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 labmouse42 wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Someone mentioned blob guard being a deathstar ffs. That's genuinely laughable. .

Guard benifit greatly from special rules conferred through allies -- hence why I mentioned multiple ICs.

Take the following, for example.
50 guard
- 5 lascannons
- 5 PG/MGs
- Wolf Priest w/Saga of Hunter
- Rune Priest with divination
- PCS nearby

So you have a squad that has the following special rules
- Outflank
- Rerolling to-hits
- Rerolling to-wounds of a 1
- Stealth
- ATSKNF
In addition the PCS can give orders to the squad, such as FRFSRF.

So lets go over the deathstar criteria.
* Resiliance
Check. 50 models getting a 4+ cover in area terrain or a 3+ cover in ruins makes for a durable squad

* Ability to deal damage
Check. 5 TL LCs gives a good chance to hurt tanks. PGs/LGs give a good chance to hurt infantry. PE

* Ability to effect targets.
Check. Outflanking when required. Being able to effect targets starting turn 2.

The blob does have its counters, but it also handles some things very well.

bbbbbbbbuuuurrrrnnnnnaaaa BOYS!

well the only reason to have anything else in your army is to get rid of or at least stall the Vindicators, and for scoring...i guess

Can death company be a deathstar? How would you fit them, who would you attach? And I assume LR or SR?

 Exergy wrote:
bbbbbbbbuuuurrrrnnnnnaaaa BOYS!

Heck a squad of 9 flamers deep striking is even more deadly to that blob.

You can expect to get 6 templates onto the squad. I've done that before in events and got 32 hits on a squad before on the turn I deep struck.

Of course, even those templates only will kill 16.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Can death company be a deathstar? How would you fit them, who would you attach? And I assume LR or SR?

Didn't somebody say earlier that with deathstars, points cost is not an issue?

...16-man in a Crusader.
Upgrade one to Lemartes.
3x (or is it 2?) Infernus pistol
5x power sword

...
10x double thunder hammers.

For me personally points cost is an issue. I have horrendous luck. I do better with redundant army builds. If i were to put a tricked out DC + chaplain in a Storm raven it would probably crash into a tree killing all occupants. I know its risk vs reward. I currently run 8 DC guys with bolters (1 with PF) in a POD. It has worked well and is cheap enough that I do not feel bad about the attrition they encounter.

My question was more along the lines of "does an aggressive DC build with a chaplain in a LR or SR constitute a deathstar, or are they too squishy?"

Lemartes has a JP, so why put him in a crusader? its 1 special pistol per 5 DC. Thunder hammers are expensive for one, let alone double for all 6 men.

So I've been quiet about my possessed squad but I will offer this. I took 16 with MoK and IoW and double gift. That is 516 points. You can add a MoK lord on a jugg if you like but it is not necessary. It will add even more power to the group.. You will likely lose no more than four getting into cc ( at least that has been my experience). Any cc unit takes a few loses. So even 12 of them get 60 attacks on the charge or 48 counter charges. This is apart from bonuses from D3 rolls and your double gifts. You most certainly can take on terminators as most do not strike first and they have much less attacks and you are saving 1/3 of the wounds. You will lose a few of course as this is not their prime target. The lack of grenades is a small issue. Going against any backfield sqiuad you will take a few casualties and then decimate it. IoW helps ensure you do get the charge. Are they a great deathstar? No. But they sure are fun to field in numbers.

My necron Death Star of 2+ 3++ lords and abyssal crypteks ended up pounding my opponent with out the loss of a single lord. Rez orb super lords are almost impossible to kill and 13 warscythe attacks do not allow many terminators to survive. 6 mind shackle triggers were brutal for my opponent. This Death Star is stupid expensive in points but will destroy anything.

 Dumah12 wrote:
My necron Death Star of 2+ 3++ lords and abyssal crypteks ended up pounding my opponent with out the loss of a single lord. Rez orb super lords are almost impossible to kill and 13 warscythe attacks do not allow many terminators to survive. 6 mind shackle triggers were brutal for my opponent. This Death Star is stupid expensive in points but will destroy anything.

hordes. MSS a few Orks while the rest pile in. For the price of a overtooled newcronstar you can have a ton of boys (90+). First nob declines the challenge so MSS procs on regular boys, nobs come in at the end to add in their attacks. Sure they have trouble wounding and getting past the save but with 270 attacks on the charge some will get through.

 Exergy wrote:

 Dumah12 wrote:
My necron Death Star of 2+ 3++ lords and abyssal crypteks ended up pounding my opponent with out the loss of a single lord. Rez orb super lords are almost impossible to kill and 13 warscythe attacks do not allow many terminators to survive. 6 mind shackle triggers were brutal for my opponent. This Death Star is stupid expensive in points but will destroy anything.

hordes. MSS a few Orks while the rest pile in. For the price of a overtooled newcronstar you can have a ton of boys (90+). First nob declines the challenge so MSS procs on regular boys, nobs come in at the end to add in their attacks. Sure they have trouble wounding and getting past the save but with 270 attacks on the charge some will get through.

