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 TheCaptain wrote:


Chill.

By tilting the model, you're changing the model's position, effectively moding its 45 degree firing arc. Simple as that. Under your logic, if I never move the base, and turn my valk around on it, I could fire at stuff behind it. Unfortunately, that's not how it works.

No. If you take the thing off its base and turn it around, you're repositioning the model because the flight stand is moulded to only fit in the slot on the bottom of the valk one way round. If your valk fits either way, you've built the model in a nonstandard way which I believe comes under 'modelling for advantage'.

Simply tipping the nose up or down on its mount is no different from turning the turret on a predator.

As for the turret idea, I believe that's what the forge world vendetta conversion actually did. It looks dumb.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:


Chill.

By tilting the model, you're changing the model's position, effectively moding its 45 degree firing arc. Simple as that. Under your logic, if I never move the base, and turn my valk around on it, I could fire at stuff behind it. Unfortunately, that's not how it works.

No. If you take the thing off its base and turn it around, you're repositioning the model because the flight stand is moulded to only fit in the slot on the bottom of the valk one way round. If your valk fits either way, you've built the model in a nonstandard way which I believe comes under 'modelling for advantage'.

Simply tipping the nose up or down on its mount is no different from turning the turret on a predator.

As for the turret idea, I believe that's what the forge world vendetta conversion actually did. It looks dumb.

Right, show me where tipping the model is allowed?

I know you can turn the gun to draw LOS on a Turret mounted weapon, however nowhere could I find permission to tilt/tip/lean/etc the model to squeek extra range in

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Simply tipping the nose up or down on its mount is no different from turning the turret on a predator.

First of all, the flight base is just a Plus sign shape. If fits forwards or backwards; try it.

Secondly, tipping a model is nothing like rotating a turret. Rotating a turret is allowed because it's a mobile armament. It's a turret.

Vendetta guns are fixed, wing-mounted guns. No rotation or swiveling. We're lucky they even get the 45 degree thing.

Tilting your model's position on the base is equivalent to modifying it's modeling for your own tactical advantage. Which is not okay.

 TheCaptain wrote:
First of all, the flight base is just a Plus sign shape. If fits forwards or backwards; try it.

It's a plus shape, but not a straight vertical one. I don't know about the Vendetta (since the only one I have is the old all-resin kit), but my Vultures won't fit on their stands unless they're facing the correct direction. If you try to put it on backwards the slanted parts don't line up right and it won't work.

(Of course tipping it up or down doesn't work very well either, you can get a few degrees of elevation if you're willing to risk having the model fall off and break, but not enough to significantly change your minimum range.)

Vendetta guns are fixed, wing-mounted guns. No rotation or swiveling. We're lucky they even get the 45 degree thing.

Where does it state that? It's probably intended to be that way, but if we're to the point of discussing the legality of repositioning your model on the base then you might as well just take advantage of the fact that GW never specifies how or where the guns are mounted.

The FW conversion kits has them as hull mounts.

Furyou Miko - again, you are changing the orietntation of your model, and have no permission to do so

Are you altering the weapons mounting? No, you are chanigng the entire MODELS orientation

That is cheating. Pure and simple

 Peregrine wrote:
Lesson to be learned here: since the rules never specify where the Vendetta's lascannons are or how they're mounted, put them on turret mounts that can shoot straight down. Problem solved.

No way and if Anyone saw that they would never play you they are forward mounted straight shots hoever the side mounted heavy bolter are not.

Indeed - its a good way to not get friendly pick up games (MFA on something as undercosted as a vendetta? Please!) and would have your model played as stock in any tournament i run or know of.

Considering that vertical ascent and descent isn't taken into account by the in game movement of the aircraft, insisting that a vehicle cannot fire because it's current position puts it's front arc beyond it's target is ignoring the fact that it could be diving at that time, and pulling up at the beginning of the next movement phase. Frankly, I see no reason why a flyer should be able to shoot something directly in front of it's base.

Obviously, the problem is that this is a narrativistic interpretation. Others prefer to play to the exact letter of the rules, and fair play to them, but I feel that this leads to a bit of a farcical situation where these flyers drive around on a flat level like ground vehicles.

I'm not modelling for advantage.

The kit is designed to do that.

