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Other than the ability to capture Jedi princesses, what do you really need in a Death Star to make it work? Heck, what does it do that a larger number of less powerful units can't? I (believe) what I'd like to do with a few armies is create an allied detachment that I can use as a DS, just to give me some fun little projects to paint and convert, but I honestly don't entirely understand what goings on with them.

 Lansirill wrote:
What do you really need in a Death Star to make it work?

Death stars need to match the following criteria to work
* Resiliance
* Ability to deal damage
* Ability to effect targets.
A squad of wraithguard for example, make a poor deathstar as they are slow moving with a 12" gun. A squad of paladins make an excellent deathstar, as they meet all 3 criteria.

Here are some examples of deathstars I see in the game today
* TH/SS termies (in a LR or on foot)
* Paladins
* Bloodcrushers w/Skulltaker (and fatewever)
* Nob Bikers w/Warboss
* Ghazz with Meganobs
* Harliestar
* Blob guard squad w/multiple ICs
* Thunder Wolves

Notice I did not mention point costs here. Deathstars simply require those 3 functions above, and do not require a percentage of your army. I have had great luck with 500 point deathstars in 2000 point games.

 Lansirill wrote:
what does it do that a larger number of less powerful units can't?

Application of a large amount of points directed into to small area of the board.

For example, take a look at 10 paladins + draigo sitting in the middle of the board. They can bring a large volume of fire to any area of the board they wish to, and they cover multiple objectives making it hard for the opponent to score. By dropping a large percentage of the army in that one unit its hard to shift.

Take the example of Bloodcrushers + Skulltaker. This one unit deep striking close to enemy lines brings a large threat very close to the front. The same points dedicated into multiple bloodletter squads would not be as threatening as the bloodletters could easily be destroyed one at a time. The crushers are durable enough to survive the round of shooting they require to get into assault. Unless your sporting 2+ armor (and often even with 2+ armor) your in big trouble. Even one crusher can easily destroy a MEQ squad in assault.

Deathstars are less effective than they were in 5th. Not being able to claim multiple objectives, and not being able to use wound allocation magic from shooting attacks has weakened them. They are still pretty good however, and I have found great effect with my deathstars.

I don't think TH/SS squads really count as Deathstars, but are rather the anti-Deathstar.

TH/SS can easily get bogged down by chaff. Feed them a mob of Ork boyz and they will either get destroyed or at least tied up for the whole game. Whereas a true Deathstar would have eaten the Ork boyz and asked for more.

So a command squad wouldnt work well.since even with FNP it only has five woumds and a 3+. A ten man BA assault squad with an HQ, sang priest, and two special weapons isn't killy enough and isn't that much more durable.than a tac squad.

 Lansirill wrote:
So a command squad wouldnt work well.since even with FNP it only has five woumds and a 3+. A ten man BA assault squad with an HQ, sang priest, and two special weapons isn't killy enough and isn't that much more durable.than a tac squad.

Correct, a Command Squad is a special weapon spam squad. Nothing more.

It becomes too expensive when kitted out for melee, and then you really need to stick them on bikes to make it worth it.

So, to be a proper death star, it needs to be able to kill off enemy units in a single attack. The real deathstar didn't need to shoot at alderan three or four times to finally wreck it. No, it shot once, and the planet was gone. End of.

Then, to really be a 40k deathstar, it needs to have the durability to do it again the next turn.

What this does, strategically, is to scare your opponent with its awesome killing power, and cause your opponent to divert an inordinant amount of effort to kill it (because the reaction is based on fear), and the deathstar has the durability to soak up a bit of this extra firepower so that when it kills something the next turn your opponent is hooked - he's going to spend all of mid-game focused on taking down a single unit while the rest of your army is able to have its way everywhere else.

MEQ deathstars really are best at terminators. 1 wound 3+ models don't really cut it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't think TH/SS squads really count as Deathstars, but are rather the anti-Deathstar.

TH/SS can easily get bogged down by chaff. Feed them a mob of Ork boyz and they will either get destroyed or at least tied up for the whole game. Whereas a true Deathstar would have eaten the Ork boyz and asked for more.