270 attacks, if they didn't charge, hitting on 4s, wounding on 6s, 2+ save, 4+ stand back up.

90+ orks won't be all in range for B2B to attack.

It'd tarpit them, at most. 6 MSS would mean 6~18 attacks back on the squad that has T-Shirt saves. That will also cull the herd every turn.

It's a gross unit.

TheKbob wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Dumah12 wrote:
My necron Death Star of 2+ 3++ lords and abyssal crypteks ended up pounding my opponent with out the loss of a single lord. Rez orb super lords are almost impossible to kill and 13 warscythe attacks do not allow many terminators to survive. 6 mind shackle triggers were brutal for my opponent. This Death Star is stupid expensive in points but will destroy anything.

hordes. MSS a few Orks while the rest pile in. For the price of a overtooled newcronstar you can have a ton of boys (90+). First nob declines the challenge so MSS procs on regular boys, nobs come in at the end to add in their attacks. Sure they have trouble wounding and getting past the save but with 270 attacks on the charge some will get through.

270 attacks, if they didn't charge, hitting on 4s, wounding on 6s, 2+ save, 4+ stand back up.

90+ orks won't be all in range for B2B to attack.

It'd tarpit them, at most. 6 MSS would mean 6~18 attacks back on the squad that has T-Shirt saves. That will also cull the herd every turn.

It's a gross unit.

sure they wont all get in BTB, but the first squad will tarpit them and then in following turns additional squads can charge in. They will never get out of the tarpit and when chargin the orks have +1 attack and strength meaning twice the wounds. Also if the nobz dont get MSS you are hoping the klaws get saves by the 3++ which they wont always. Also with 6 MSS, 3 will be passed by Ld 10, so that is average 6 hits. When charging that is 3 wounds, when not it is only 2 wounds. Even with the 2+ and the 4+ get back up, some of the lords will fall and with 11 crons vs 93 orks the attrition game will hurt the crons far worse than the orks.

Add trazyzn to the necron party and we have 45 plus dead orks haha. But still 90+ boys thrown at one squad the rest of my army will wreck the rest of the field.

 Exergy wrote:

TheKbob wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Dumah12 wrote:
My necron Death Star of 2+ 3++ lords and abyssal crypteks ended up pounding my opponent with out the loss of a single lord. Rez orb super lords are almost impossible to kill and 13 warscythe attacks do not allow many terminators to survive. 6 mind shackle triggers were brutal for my opponent. This Death Star is stupid expensive in points but will destroy anything.

hordes. MSS a few Orks while the rest pile in. For the price of a overtooled newcronstar you can have a ton of boys (90+). First nob declines the challenge so MSS procs on regular boys, nobs come in at the end to add in their attacks. Sure they have trouble wounding and getting past the save but with 270 attacks on the charge some will get through.

270 attacks, if they didn't charge, hitting on 4s, wounding on 6s, 2+ save, 4+ stand back up.

90+ orks won't be all in range for B2B to attack.

It'd tarpit them, at most. 6 MSS would mean 6~18 attacks back on the squad that has T-Shirt saves. That will also cull the herd every turn.

It's a gross unit.

sure they wont all get in BTB, but the first squad will tarpit them and then in following turns additional squads can charge in. They will never get out of the tarpit and when chargin the orks have +1 attack and strength meaning twice the wounds. Also if the nobz dont get MSS you are hoping the klaws get saves by the 3++ which they wont always. Also with 6 MSS, 3 will be passed by Ld 10, so that is average 6 hits. When charging that is 3 wounds, when not it is only 2 wounds. Even with the 2+ and the 4+ get back up, some of the lords will fall and with 11 crons vs 93 orks the attrition game will hurt the crons far worse than the orks.

Vacuum gameplay =/= real game play. If the Necron player is smart, he'll pick a unit on a flank and then, because of consilidation, by the time a second unit can charge, they will be wrapped. You can't charge in if you can't get B2B. Unless the 'Cron player is very slow or the ork player is very crafty, you aren't getting 93 orks in B2B with 10~11 dudes.

And if the Necron player is smart, he'll have Tesla support that will hop to CC units, possibly toasting more orks and posing little threat to the lords.

Each ork, with MSS, does d3 attacks. Charging doesn't change that. And MSS happens first, so any orks lost a great amount more less attacks. The only real risk is getting swept and let's not debate the ever living and swept rules.

TheKbob wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

TheKbob wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Dumah12 wrote:
My necron Death Star of 2+ 3++ lords and abyssal crypteks ended up pounding my opponent with out the loss of a single lord. Rez orb super lords are almost impossible to kill and 13 warscythe attacks do not allow many terminators to survive. 6 mind shackle triggers were brutal for my opponent. This Death Star is stupid expensive in points but will destroy anything.

hordes. MSS a few Orks while the rest pile in. For the price of a overtooled newcronstar you can have a ton of boys (90+). First nob declines the challenge so MSS procs on regular boys, nobs come in at the end to add in their attacks. Sure they have trouble wounding and getting past the save but with 270 attacks on the charge some will get through.