In any case, saying that an airplane can't point its nose up or down is straight-up stupid.

No, the kit is not designed to swivel up and down.

You have no permission to alter the attitude of the entire model just because you say you can

Following the rules in an abstract game based around abstract rules is not stupid. Not following them without mutual consent IS cheating.

htj - there are indeed rules for divebombing - check them out. (ork) When people are willing to take the chance of fiery, explosive death they can swivel their model (not weapon mounting, remeber - the whole entire model, something not allowed anywhere in rules) to try to point at the ground.

This is one of the few clearly designed in ways to limit the absurd nature of flyers in 40k - that they have a limited fire arc up AND down. Circumventing this by altering the position of the *model* in a way not allowed by th erules is cheating, unless both players agree it is allowed

Is it clearly designed? I've not noticed anything saying that the 45 degree arc is in effect vertically as well as horizontally, but I don't claim to be 100% on the rules. If there is such a ruling, I'll gladly accept it. Also, does the Ork rule explicitly state that the 45 degree rule is not in effect when it is used?

To be fair, most of the "nerd rage" about fliers come from a few poorly adapted rules from 5th to 6th. The fliers that most of the rage centers around are the vendetta and secondarily the night scythe.

The night scythe because of the dedicated transport rule that allows it to be slammed, and the vendetta that was originally released in 5th, when flier rules were but a twinkle in the GW marketing department's eye. Back in 5th, the vendetta was an impossible to hide tank, so AV12 made sense to keep the suckers alive. That said, they were still obscenely good for their points. Now they've got flier rules tacked on for free and they're ludicrous.

Personally, I've found it unnecessary to play lots of dedicated anti-flier because a) I play orks, which can bring down the odd av11 flier that gets run for novelty and b) I learned my lesson about playing the one guy in our club that brings eight flier bases as calks and vendettas back in fifth when I played a game against twenty-odd AOBR terminators. "Ok, this one is draigo and this one with his arm up has a psycannon and this dreadnought is a psyfleman"

Everyone else in the club is fine.

Yes, there is such a rule - we wouldnt have continually referenced it otherwise. Its why being on such a large flight stand is a blessing and a curse - means when you see you can generally avoid cover saves, as you are rarely shooting through one unit into another, but it means that once you get too close you cannot see them.

The Ork dive bomb rule just demonstrates that diving towards the ground isnt a 100% safe, risk free proposition. Have a read of the rules for it.

Right, your going to have to help me out here. I know about the 45 degree fire arc from mounted weapons, but the depiction I've seen in the book only show it horizontally applied. I'm not saying it's not there, I'm asking where it is.

I don't have access to the Ork dive bomb rule, so I can't check it out myself, unfortunately. Does it remove the 45 degree ruling or doesn't it?

Furyou Miko wrote:Sorry, I've just had people fiercely trying to argue that if you're within a certain distance of a flyer, it can't shoot you because of the 45 degree vertical firing arc rule and refusing to believe otherwise until I get one of my planes out and physically demonstrate that aircraft can pitch up and down (even on the models - if you don't glue the flight stands in, it's easy enough to angle them forward or back ) that it really bugs me when people insist on said mythical "minimum range".

That sounds awfully dodgy. Good luck getting that to fly in a major tourney

Hollowman wrote: You can't ignore a flyer list. One or two flyers, you can ignore. A good flyer list will decimate you if you lack the weaponry to bring them down, and many lists cannot bring more than a single quad gun to reliably bring down flyers. That dies first, and then troops start dying. Sure, some armies have the bodies or the firepower to ignore or kill flyers, but some armies do not. No army can prepare itself to face serious flyer lists without damaging it's ability to take on most other lists.

A good flyer list isn't shooting anything if you've got the midfield properly controlled when they arrive. Get inside their minimum movement/shooting range and they can't do a thing. If you can't handle a flyer army, then you need to improve your list and/or play.

 htj wrote:
Right, your going to have to help me out here. I know about the 45 degree fire arc from mounted weapons, but the depiction I've seen in the book only show it horizontally applied. I'm not saying it's not there, I'm asking where it is.

I don't have access to the Ork dive bomb rule, so I can't check it out myself, unfortunately. Does it remove the 45 degree ruling or doesn't it?