That is one of the weaknesses of 5 man TH/SS termies in land raiders. They can be bogged down.

 labmouse42 wrote:
MEQ deathstars really are best at terminators. 1 wound 3+ models don't really cut it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't think TH/SS squads really count as Deathstars, but are rather the anti-Deathstar.

TH/SS can easily get bogged down by chaff. Feed them a mob of Ork boyz and they will either get destroyed or at least tied up for the whole game. Whereas a true Deathstar would have eaten the Ork boyz and asked for more.

That is one of the weaknesses of 5 man TH/SS termies in land raiders. They can be bogged down.

they also cannot shoot so can be ignored if out of charge range. They also dont put out many attacks and being WS4 many hits. Pallys have WS5 and more attacks meaning they get twice the hits per model.

Even a big unit of TH/SS termites cant put out that many wounds. Against things that rely on their Toughness or their save, not that many wounds might scare them off but its not that many wounds. Add in a really scary HQ and things change.

I think the tooled HQ/special character is required. Something to make it so the 'star doesnt lose too much power as it takes casualties. If you have 5 pally+Draigo and you kill 1 pally that is 17% of the unit but the fighting ability does not go down 17%, killing one pally only really reducing the fighint ponetial by 10%.

Zhandrek, Obyron, shackle lords & 4 lance, 1 Eternity cryptek, is all you need for one mtf deathstar

But THSS termies are still not a deathstar unit. 400 points is big spending, and they're going to be resilient... sort of... and they're going to have to get there... eventually.

Plus, in my mind, a proper deathstar needs to be able to throw large units of guardsmen or ork boyz off the table with relative ease. Put those 400 points of termies up against 250 points of unupgraded guardsmen.

Guardsmen get to shoot once (say, for the sake of argument that they get FRF and that only 30 of them are in 12"), putting down 110 lasgun shots, which kills 3 of them, and then the termies charge in and overwatch kills another one, and then the bayonets stab another one to death. The termies are at half strength before they even get to swing.

If the guardsmen have any upgrades at all, like a source of stubborn or some power axes or some plasma guns and the termies are screwed... against roughly half their points cost in guardsmen. Doesn't sound very deathstary to me.

What makes a deathstar work is that it is a lot of hard hitting resilient models that destoy smaller groups. For example a 750pt deathstar is going to eat a 100pt unit alive. With the way combat works deathstars are good at hiding squishy models in a nice protective shell. That way more firepower is spent trying to kill your otherwise easy to kill guys. Deathstars can usually go where ever they want without fear of a specific unit.

Some of the problems with deathstars are they tie up a lot of points into one specific area leaving the other parts of your army weak. If one is able to avoid the deathstar they bypass the majority of the armies points. Deathstarts also do not usually fit in a vehicle so they are slow moving. Deathstarts can be tied up with hoards. And deathstars can take a beating from templates because they are so close together.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, to be a proper death star, it needs to be able to kill off enemy units in a single attack. The real deathstar didn't need to shoot at alderan three or four times to finally wreck it. No, it shot once, and the planet was gone. End of.

RIP Alderaan.

Rest In Pieces?

seems appropriate to me!

 labmouse42 wrote:
Death stars need to match the following criteria to work
* Resiliance
* Ability to deal damage
* Ability to effect targets.

I think this is a very good description of a deathstar's criteria, however, I would also contend that if something lacks one of these criteria - i.e the Serr council's lack of raw CC prowess - this does not stop them being a deathstar if the make up for that deficiency by excelling elsewhere, again i.e the Seer Council's extraordinary durability and ranged damage with Doom + Destructor.

Iranna.

I'm personally thinking of running a death star with The Darth Vader being Fateweaver with a bodyguard of flamers to make Look out Sir! saves and at least 20 pink horrors as an outer shell of protection(against assaults) along with a changeling, of course i'll have to deepstrike in but once it gets going it should be able to take care of anything

Opinions?

Sword Bretheren Assault Terminators
AAC
LC x5
TH/SS x2
MoS w/ TDA
Furious Charge
LRC


Absolutely disgusting. Extra attack with AAC, SS saves, Pref Enemy rerolling misses, LCs rerolling wounds. If whatever you point it at doesnt die, youre doing something wrong.