270 attacks, if they didn't charge, hitting on 4s, wounding on 6s, 2+ save, 4+ stand back up.

90+ orks won't be all in range for B2B to attack.

It'd tarpit them, at most. 6 MSS would mean 6~18 attacks back on the squad that has T-Shirt saves. That will also cull the herd every turn.

It's a gross unit.

sure they wont all get in BTB, but the first squad will tarpit them and then in following turns additional squads can charge in. They will never get out of the tarpit and when chargin the orks have +1 attack and strength meaning twice the wounds. Also if the nobz dont get MSS you are hoping the klaws get saves by the 3++ which they wont always. Also with 6 MSS, 3 will be passed by Ld 10, so that is average 6 hits. When charging that is 3 wounds, when not it is only 2 wounds. Even with the 2+ and the 4+ get back up, some of the lords will fall and with 11 crons vs 93 orks the attrition game will hurt the crons far worse than the orks.

Vacuum gameplay =/= real game play. If the Necron player is smart, he'll pick a unit on a flank and then, because of consilidation, by the time a second unit can charge, they will be wrapped. You can't charge in if you can't get B2B. Unless the 'Cron player is very slow or the ork player is very crafty, you aren't getting 93 orks in B2B with 10~11 dudes.

And if the Necron player is smart, he'll have Tesla support that will hop to CC units, possibly toasting more orks and posing little threat to the lords.

Each ork, with MSS, does d3 attacks. Charging doesn't change that. And MSS happens first, so any orks lost a great amount more less attacks. The only real risk is getting swept and let's not debate the ever living and swept rules.

orks have FC, so charging makes a good deal of difference for the MSS. the d3 hits will either be at Str3 or str4.

 Exergy wrote:

orks have FC, so charging makes a good deal of difference for the MSS. the d3 hits will either be at Str3 or str4.

I'm aware, but it's in the Necrons best interest to charge you. Reducing attacks with MSS, reducing attacks due to no charge bonus, reducing wounds through St3.

No Necron player is going to Foot slog that unit. He will probably have it in a nightscythe or use a dispair-tek to deep strike it around. Or just get Obyron to make it totally a point sink

TheKbob wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

orks have FC, so charging makes a good deal of difference for the MSS. the d3 hits will either be at Str3 or str4.

I'm aware, but it's in the Necrons best interest to charge you. Reducing attacks with MSS, reducing attacks due to no charge bonus, reducing wounds through St3.

No Necron player is going to Foot slog that unit. He will probably have it in a nightscythe or use a dispair-tek to deep strike it around. Or just get Obyron to make it totally a point sink

DSing nor Nighsything helps them get the charge.

What the real problem for me is in shooting. Sure things get back up but a 2+ save T5 isnt that surviable. Each lord is coming in at over 100 points. If it isnt tarpitted it might just get shot to bits.

Aren't the orks LD10? MSS isn't going to work more than 50% of the time.

Only when there are 10 or more of them.

Technically you can throw them in a ghost ark and roll up in some av13 protection and then assault because its open topped. As a Death Star unit it is dumb expensive but a lot of fun to play. Necron mobility allows you to place this unit pretty much where ever you want it.
As far as MSS go I find them more mentally intimidating to my opponent than physically damaging because it makes the assault far riskier when expensive IC either decline the challenge or hit themselves and buys back your points invested rather quickly. Not many people want to lose there 200 point hq.

As some one already pointed out Trazyn really makes a Royal Court sing. Makes it scoring, adds another MSS to the party, and protects it against Hordes.

And Exergy, they are T5 with a 2+ AND 4+ RP, that's about as resilient as a 1 wound model can hope to be. If the Orcs don't get the charge you are talking about on average ~150 attacks just to kill one Lord. Good lucking amassing that many through 6+ MSS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Only when there are 10 or more of them.

Is that right? I thought the mob rule only affected moral checks, not leadership tests ( I could be totally wrong though, been a few since I read the Orc Dex).

ShadarLogoth wrote:
As some one already pointed out Trazyn really makes a Royal Court sing. Makes it scoring, adds another MSS to the party, and protects it against Hordes.

And Exergy, they are T5 with a 2+ AND 4+ RP, that's about as resilient as a 1 wound model can hope to be. If the Orcs don't get the charge you are talking about on average ~150 attacks just to kill one Lord. Good lucking amassing that many through 6+ MSS.

I got that they are resilient, but they cost 110 points a model with the shifter. You can have almost 3 times as many TH/SS terminators who are only slightly less resilient for that price. Even then sometimes the best way to deal with terminators is to shoot them with a lot of dakka and force 2+ saves. The newcronstar is just as vunerable. guided warwalkes, venomspam, autocannon spam, it adds up.

As has been pointed out at length. 6 MSS is going to on average get 3 orks who will do 6 hits and while not charing 2 wounds. The 3 affected orks will subract 6-9 attacks from the total, really not worth the 90 points spent on MSS.