I am currenty in cambodia, slightly far from my rulebook. However, stick a thread in YMDC (or easier - use google to search dakkadakk by using site:dakkadakka.com in the search terms) if you dont believe me

I also dont have the WD with me. It was more a throw away comment on the fact that claiming something is "narrative" when we have a ruleset for a narrative effect (divebombing) that entails risk to claim it is "narrative" to do the same but without any risk misses the point.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 htj wrote:
Right, your going to have to help me out here. I know about the 45 degree fire arc from mounted weapons, but the depiction I've seen in the book only show it horizontally applied. I'm not saying it's not there, I'm asking where it is.

I don't have access to the Ork dive bomb rule, so I can't check it out myself, unfortunately. Does it remove the 45 degree ruling or doesn't it?

I am currenty in cambodia, slightly far from my rulebook. However, stick a thread in YMDC (or easier - use google to search dakkadakk by using site:dakkadakka.com in the search terms) if you dont believe me

I also dont have the WD with me. It was more a throw away comment on the fact that claiming something is "narrative" when we have a ruleset for a narrative effect (divebombing) that entails risk to claim it is "narrative" to do the same but without any risk misses the point.

I'm not saying I don't believe you, nos, I've seen you post enough to know that you're normally accurate on rules. I'm asking you if you can tell me where it is. You can't, you're in Cambodia, fair enough. I'll have a look around, or failing success there, have a look when I get home.

I disagree about the narrative effect of the Ork rule though. Orks are famously reckless, hence a risk when they divebomb to a crazed extent, but there is no reason to suggest that a flyer isn't diving at a less acute angle when it fires. If it's got a 45 degree vertical arc when firing, it would only need to be dipped 45 degrees in order to shoot below it. And if the Ork rule doesn't explicitly override the 45 degree angling, and in fact makes no alteration to it's ability to fire, this says way more about the nature of the pilot than it does the nature of the flight path.

As I said - try google search, with site: dakkadakka.com in the search terms bar - you should see plenty of references. I just hate not being able to cite, knew i should have put the paperback in my hand luggage

Hmm, finding huge amounts of opinion and very little citation. Screw it, nearly finished work, I'll have a read when I get home.

I really ought to get Dark Vengeance, those little rulebooks are so handy.

 htj wrote:
I've not noticed anything saying that the 45 degree arc is in effect vertically as well as horizontally, but I don't claim to be 100% on the rules.

It's on page 72 of the BRB - vehicle weapons and LOS. "In the rare cases where it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 degrees, even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that!"

 Furyou Miko wrote:
In any case, saying that an airplane can't point its nose up or down is straight-up stupid.

Saying a space marine model couldn't lie down to get out of LOS is stupid too.

But it's the rules. Of a game we play. With plastic toys that are SUPPOSED to be glued to get her and set in a static-modeled position.

It's 40k. Everything is stupid. Deal with it and stop trying to weasel yourself into a little advantage; that's how you get people whining about you. If you really need to tilt your model to get kills, you're likely not very good, and you must cause a rules debate every time you do it.

That sounds super annoying.

Here is my problem with flyer spam.

They are more resilient than people think they are and should be for point cost.
Majority of armies don't have the tools to bring them down
Not fun to play against the army when you can't damage it.

You have a 16% chance to hit a flyer and if your weapon is strength 6 you only have a 2.8% chance to Pen and 2.8% chance to glance for a total of 5.6% of doing something to the flyer. Now they have a 33% chance of evading that item before you roll to pen so you have 1.8% chance of destroying that flyer with one single shot.

If you look at say an auto cannon single shot it’s going to have a 2.*% chance to glance and a 5.6% to Pen. Which is better but to destroy a flyer it’s going to come down to a low number much like above. Now you start looking at massing those numbers of shots, you will notice that it gets ridiculously high as 24 shots say from Scatter laser War walkers will only have a 10% chance of destroying it before saves. Which means you’re going to end up glancing flyers to death before you can bring it down with a destroy result.

Which comes to the point you say, why not grab units that have sky fire? Well sky fire is too limited to the older codexes as Elder have to grab a fortification which doesn't result in the tools you need. You don't have them available to you. On top of that if you do have those tools they are so limited that the spam army might lose one Flyer but the 7 or 9 other flyers will be able to concentration their firepower on the one or multiple units and kill it.