I'm pondering, for Marines in particular, whether bikes coupled with a couple of ICs could be made into a deathstar now. They have a few things going for them:

Resilience:
1) T5, which also now applies against ID.
2) much-improved Jink saves.
3) Attack Bikes, if taken, have 2W each. Characters could potentially have 2 or 3 as well.

Damage:
1) Twin-linked bolters at the very least for each model, which can of course rapid-fire. Add Attack Bikes or special weapons for even more.
2) Relentless means they can put out full shooting damage without having to sacrifice a charge.

Threat range:
1) Turbo-boost. Say no more.

Other thoughts - a Techmarine brings a 2+ save to help resilience without drastically increasing the unit size. Taking a MotF for vanilla Marines would mean this save isn't on a 1W model - especially valuable if facing S8/9 attacks.
Taking a Captain gives you that 2+ save again with Artificer Armour, I5 for challenges, and again vanilla Marines can have the relic blade for extra Strength.
A Chaplain would give rerolls on the charge, which is nuts when you consider the bolters already reroll as well.

About the only thing working against them I feel is perception... the initial 3+ save (which could be mitigated somewhat by putting a Techmarine/Artificer model in the front) means they SEEM less of a threat than Termies.

Straying back more firmly onto topic... hopefully this example's shown that sometimes it's what you add to an existing unit (characters and their abilities, in particular) that really make a deathstar. I believe the Chaplain/Termies combo has already been mentioned...

Labmouse hit the nail on the head with his post.
The only thing he really missed is mobility, but thats not allways essential.

The draigowing deathstar does not need this as much due to being very tough.
A lesser deathstar needs the ability to do its job quickly, as being caught in the open will still cause alot of problems.

Key to making a deathstar:

1: Pick a solid unit that can specialise in a single aspect, or even both.
Basic troops dont usually cut it, but sometimes they can help out alot.

2: Pick a solid character that bolsters the units ability to cause severe damage through either shooting or CC.
This will pretty much be for a hammer.

3: Pick a character/model that can bolster the unit through special rules.
Chappies for re-rolls, sang priest for FNP etc, anything which can boost the unit further.
Some units have options to do this without having to take a character, so it simply saves points, but you could allways add one for an added bonus.

4: More optional i guess, but psychic defence.
Adding something like a librarian to a unit can really boost this and can really save you alot of headaches.


So, rough example of a very basic deathstar.

Troop unit: Sanguin guard: banner, infernus pistol, fist
Character: Dante.
Bolster: Sang priest +/ chappy (kitted out as needed)
Psy defence: Libby (kitted out as needed)

All models have packs for mobility.
The main core of the unit has a 2+ save and FNP with a ton of attacks.
The unit gets re-rolls in combat, FNP, precision drop thanks to dante and can tear through most things in combat.
Its also able to stand against psychic powers and bolster its self with them.

Its a quick, hard hitting unit that can weather plenty of shooting/attacks.

I am just getting the hang of the whole deathstar thing... I have chosen Space Wolves thunderwolf cavalry as my deathstar- a squad of 5 with some storm shields in front to weather AP3 weaponry and an allied Sanguinary Priest with jump pack in the rear to give them all feel no pain. Only Str 10 will insta kill them, so they should always be able to take their feel no pain. I could even add a WG battle leader for some awesome outflanking action (also, this would add another model to the unit=more wounds). TWC are just plain full of killy goodness.

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
and an allied Sanguinary Priest with jump pack in the rear to give them all feel no pain.

Naughty, naughty. Someone hasn't been reading their FAQs. If you Click on this horrible link your plan will be ruined.

Well.... that's some ! I sold out my BA just before 6th... and have revently been building up a small allied detachment.. Figures, I am probably not the only one that saw they were BB and was thinking of that mix... Thanks for the heads up. Back to the drawing board...

