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I have been contemplating the best use of each of their upgrades and weather it better to go all ranged or all cc or take one of each.

When using 2 I had thought to kit one out with double power fist and flamer and the other lascannon and missles.

I am wondering if I am specializing too much and stick to a mix of las cannon and power scourge or similiar load out for versatility.

I know it depends on the list and if I am running 1 or 2 brutes though I am still fine tuning my 2000 pt army..

I plan on running a Hell Brute along with a foot slog blob of 30 cc cultists w/ 3 flamers and a Dark Apostle all marked by Khorne. Mabe throw a vindicator in front of them while Rhinos and a LR escort those forward who will be doing the heavy lifting. Meanwhile another 15 cultist in an ADL w/ quad gun and perhaps a Hellbrute as objective claimers.

Any one seen or experienced any decisive use of the Hell brute?

I think they are pretty inexpensive and the model is awesome, much better than old dread imho.

I've always had a soft spot for dreads. They changed a few things and I think summarizing them puts things in perspective.

1. The new model. I hate it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though. Just don't paint the flesh pink, likes like a naked hulk. Maybe green flesh like the hulk. Up to you.
2. New crazed table. I can't see any negatives. You basically ignore stunned. You ignore shaken on everything but a fire frenzy (although after re-reading it I'm trying to figure out if fire frenzy ignores shaken RAW).
3. Equal odds of getting the shooty or stabby option on the crazy table. I think this means you need to balance your dreads to suit. I used to go dual weapons to mitigate negatives but now I'm thinking stock.
4. They are cheap (remember the -5pts FAQ thing too). I would stick with that and keep them cheap. Most of the options look expensive, so I will keep mine stock (mine are converted AOBR anyways).
5. Fire frenzy makes you shoot at the thing that shot you, and shoot twice. It immobilizes you anyway, so you should get your money's worth. MM is my preference, but maybe 24'' wastes it. The autocannnon or the plasma cannon would give you the very most mileage. I think the las is too expensive but if you got the points...
6. I like lists.

1. I agree the new model only really suits a cyborg flesh-fused-with-steel theme, which isn't every Chaos army, but the good news is you can just traitorize a normal dread instead. A rare(ish) design decision from GW Of course, a separate Helbrute kit (if it exists) may go for yet another look, as opposed to repeating the DV look.
2. Agreed, subject to 3 below
3. This does suggest you'll get less value from an all-stabby or all-shooty helbrute, as it wouldn't benefit (much) from 1 in 3 options.
4. And spending up large is always dangerous on a unit subject to random stuff like the Crazed table, as the unit may not get to do what you'd intended
4 and 5. I too am thinking that just a AC or PC gun upgrade is the best value for money. Or save points and just stick with the MM, if you're planning on keeping in your opponent's face anyway, where range won't matter.
6. I hate lists, but whatever...

I'm building one now that I'm modelling up to have two flails. I figure I can because I can swap the multimelta for a PF and i can replace ANY PF with a flail.

Whatever it gets in combat with will have very little weapon skill, that's for sure! We'll see what happens when he gets on the tabletop.

Sorry for the thread o mancy.
Searched for helbrutes and found this thread a month late.
Any updates after using some of these guys on the table top? I'm extremely interested in the dual flail set up. The only benefit I see from running two is the bonus attack, as flail doesn't appear to be cumulative.
Shooty brutes worth it?
Walkers and monsters list?
Are grenades killing your brutes?

 Brymm wrote:
Sorry for the thread o mancy.
Searched for helbrutes and found this thread a month late.
Any updates after using some of these guys on the table top? I'm extremely interested in the dual flail set up. The only benefit I see from running two is the bonus attack, as flail doesn't appear to be cumulative.
Shooty brutes worth it?
Walkers and monsters list?
Are grenades killing your brutes?

so the power scourge gives an interesting nuance to the brute. Means you and any other unit in BTB will hit on 3+ and with zerkers you have a very good chance of return hits on 5+. Even regular marines will sometimes be hit on 5+, if you roll well. We havent really seen a dread force multiplier before like this. dropping to Str8 isnt too big a deal from 10 and you retain your AP2.

As for walking firebase I think these pair well with either mass mech, bunch of forgefineds'/maullerfiends and rhinos with havoc OR with oblits and a ton of CSM on foot.

Has anyone who's been running brutes figured out an interesting way to get the shorter ranged ones into combat effectively? I've been looking at walking them up behind vehicles but that feels like a waste of a vehicle. lol

I'm running two of them in dreadclaws with their basic loadout, their is a really simple conversion that you can google for which saves you spending £88 + P&P all you need is a drop pod, means you can DS hop out and pop a tank and get in a position to charge something next turn, or if there is nothing in there to get then you chill inside till the next turn....even if something goes wrong and you lose your helbrute and dreadclaw in a mishap your below 200 points for it

I'm running two of them in dreadclaws with their basic loadout, their is a really simple conversion that you can google for which saves you spending ...

That's what I was afraid of. It feels like with the current dex (really it's always been this way I suppose) your options are to run them up behind vehicles or use FW rules. Has anyone found something I'm not seeing (it happens all the time so fingers crossed! lol)?