Then goes back to the point of you are playing an army that you don't have access to the tools to deal with it, if you did bring some items you have a chance of dealing with it. Which means I am sitting here for 2 hours at the mercy of my opponent and I have nothing I can do about it expect hope I somehow break the bell curve in math (isn't going to happen) because when I shoot at it I don't do anything.

You can play and cover the areas but there is still a lot of fire power coming out from those nightscyhtes 54 Telsa shots is still a lot to deal with in a 2000 point game as it on average kills 13 marines a turn if they can bear all their arms on units. When Necrons can drop models out on turn 5 they have a chance of winning on objectives. If you’re playing Kill points you’re not going to be able to win as they will have two or three kill points and you might have one as the sheer number of firepower to bring down one flyer will have to be your whole army.


Also armies having one flyer isn't an answer to that type of list as even if its AV 12, they have too many high strengeth shots to bring it down.

Darkwynn wrote:
Here is my problem with flyer spam.

They are more resilient than people think they are and should be for point cost.
Majority of armies don't have the tools to bring them down
Not fun to play against the army when you can't damage it.

You have a 16% chance to hit a flyer and if your weapon is strength 6 you only have a 2.8% chance to Pen and 2.8% chance to glance for a total of 5.6% of doing something to the flyer. Now they have a 33% chance of evading that item before you roll to pen so you have 1.8% chance of destroying that flyer with one single shot.

If you look at say an auto cannon single shot it’s going to have a 2.*% chance to glance and a 5.6% to Pen. Which is better but to destroy a flyer it’s going to come down to a low number much like above. Now you start looking at massing those numbers of shots, you will notice that it gets ridiculously high as 24 shots say from Scatter laser War walkers will only have a 10% chance of destroying it before saves. Which means you’re going to end up glancing flyers to death before you can bring it down with a destroy result.

Which comes to the point you say, why not grab units that have sky fire? Well sky fire is too limited to the older codexes as Elder have to grab a fortification which doesn't result in the tools you need. You don't have them available to you. On top of that if you do have those tools they are so limited that the spam army might lose one Flyer but the 7 or 9 other flyers will be able to concentration their firepower on the one or multiple units and kill it.

Then goes back to the point of you are playing an army that you don't have access to the tools to deal with it, if you did bring some items you have a chance of dealing with it. Which means I am sitting here for 2 hours at the mercy of my opponent and I have nothing I can do about it expect hope I somehow break the bell curve in math (isn't going to happen) because when I shoot at it I don't do anything.

You can play and cover the areas but there is still a lot of fire power coming out from those nightscyhtes 54 Telsa shots is still a lot to deal with in a 2000 point game as it on average kills 13 marines a turn if they can bear all their arms on units. When Necrons can drop models out on turn 5 they have a chance of winning on objectives. If you’re playing Kill points you’re not going to be able to win as they will have two or three kill points and you might have one as the sheer number of firepower to bring down one flyer will have to be your whole army.


Also armies having one flyer isn't an answer to that type of list as even if its AV 12, they have too many high strengeth shots to bring it down.

First point: The only flyer I agree is underpriced is the Vendetta. As far as the other two spammable flyers go ('spammable' meaning you can get more than three in one FOC), Valkyries are expensive and cannot deal with vehicles, Night Scythes look fancy but they're running around with a S7/AP-/Assault 4 gun, meaning that they can't actually do a lot of damage. Most other flyers are limited to 3 in a list, mitigating the amount of damage they can do. As far as their ability to take damage, let's compare an Ork Flakkatrukk (75pts) to a Night Scythe (100pts): 30% chance to down it outright in one turn of shooting (33% chance to hit and 50% chance to get a glancing hit, 16.5% chance to glance off every shot, subtract that from 1 to get an 83.5% chance for the flyer to not be glanced every shot, square that to get the chance of the Flakkatrukk missing twice out of four shots for 69.7%, meaning there's a 30.3% chance of the Flakkatrukk downing the Night Scythe in one turn of shooting from hull points alone, ignoring the chance of downing it off the damage tables off every shot). Flyers are much more resilient than normal vehicles providing you attack them with single-shot high-Strength weapons that you'd attack normal vehicles with, you're supposed to go after them with mid-Strength high-rate-of-fire weapons. What happens when I pit my twin-Scatter-Laser War Walker (a mere sixty points) against that same Night Scythe (100pts): 30% chance for the one War Walker to down the flyer (17% chance to hit and 33% chance to glance, making it a 5.6% chance for each shot to glance, now subtract that from 1 and take the 6th power of the resulting number to represent the chance of missing on six of eight shots to get 70.7% chance of it surviving, meaning it's got a 30% chance to go down). The lesson: You kill flyers by throwing a large quantity of fire at them, so find something in your list that gives you a large quantity of long-range mid-Strength shots. They're not necessarily absurdly durable for their cost.