I'd say that in order for a death star unit (my definition would be a unit of 400 points or more) to be worthwhile, it must be durable. Without durability, a death star is simply a glass cannon and will not be worth the cost. Death stars should take multiple turns of concentrated shooting to take down. In addition, a good Death Star should be a combination of:

-Fast
-Shooty
-High Damage Dealing
-Scoring

For my money, kitted Paladins with Draigo (and Coteaz/Inquisitor for Prescience) is the best death star in the game. Why? Because it checks off most of the requirements of an effective death star.

So in C:SM what would be considered a deathstar?

Hard to match Draigo+Paladin shenanigans.

Lately I've been running Vulkan and TH/SS Termies, but I don't think that counts as a Deathstar. It's awesome, and can clean house, but nothing like those paladins

Maybe Lysander and Sternguard? -- This tends to wreck face, but again, comparing it to the above, doesn't compare.

Thoughts?

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Sword Bretheren Assault Terminators
AAC
LC x5
TH/SS x2
MoS w/ TDA
Furious Charge
LRC


Absolutely disgusting. Extra attack with AAC, SS saves, Pref Enemy rerolling misses, LCs rerolling wounds. If whatever you point it at doesnt die, youre doing something wrong.

This kills everything, except TH/SS terminators. And so is a good example of a Deathstar. And why TH/SS are an Anti-deathstar and not a Deathstar.

 NickTheButcher wrote:
So in C:SM what would be considered a deathstar?

Hard to match Draigo+Paladin shenanigans.

Lately I've been running Vulkan and TH/SS Termies, but I don't think that counts as a Deathstar. It's awesome, and can clean house, but nothing like those paladins

Maybe Lysander and Sternguard? -- This tends to wreck face, but again, comparing it to the above, doesn't compare.

Thoughts?

C:SM isn't really a Deathstar codex. Closest you can get is like...Lysander+Vulkan+TH/SS Termies. Vulkan helps them punch faces, Lysander handles any challenges, but it's still not much of a deathstar.

Wazdakka Bikerstar and Draigostars are the srs bznz.

 Valek wrote:
Zhandrek, Obyron, shackle lords & 4 lance, 1 Eternity cryptek, is all you need for one mtf deathstar

This isn't a deathstar. It has too few wounds, low saves and resiliency on average, very low damage output, and has no set role on the battelfield; Zhandrek and the Crypteks want to be out of combat, the Lord and Obyron want to be inside it. Not only is it not a deathstar, but it isn't a very good unit either.

This isn't a deathstar. It has too few wounds, low saves and resiliency on average, very low damage output, and has no set role on the battelfield; Zhandrek and the Crypteks want to be out of combat, the Lord and Obyron want to be inside it. Not only is it not a deathstar, but it isn't a very good unit either.

To be fair, it is a death star, just not a good one. Players can overdo and bloat many units in a bad way. Necron Court stars are an example of a terrible death star. The reason is that they lack the key element of durability, particularly in close combat. All it takes is a failed morale check to cause an easy sweep and consolidate so that the characters can't resurrect. Even shooting down a number of toughness 5 bodies with 1 wound isn't tough. Plus, the unit doesn't score, isn't fast, and can't shoot.

Vindicators can deal with any deathstar by SS deathstars.

No reason to be scared of a blob of Paladins when you can obliterate them in a round with 2 Vindicators.

Vindicators can deal with any deathstar by SS deathstars.

No reason to be scared of a blob of Paladins when you can obliterate them in a round with 2 Vindicators.

Or with against a smart opponent who uses Draigo and good spacing, maybe do 1-2 wounds...but whatever...

The point of any deathstar is to be ridiculously impossibly durable. It doesn't matter if the enemy outnumbers it if they can't kill it; I used a three-man Paladin squad for mopup in the dying days of 5e, and it never took more than a Wound or two because it was so tough.

These days I'm thinking Space Marine Command Squads might be an interesting place to go with the deathstar concept; bikes and Storm Shields means you've got a T5/3+/3++/FNP unit; it's expensive, but it can take a lot of fire.

One other thing I'd like to bring up about deathstars while we're discussing them is that they really should be fast enough to keep out of range of a Vindicator; footslogging deathstars aren't as useful when the enemy can plop a S10 template on top of them. Bikes are a useful thing to have.