I'm not wild about the new model either but I'm planning on just using the loyalist venerable dreadnought model anyway.

As far as weapons, I like the plasma cannon. It's fairly rare for Chaos and one of the few weapons that is effective with only a single shot. I also like the cheap reaper but the only thing I feel it has over the plasma is the ability to hit air.

 Exergy wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
Sorry for the thread o mancy.
Searched for helbrutes and found this thread a month late.
Any updates after using some of these guys on the table top? I'm extremely interested in the dual flail set up. The only benefit I see from running two is the bonus attack, as flail doesn't appear to be cumulative.
Shooty brutes worth it?
Walkers and monsters list?
Are grenades killing your brutes?

so the power scourge gives an interesting nuance to the brute. Means you and any other unit in BTB will hit on 3+ and with zerkers you have a very good chance of return hits on 5+. Even regular marines will sometimes be hit on 5+, if you roll well. We havent really seen a dread force multiplier before like this. dropping to Str8 isnt too big a deal from 10 and you retain your AP2.

As for walking firebase I think these pair well with either mass mech, bunch of forgefineds'/maullerfiends and rhinos with havoc OR with oblits and a ton of CSM on foot.

used the twin power scourge twice, but never got into combat due to immobilized damage results :(

I keep on using him but there needs to be a lot of distraction on the board, almost certainly some maulerfiends and probably a land raider (he can go behind) with a warpsmith and some kind of punchy inside. you figure most AT fire will be focused on the other stuff.

I've tried them a few times.

With powerfist and power scourge, he was walking around wrecking in close combat. Was very fun lowering enemy weapon skill. Very cheap for what he did, so I ran three of them, for the same cost as my 10 man possessed squad...

Also tried with a plasma cannon, same price as above, and it worked really well.

I wouldn't trade both CCW's due to the table, furthermore I found out that using the plasma cannon helped as I can glance myself, forcing the table rolls! Great fun.

 juraigamer wrote:
I've tried them a few times.

With powerfist and power scourge, he was walking around wrecking in close combat. Was very fun lowering enemy weapon skill. Very cheap for what he did, so I ran three of them, for the same cost as my 10 man possessed squad...

3 for the cost of one terrible squad, how can I go wrong!

How are you getting CC dreads into combat without dying?

How are you getting CC dreads into combat without dying?

I asked that earlier. So far the only answers we have are:

1. Use FW rules to put them in Pods
2. Walk them up-field behind a vehicle


Really hoping someone has something better though! lol

Here's the BoLS editorial on the death of cc dreads:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/07/40k-editorial-death-of-assault-dread.html

Summary: combination of being hit on a 3+/4+ in close combat with grenades, plus ability to glance them to death on hull points, means that CC dreads aren't what they used to be against anything with krak grenades. There's more to it, but overall I found the argument persuasive.

So what about just equipping the hellbrute for shooting with AC and ML? It's still dirt cheap firepower, and more reliable than it used to be.

I want to take another look at powerscourges, though.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Here's the BoLS editorial on the death of cc dreads:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/07/40k-editorial-death-of-assault-dread.html

Summary: combination of being hit on a 3+/4+ in close combat with grenades, plus ability to glance them to death on hull points, means that CC dreads aren't what they used to be against anything with krak grenades. There's more to it, but overall I found the argument persuasive.

So what about just equipping the hellbrute for shooting with AC and ML? It's still dirt cheap firepower, and more reliable than it used to be.

I want to take another look at powerscourges, though.

Yeah that article seemed to make sense too but I don't think its as bad as they made it out to be. I feel the same stuff that kills dreads in 5th, still does in 6th and just as well. A few things got better, notably, anything with haywire grenades. The fear of krak grenades seems a little overboard, needing 6's and all. Same problems as with 5th: getting into combat.

That said, shooting does seem awesome for them now. Why not AC/ML?!What a dirt cheap little shooty machine. You can even pretend you are loyalist and have the ol' psyfilemen stand ins in the back row!

It's the crazed table that prevents me from taking a pure CC or shooty dread but maybe that's a false limitation. You aren't always crazed and a more pure build could be more effective on average even if you roll a useless crazed result.

Tycho wrote:
Has anyone who's been running brutes figured out an interesting way to get the shorter ranged ones into combat effectively? I've been looking at walking them up behind vehicles but that feels like a waste of a vehicle. lol

If your army is rhino based they have synergy. Your opponent has to focus on the rhinos and troops, or the dreads. Something should get through. My army is fully mobile, even my heavy support is moving toward the enemy, being obliterators. So walking up a couple of dreads on the flanks has worked. They are fairly easy to kill, but not super expensive. If your opponent focuses fire on them it isn't a huge loss. And if they do get into his lines, well strength 10 close combat attacks make short work of vehicles, and av12 is tough for most infantry to deal with.

 Brymm wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Here's the BoLS editorial on the death of cc dreads:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/07/40k-editorial-death-of-assault-dread.html

Summary: combination of being hit on a 3+/4+ in close combat with grenades, plus ability to glance them to death on hull points, means that CC dreads aren't what they used to be against anything with krak grenades. There's more to it, but overall I found the argument persuasive.