Second point: This ignores Imperial Armor Aeronautica; Saber batteries, the Whirlwind Hyperios, the Flakkatrukk, and the Firestorm tank are all very easy to convert from plain old plastic bits lying around, as a matter of fact, meaning that the only armies left out in the cold on the anti-aircraft front are the Tau (who have access to allied detachments and are likely to access anti-aircraft upgrades in their new Codex anyway) and the Tyranids (who I agree are screwed). Everyone except the 'Nids has easy access to at least one nasty anti-flyer weapon.

Third point: You can't damage it because you didn't bring any anti-air weapons. That's your fault, not theirs. Am I allowed to whine about how unfair Land Raiders are because I left behind my Bright Lances in my Eldar army? No. I suck it up and build a better list next time.

I'm also pretty curious as to why you're factoring in Evade saves for everything any flyer does ever. Evade is a conscious choice the flyer must make to gain a Jink save at the expense of only being able to fire Snap Shots next turn, not something they automatically get. And your foe with the Necrons is doing something funny; 54 Tesla Destructor shots from those Night Scythes has to come off 13.5 Night Scythes, which is technically impossible because you can't get half a Night Scythe, and even if it's only 13 that's still at absolute minimum a 2,355pt list, who are killing a little under thirteen Space Marines per turn assuming the absolute best circumstances for them (read: everyone's lined up out in the open doing nothing) and the army has no heavy tanks. So either your math is off or the other guy is cheating, and you're griping about flyers being broken because you're facing off against a man who's cheating and using a list at least 25% larger than he's allowed.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


First point: The only flyer I agree is underpriced is the Vendetta. As far as the other two spammable flyers go ('spammable' meaning you can get more than three in one FOC), Valkyries are expensive and cannot deal with vehicles, Night Scythes look fancy but they're running around with a S7/AP-/Assault 4 gun

The scythe is, what, 100 points?

and it's s7 Assault 4 TESLA.

100 points is like, ridiculously cheap.

Furyou being accused of using shady practices for her advantage? I don't believe it!!!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I'm not modelling for advantage.

The kit is designed to do that.

No it isn't. The only reason you can move it up and down is because the parts aren't made to absurdly tight tolerances and you can shift them a bit out of alignment without having the whole thing fall apart. There's absolutely nothing in the design of the model that suggests it's deliberately created to allow you to assemble it with the base off-center in the socket.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:
Here is my problem with flyer spam.

They are more resilient than people think they are and should be for point cost.
Majority of armies don't have the tools to bring them down
Not fun to play against the army when you can't damage it.

You have a 16% chance to hit a flyer and if your weapon is strength 6 you only have a 2.8% chance to Pen and 2.8% chance to glance for a total of 5.6% of doing something to the flyer. Now they have a 33% chance of evading that item before you roll to pen so you have 1.8% chance of destroying that flyer with one single shot.

If you look at say an auto cannon single shot it’s going to have a 2.*% chance to glance and a 5.6% to Pen. Which is better but to destroy a flyer it’s going to come down to a low number much like above. Now you start looking at massing those numbers of shots, you will notice that it gets ridiculously high as 24 shots say from Scatter laser War walkers will only have a 10% chance of destroying it before saves. Which means you’re going to end up glancing flyers to death before you can bring it down with a destroy result.

Which comes to the point you say, why not grab units that have sky fire? Well sky fire is too limited to the older codexes as Elder have to grab a fortification which doesn't result in the tools you need. You don't have them available to you. On top of that if you do have those tools they are so limited that the spam army might lose one Flyer but the 7 or 9 other flyers will be able to concentration their firepower on the one or multiple units and kill it.

