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 Kanluwen wrote:

Irrelevant. You bought a model produced by them, opting for the illegally produced option rather than the legally produced option.

Or maybe, they bought a model produced by them, opting for the illegally produced option rather than nothing.

I don't agree with counterfeiting, but I don't agree with equating it with a lost sale either. Your model implies that the person who buys from a recaster would have bought the item at any price from the original seller and that's clearly not true.

Somewhat more on-topic, Coolcast had the Tyranid Brood Nest on their site recently. Ironically, it was priced higher than the last price I saw it for on Forge World's website but when I checked FW the thing was out of production...

 Kanluwen wrote:
Did you buy the product that GW sells from Coolcast?

If yes: That is a sale that GW did not receive. The only way you could make this argument is if it's OOP models, but even then it's still a bit of a logical fallacy as the original product is still available on the market.

Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

And if I bought a (legit) FW model off of eBay for cheaper than what FW is selling it for, is that a sale 'lost', even though the model is 100% legit?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Did you buy the product that GW sells from Coolcast?

If yes: That is a sale that GW did not receive. The only way you could make this argument is if it's OOP models, but even then it's still a bit of a logical fallacy as the original product is still available on the market.

Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

And if I bought a (legit) FW model off of eBay for cheaper than what FW is selling it for, is that a sale 'lost', even though the model is 100% legit?

OFC it is plus living in embargoland makes us elligible for a 60 pounds GW tax that we are supposed to pay praising our beloved overlords.
I never bought from a recaster but after GW's 2011 antics for the Asia-Oceania markets if I ever order from GW it will be a miracle.

M.

 Marthike wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
The site is not shut down, nor are the FW products gone.

Boys and Girls, expect to see Revenant and Phantom Titan dropping in 3 weeks from now.

*Edit, actually the next wave are already out, just not on a private owned website .

 leroy233 wrote:
I didnt even know that these sites were available, i thought gw would trample on all who defy them.

I know what they do is wrong but some of the fw stuff is just plain expensive.

If they drop the price people would buy more stuff, well i would anyway.

Are there anymore site like this?

Thats what GW fans want you to believe, they tell you the quality is bad, which is actually superior.
They tell you the shipping is slow, but its 3 weeks and free shipping.
They tell you its cheap because sweat shop. Well if you call 3 people in a kitchen sized room a sweat shop.
They tell you why GW is expensive, yet I can tell you the recasters are making high % of profit still, even at a fraction of FW price.

However....... I don't like pirates and recasters, and that link still links to recasts, which is still not ok.
Reporting link.

 Kanluwen wrote:
*point and laugh*

Couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch.

Don't know what to tell you.... there are at least 10 other re casters I can find.

http://i.imgur.com/XLM5A.jpg

That is expensive for a recast. £16.8

Its $26 for the whole model, the currency displayed was... Chinese dolla


And to those in tin foil cast claiming the counterfeit items are made by FW MOLD AND EX FW EMPLOYEES.

^This is 100% false. Chinese counterfeiters does NOT use FW molds, and the majority of them are NOT FW employees,
NOR do they need any "FW" training to handle resin. They have been pirating garage kits for decades, FW is baby walk in comparison.

I mean sure, I guess I can understand when the beloved company gets out done by pirates, yet
if you really love FW, you would ask them to step up their game, instead of making false information up to make FW ( AND FINECAST ) look better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charax wrote:

It does seem quite inconsistent, except that the links are going to a place that explicitly doesn't sell GW recasts anymore, so I dont see how it's helping - they don't use redirects on the site so whenever the replacement goes up knowing the URL for the old shop won't help

Because, the link specifically links to a counterfeiter site, ATM they halt carrying FW, GW items,
which does not mean they dont carry pirated items.
Quoting myself, If one cares about something, its an issue, if they dont, then its drama.
We shouldn't be mad against counterfeiters only because they recast FW items... we should be against counterfeiter because counterfeiting is wrong....

Lastly, this thread lets people know counterfeiters exists ( which many didnt earlier )
now they'll be looking for them,

AND when that website decides to continue their shenanigan, then what? removing the link would be too late then.

Yet, it's not restricted to FW. And it has nothing to do with them being "FW employees".

Forge World, for the span of a year or so in 2009, explored mass manufacturing by contracting out production to a Chinese firm.
As BrookM mentioned, there was a hefty run of Elysian Drop Troops done in China. There was also a run of Death Korps of Krieg, various Marine Dreadnoughts, and other "high volume" items which sell in droves.

In order to do so--they would have to provide molds to the Chinese firm for production purposes.

