wouldn't hit a girl?

I got disabused of the notion of not hitting girls by my first sensei was I was like... eight. She was in her late 50s and a 4th degree black belt. She could wipe the floor with any one in the studio and she looked like your grandmother.

Equal rights means equal fights.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Who here wouldn't hit a girl?

There's only one thing I'd never hit. Kittens. Because that's just plain wrong.

Equal rights means equal fights.

Lets put that on a bumper sticker

I wouldn't. Not because I think its inherently wrong but even if a woman is swinging for the fences with you and your bigger and hit back, your gonna get demonized. I've seen in a bar a girl punch her boyfriend multiple times in the head and when he shoved her off, he got his ass handed to him by the bouncers and her friends, even though he really did nothing wrong.

Unless your in actual danger and shes your size bigger knows how to fight, just try to pin her or wrap her up. Trust me all cops are gonna take her side you dont want any bloody knuckles.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 CDK wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread to be honest. But I am a long time comic fan and thought I'd share my thoughts.

To me it comes down to "Dress how you want to be treated". Inappropriate behavior is GOING to happen. In fact, expect it to happen. So, dress like a whore = get treated like a whore. Some guys will not do it but some will. Expect it to happen though. Don't be shocked by it when you know perfectly well guys are going to look at your chest rather than anything else. Is it right behavior? No of course not. But society has not changed much over the years and it's not going to change soon. If you really don't want the attention or comments that maybe you should dress up as a character from "Little House on the Prairie."

I was not aware that comic book female heroines are whores.

Well, to be fair, Psylocke was when she was first transformed from a British mutant to an Asian ninja mutant-she was mind controlled into being a sex slave. That said, after she broke from her conditioning she continued to wear a revealing, one piece bathing suit type outfit that, depending on the comic, was portrayed as having a thong-style backing. Early Psylocke=British gentlewoman, early transformation=whore/sex-slave, late transformation=still tries to interfere with Cyclops' and Jean's marriage at one point and has portrayed herself as somewhat of a whore if it benefited her. So some comic book heroines can be seen as whores. Black Cat is sultry though, and while VERY flirtatious with Spidey, I haven't seen her do anything more than wear a skintight leather outfit with the zipper low. Current Starfire in The New 52 also used to be a whore. I'm wracking my brain to come up with any other female characters who have been portrayed as whores, and I can't. I think two out of thousands does not make comic book females (or those who dress like them) whores.

Inappropriate behavior will happen by douchebags-I agree. I expect douchebags to be douchebags. I can understand ogling-it's expected from nerds. Fat, disgusting men asking her to spank them or take pictures pointing at her tits and worshipping them are not appropriate. And having a sitdown interview and having the audience guess her size when she is clearly upset is fething ridiculous.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
That's actually an interesting expansion from this discussion. Who here wouldn't hit a girl?

I got disabused of the notion of not hitting girls by my first sensei was I was like... eight. She was in her late 50s and a 4th degree black belt. She could wipe the floor with any one in the studio and she looked like your grandmother.

Equal rights means equal fights.

I would. I would also, while on a night out in Somerset, tell a fat girl who has just rudely stuck her hand into my food "you should lay off the chips fatty"and then after she has punched me in the neck, mash the rest of my cheesy chips into her fat buffalo sized face, and then run all the way back to camp pursued by an angry mob, who didn't notice her initial assault, but soon turned around as she let out an ear piercing shriek when the molten cheese welded itself to her eyebrows.

 mattyrm wrote:

I would. I would also, while on a night out in Somerset, tell a fat girl who has just rudely stuck her hand into my food "you should lay off the chips fatty"and then after she has punched me in the neck, mash the rest of my cheesy chips into her fat buffalo sized face, and then run all the way back to camp pursued by an angry mob, who didn't notice her initial assault, but soon turned around as she let out an ear piercing shriek when the molten cheese welded itself to her eyebrows.

...hypothetically speaking, of course.

DutchKillsRambo wrote:Read early 90's X-men and tell me anybody's muscles look like that.

Don't you drag Rob Liefeld into this! He didn't do anything to you!

Liefeld gave us tiny feet and big guns. He made tiny footed people everywhere feel important.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:That's actually an interesting expansion from this discussion. Who here wouldn't hit a girl?

I generally try to solve my problems without the use of violence.

However, all other options being ruled out? Man, woman or dinosaur, I've got a lead left hook like Frazier. (not much else, though )

 LordofHats wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Changing perceptions and attitudes towards women and their treatment by men have been rapidly ongoing throughout the last century.

The masses define reality, if the masses decide that this is not acceptable, it will become more fringe and frowned upon.

And I'm sure some people thought racism would go away forever 20 or 30 years ago. Yet we still have racists in the world. Some things never go away. We can either accept that that's just the way things are, or spend over a dozen pages on the internet talking about it... Or both...

Are you saying that we should just expect bad things, if we can't 100% magically get rid of them?

You want us to accept racists, because they aren't going away?

What about murderers? There will always be murder. Or rapists? There will always be rape.

Seriously man, that is some weak logic.