So what about just equipping the hellbrute for shooting with AC and ML? It's still dirt cheap firepower, and more reliable than it used to be.

I want to take another look at powerscourges, though.

Yeah that article seemed to make sense too but I don't think its as bad as they made it out to be. I feel the same stuff that kills dreads in 5th, still does in 6th and just as well. A few things got better, notably, anything with haywire grenades.

Wyches with haywire grends did go from, "will almost never hurt a dread" to "the thing is dead before it can strike first round"

Not that there are many DE players out there, but as one dreads went from somethign I feared in CC to something I laughed at in CC.

I agree though, The krak grenade thing is only a small issue. I think dreads got a bit of a buff in CC. Let me explain:
Now that you can challenge a sergeant powerfist, fists are not a great option of sergeants, thus you will be seeing less fists. A hidden fist will will kill a dread just as fast or faster than krak grenades, and you are not going to see as many fists.

 Exergy wrote:


I agree though, The krak grenade thing is only a small issue. I think dreads got a bit of a buff in CC. Let me explain:
Now that you can challenge a sergeant powerfist, fists are not a great option of sergeants, thus you will be seeing less fists. A hidden fist will will kill a dread just as fast or faster than krak grenades, and you are not going to see as many fists.

I'm also seeing fewer powerfist sergeants, but most of them now seem to have meltabombs instead--as a cheap anti-walker thing.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


I agree though, The krak grenade thing is only a small issue. I think dreads got a bit of a buff in CC. Let me explain:
Now that you can challenge a sergeant powerfist, fists are not a great option of sergeants, thus you will be seeing less fists. A hidden fist will will kill a dread just as fast or faster than krak grenades, and you are not going to see as many fists.

I'm also seeing fewer powerfist sergeants, but most of them now seem to have meltabombs instead--as a cheap anti-walker thing.

well there is that, I am seeing a lot more naked sergeants, or just plain sword or lightning claw. The have also been some plasma pistols, but those are a laugh. Some meltabombs as well, I admit but I still think it is an overall decrease. I could be wrong.

Knowing that, and that I could with the flail, make them hit on 5's because of WS1 (if I roll a 3!), I think a dual Flail for the extra attack would be worth it. I assume that the fist/flail combo loses an attack because you don't gain an attack with the fist unless you get 2, right?

I used my helbrute armed with lascannons and power fist in a 3,000 point game vs orks last night and it chewed through the best part of a mob of boyz before eventually being taken down by a mega armoured warboss. I rolled blood rage twice before it charged into combat on turn 2 so he never fired a shot. I do think it's best to have a mix of shooting and close combat weapons on them to cover all bases though.

 Brymm wrote:
Knowing that, and that I could with the flail, make them hit on 5's because of WS1 (if I roll a 3!), I think a dual Flail for the extra attack would be worth it. I assume that the fist/flail combo loses an attack because you don't gain an attack with the fist unless you get 2, right?

My understanding is walkers just need an additional melee weapon, type doesn't matter so fist & scourge work.

2 power fists, 2 heavy flamers.
The dual heavy flamers really help out against those pesky wyches, as walkers can fire overwatch.

I just can't wrap my head around why it costs 15pts PER Heavy Flamer. That just seems SO steep for a weapon that will probably fire once all game.
It should be 15 for the pair.
Or the P-fist should just come with a regular flamer that you can upgrade to a heavy flamer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I did just check and no you don't need an additional flail to get the bonus attack. I find I learn a new rule everyday!

They are really clunky and don't really feel cheap enough to be the unreliable jack of all trades that they are. The fact that they have trouble moving up the field or being deployed in useful ways just sort if cinches my poor opinion.

I guess there are a few I4 ap2 attacks to be had one something that might decide to fleet every once in a while, that also adds to saturation for other dumb monsters or drakes or vendettas in your list, but those units cost a lot already and so do your troop blocks. Don't even get me started on how unexcited I am about paying that much for one reaper/TLLC/MM that I might not always be getting to shoot.

They've given everyone great ways of dealing with dreads without really improving them. They don't even contest anymore so if they aren't right in your face or laying down a withering hail of fire, you feel like you can just go about your business and hope you don't have to get tied down in it for too long. Hellbrutes are really sad because they don't even have a mechanic to get themselves in a place to be a silver bullet or become a nuisance.

If you have spawn or suicide bikes you can use them to grab a target and your brute to get there eventually to make a fuss. You can try to get one with a medium range kit to somewhere you know your enemy will want to go.

I think I might try a dual fist version. Use it the same way dreads were used last codex, run it towards my opponents line. Once you get within 12" you could always try for a long range charge. If I roll fire frenzy, oh well...

Yea all those frenzy results only come up when you lose a hull point. At most it might be an issue twice per game, that is if they shoot it remove a hull point, leave it alone for the rest of the turn, shoot it again on another turn for just a hull point. Third time it is dead, so the frenzy should not really factor in to much in useful-ness. It requires your opponent dedicating fire towards it without killing it. I can live with that.