Supposedly production numbers and quality were not acceptable for the amount the firm was charging, with a large number of the master molds provided to the firm "walking off" the factory floor and being replaced with shoddy molds.

So yeah. Clearly they never ever ever would have had the molds to work from.

Ever.

Simple question. What happens when you inject resin into plastic mold machine?

Also, what year was Decimator made.

What do plastic mold machines have to do with anything?

Oh I just want to know, what happens when you inject resin into a GW plastic mold machine. Since I have never tried yet, and you seem to know these things?

So... do you happen to know what happens?

Play nice guys....

What does this have to do with anything?

Forge World outsourced to a Chinese firm for awhile. That has nothing to do with plastic production, nor does it have anything to do with GW.

There are firms in China which do resin production, and FW contracted out to one of them. That requires them to give over molds for production.

It is not an uncommon phenomenon. I suggest you do some research.

It has to do with everything kan.

Just tell me, can you use GW plastic molds to yield resin products or not.
Im asking you because you are always at the forefront of claiming the nice casts are made by FW equipments.

 Kanluwen wrote:
What do plastic mold machines have to do with anything?

Everything actually.

Your assertion is that they were using the moulds given/sold/licensed to to them by FW to make their FW recasts. Thing is they were making resin recasts of GW's regular plastic kits and brand new FW resin kits as well. They're doing more than just using the moulds they had - they're making new ones.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
What do plastic mold machines have to do with anything?

Everything actually.

Your assertion is that they were using the moulds given/sold/licensed to to them by FW to make their FW recasts. Thing is they were making resin recasts of GW's regular plastic kits and brand new FW resin kits as well. They're doing more than just using the moulds they had - they're making new ones.

Which as Aerethan posted, isn't that hard. Garage operations can do that.

That still does not change the fact that the firm in question did have possession of FW's (and potentially GW's, depending on if they had been awarded the contract for the plastics as well) molds at one time when they were contracted and were making product using said molds.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Play nice guys....

Always am mister :3

So they shared it out with the others then?

They never needed the FW or GW contract to produce it, they just needed some way to acquire a model.

 n0t_u wrote:
So they shared it out with the others then?

They never needed the FW or GW contract to produce it, they just needed some way to acquire a model.

True, but having the original molds doesn't hurt any.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
So they shared it out with the others then?

They never needed the FW or GW contract to produce it, they just needed some way to acquire a model.

True, but having the original molds doesn't hurt any.

And realizing counterfeiters doesn't need to use FW molds to produce BETTER products doesn't hurt either.

 LunaHound wrote:

And to those in tin foil cast claiming the counterfeit items are made by FW MOLD AND EX FW EMPLOYEES.

^This is 100% false. Chinese counterfeiters does NOT use FW molds, and the majority of them are NOT FW employees,
NOR do they need any "FW" training to handle resin. They have been pirating garage kits for decades, FW is baby walk in comparison.

Any proof, or just pulling opinions out of ...whole air and calling it "100%" truth?

Running a factory with hundreds of employees versus a shop floor of dozens plays a large part in that.

And I would be very interested to see exactly how many casts these counterfeiters go through before they get these "flawless" casts given the nature of resin casting.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Running a factory with hundreds of employees versus a shop floor of dozens plays a large part in that.

And I would be very interested to see exactly how many casts these counterfeiters go through before they get these "flawless" casts given the nature of resin casting.

Oh now now, you are just back paddling.
What ever the chinese did, so can FW.

You are forgetting, producing additional only costs FW a few dollars to make sure you get a flawless product.

IF FW felt like it, they could, but nope.

Or we can settle with " pirates more competent than original "
or
"Pirates actually cares more about customers to throw away the flawed one, but hey! look! they are already surpassing FW in their QC and Customer Satisfaction support!"

Either way, all at the same time, still keeping the quality, and keeping the profit / business up.

Also, Not too sure whether resin can be re used or not hmmm


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scipio.au wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:

And to those in tin foil cast claiming the counterfeit items are made by FW MOLD AND EX FW EMPLOYEES.

^This is 100% false. Chinese counterfeiters does NOT use FW molds, and the majority of them are NOT FW employees,
NOR do they need any "FW" training to handle resin. They have been pirating garage kits for decades, FW is baby walk in comparison.

Any proof, or just pulling opinions out of ...whole air and calling it "100%" truth?

What do you think? Also, the more you know, more power to you sir :3



B.I.N.G.O found some more

@Luna: Resin can be reused - but only as filler (You can either grind it into dust and mix it in like any other filler, or you can just sandwich bits of the resin in between fresh stuff.

Unlike metals, that just go back into the crucible and remelted down.

At the end of the day, it boils down to - How much am I going to pay for XXX model.

The way prices are these days? You are seriously nit picking these guys in china making bank?

FW should have though of that before sending the business out there, kept it local, and then at least they could have justified to exhorbant prices.

Then we could get into it over "Finecrap", itself. They charge MORE for the shoddy finecrap now then for Forgeworld.

No, it boils down to if you want to keep playing, you need to put it to Wart and company that they need to change the way they do business. OR face the loss.


On YOUR end, you can either pay 200+ for something, or 100. Thats not a real hard choice, at the end of the day.

The 100% disturbing thing for gamers should be- That the "Pirate" is doing the product BETTER then the standard issued stuff from FW. If I were FW, I'd be worried.


If you want to stop Pirated stuff, YOU would just not buy from them. ( Nevermind QUALITY! We WANT our bubbles and miscasts, Thats what makes them.... finecast!)


Thank you sir, may I have another!
(Google search- Chinese copyright infringement of Games Workshop) This is what comes up

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=chinese+copyright+infringement+of+Games+Workshop&oq=chinese+copyright+infringement+of+Games+Workshop&gs_l=serp.3...32820.39650.0.40197.25.25.0.0.0.0.662.5062.5j7j2j7j1j1.23.0.les%3Beqn%2Ccconf%3D1-2%2Cmin_length%3D2%2Crate_low%3D0-035%2Crate_high%3D0-035%2Csecond_pass%3Dfalse%2Cnum_suggestions%3D2%2Cignore_bad_origquery%3Dtrue..0.0...1c.1.plif1tjnkF0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=11b8100df2353230&bpcl=35466521&biw=1366&bih=615

http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyright/notice.cgi?NoticeID=30508
http://www.mi40k.com/2010/05/10/warhammeralliance-com-sued-by-games-workshop/
http://samods.org/articles/wiz/warletters

etc.etc.etc.

And.... lets not even start talking about 3D printers.


On my end? I know about them, but even though I have no love for GW- I'm not going to buy any copy from someone over in another country so they can make bank if they can, rip you off, and possibly not send you jack for your purchase, or even send you some sort of biohazardous material.

Feth both of them, Feth GW, and the Recasters.

As long as GW treats me like a shill, they can worry about thier own handwringing and "Protection"- seeing as they lost over $5,000+ USD in sales from me annually for the past three years.

Just so you know, though- these products are not honestly reputable, no matter how "Good" you think they are.

Maybe you get what you paid for, maybe they take your money and you get nothing, or maybe even they give you a pile of medical waste, who really knows.


Google search for Chinese recast toy hazards

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=chinese+recast+toys+hazards&oq=chinese+recast+toys+hazards&gs_l=serp.12...4185.19214.0.20856.37.37.0.0.0.0.333.6431.12j9j3j12.36.0.les%3Beqn%2Ccconf%3D1-2%2Cmin_length%3D2%2Crate_low%3D0-035%2Crate_high%3D0-035%2Csecond_pass%3Dfalse%2Cnum_suggestions%3D2%2Cignore_bad_origquery%3Dtrue..0.0...1c.1.bWCA9jDSPic&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=11b8100df2353230&bpcl=35466521&biw=1366&bih=615


buyer beware.

1. Coolcast will NOT be continuing under that URL. The company itself isn't called coolcast, or anything really. The site will be shut down at the end of the month(so they say) and they will likely open up a new one under a different name, but with the exact same pages and layout as before, which is what they did last time this happened.

2. Their access to FW molds is moot. They don't need them, and they don't gain much by already having them, other than perhaps a day or two of mold making up front.

3. Their casts are better because they bother to find out what works. As you can see they sell a lot more than GW/FW, and those items are also resin. They've been doing this a while and know what methods and resins will yield the best results. This is called R&D, something that FW should invest in.

Now at least Coolcast had the decency to use an off white resin, so you really can't argue that they are originals. Now the Russian casts are all in FW grey resin, making them pretty indistinguishable from the originals, thus allowing them to slide by on ebay so much.

And on that note, ebay casters don't have to prove that they AREN'T counterfeits if they don't look like it. To the average person they look legit, and ebay isn't going to start asking Russia for their FW receipts.

Honestly, Russia is the bigger threat here since they do almost the entire 40k GW line as well as a large chunk of the new Warhammer Forge stuff.


If GW was a company that earned some modicum of respect from me, I'd never buy another recast. As they are, I don't lose any sleep over it.

Stealing from thieves is still stealing, yes. But Robin Hood got away with it and won, so there's that.

Now quick, fanboys take everything I said out of context.

 Aerethan wrote:
Now quick, fanboys take everything I said out of context.

Yes sir! *salutes*

 Aerethan wrote:
... NOT ... really. The site [steals] FW molds [to] gain much...

[FW] casts are better [and] they sell a lot more than [Coolcast]... [FW have] been doing this a while and know what methods and resins will yield the best results. [Coolcast do not]. This is called R&D, something that [Coolcast] should invest in.

... Coolcast [has no] decency...

Honestly, [Coolcast] is the bigger threat here [and not FW].

If [Coolcast] was a company that earned some modicum of respect from me, I'd buy recast[s]. As they are, I don't lose any sleep over it.

Stealing from [FW] is still stealing, yes. But [I support Hiter] so there's that.

Clearly this man supports Hitler.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
Now quick, fanboys take everything I said out of context.

Yes sir! *salutes*

 Aerethan wrote:
... NOT ... really. The site [steals] FW molds [to] gain much...

[FW] casts are better [and] they sell a lot more than [Coolcast]... [FW have] been doing this a while and know what methods and resins will yield the best results. [Coolcast do not]. This is called R&D, something that [Coolcast] should invest in.

... Coolcast [has no] decency...

Honestly, [Coolcast] is the bigger threat here [and not FW].

If [Coolcast] was a company that earned some modicum of respect from me, I'd buy recast[s]. As they are, I don't lose any sleep over it.

Stealing from [FW] is still stealing, yes. But [I support Hiterl] so there's that.

Clearly this man supports Hitler.

You are my hero.

I just met you, and this is crazy, but I buy recasts, and like Hitler maybe?

 notprop wrote:
Cheap hobbiests are cheap.

These fellers will always exist for any product that is popular,
As will hobbiest that want or believe they deserve their toys at a fraction of the cost.

Sooner or later this blip will come to someone's attention in China (ie if/when Gw becomes relatively wide spread there) and they will address these individuals with the usual subtle Chinese law interpretation. Recasting/IP copying represents a significant stain on Chinas reputation and one that they will expunge as move rapidly toward the modern developed state they want to be/are.

Then it will probably pop up somewhere else as those cheap hobbiests will still want cheap copies.

This would happen whether a SM costs 60p or £60, demand drives this as with all other scams.

China's business model is a monster created in the attic of capitalistic western world. What happens now (and probably more in the future) can only be described as poetic justice.

I bought a couple of Tyranid Spore chimneys from them, more than a year after FW decided to not sell them anymore. FW said they would have to double the price if they wanted to continue selling them, the Chinese sold them for less than original price. No lost sales, perfect quality, happy gamer.

 Kroothawk wrote:
I bought a couple of Tyranid Spore chimneys from them, more than a year after FW decided to not sell them anymore. FW said they would have to double the price if they wanted to continue selling them, the Chinese sold them for less than original price. No lost sales, perfect quality, happy gamer.

This probably has more to do with limited space and warehousing for FW, where continuing to sell something means they can't sell something else that makes them more and sells better.

 LunaHound wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scipio.au wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:

And to those in tin foil cast claiming the counterfeit items are made by FW MOLD AND EX FW EMPLOYEES.

^This is 100% false. Chinese counterfeiters does NOT use FW molds, and the majority of them are NOT FW employees,
NOR do they need any "FW" training to handle resin. They have been pirating garage kits for decades, FW is baby walk in comparison.[/size]

Any proof, or just pulling opinions[/size] out of ...whole air and calling it "100%" truth?

What do you think? Also, the more you know, more power to you sir :3

What do I think?
I know that you have no way of knowing what goes on in China in any significant detail. You have an opinion of what you think you know goes on, but you actually have no real idea of what exactly goes on - with no more certainty than anyone else here. Claiming something like "100% false" discredits your posit, as you have no way of actually knowing what goes on in a factory on the other side of the world, despite your rather arrogant and misguided assertion. Though, I guess it's a bit of a habit. I'm probably going to put you on ignore now, as this isn't the first time you've come out of left field with this kind of rant filled with ...passionate opinion presented as hard fact (despite the language barrier).

edit - tags and typo

I say feth games workshop, they totally deserve this.

Scratch building used to be a thing when I first started the hobby, that's all this is.

Games workshop management just need to get of their high horses, realize that they are a toy soldiers company and dramatically cut their prices, this Chinese competition is healthy in my opinion and GW needs to learn how to be competitive in a modern market.

Other consumer goods continue to get cheaper or improve in quality/features, flat screen TVs, smart phones, laptops, games consoles, but GW products continue to go up in price without improvements to the product being made, it's unsustainable.