Then goes back to the point of you are playing an army that you don't have access to the tools to deal with it, if you did bring some items you have a chance of dealing with it. Which means I am sitting here for 2 hours at the mercy of my opponent and I have nothing I can do about it expect hope I somehow break the bell curve in math (isn't going to happen) because when I shoot at it I don't do anything.

You can play and cover the areas but there is still a lot of fire power coming out from those nightscyhtes 54 Telsa shots is still a lot to deal with in a 2000 point game as it on average kills 13 marines a turn if they can bear all their arms on units. When Necrons can drop models out on turn 5 they have a chance of winning on objectives. If you’re playing Kill points you’re not going to be able to win as they will have two or three kill points and you might have one as the sheer number of firepower to bring down one flyer will have to be your whole army.


Also armies having one flyer isn't an answer to that type of list as even if its AV 12, they have too many high strengeth shots to bring it down.

First point: The only flyer I agree is underpriced is the Vendetta. As far as the other two spammable flyers go ('spammable' meaning you can get more than three in one FOC), Valkyries are expensive and cannot deal with vehicles, Night Scythes look fancy but they're running around with a S7/AP-/Assault 4 gun, meaning that they can't actually do a lot of damage. Most other flyers are limited to 3 in a list, mitigating the amount of damage they can do. As far as their ability to take damage, let's compare an Ork Flakkatrukk (75pts) to a Night Scythe (100pts): 30% chance to down it outright in one turn of shooting (33% chance to hit and 50% chance to get a glancing hit, 16.5% chance to glance off every shot, subtract that from 1 to get an 83.5% chance for the flyer to not be glanced every shot, square that to get the chance of the Flakkatrukk missing twice out of four shots for 69.7%, meaning there's a 30.3% chance of the Flakkatrukk downing the Night Scythe in one turn of shooting from hull points alone, ignoring the chance of downing it off the damage tables off every shot). Flyers are much more resilient than normal vehicles providing you attack them with single-shot high-Strength weapons that you'd attack normal vehicles with, you're supposed to go after them with mid-Strength high-rate-of-fire weapons. What happens when I pit my twin-Scatter-Laser War Walker (a mere sixty points) against that same Night Scythe (100pts): 30% chance for the one War Walker to down the flyer (17% chance to hit and 33% chance to glance, making it a 5.6% chance for each shot to glance, now subtract that from 1 and take the 6th power of the resulting number to represent the chance of missing on six of eight shots to get 70.7% chance of it surviving, meaning it's got a 30% chance to go down). The lesson: You kill flyers by throwing a large quantity of fire at them, so find something in your list that gives you a large quantity of long-range mid-Strength shots. They're not necessarily absurdly durable for their cost.

Second point: This ignores Imperial Armor Aeronautica; Saber batteries, the Whirlwind Hyperios, the Flakkatrukk, and the Firestorm tank are all very easy to convert from plain old plastic bits lying around, as a matter of fact, meaning that the only armies left out in the cold on the anti-aircraft front are the Tau (who have access to allied detachments and are likely to access anti-aircraft upgrades in their new Codex anyway) and the Tyranids (who I agree are screwed). Everyone except the 'Nids has easy access to at least one nasty anti-flyer weapon.

Third point: You can't damage it because you didn't bring any anti-air weapons. That's your fault, not theirs. Am I allowed to whine about how unfair Land Raiders are because I left behind my Bright Lances in my Eldar army? No. I suck it up and build a better list next time.

I'm also pretty curious as to why you're factoring in Evade saves for everything any flyer does ever. Evade is a conscious choice the flyer must make to gain a Jink save at the expense of only being able to fire Snap Shots next turn, not something they automatically get. And your foe with the Necrons is doing something funny; 54 Tesla Destructor shots from those Night Scythes has to come off 13.5 Night Scythes, which is technically impossible because you can't get half a Night Scythe, and even if it's only 13 that's still at absolute minimum a 2,355pt list, who are killing a little under thirteen Space Marines per turn assuming the absolute best circumstances for them (read: everyone's lined up out in the open doing nothing) and the army has no heavy tanks. So either your math is off or the other guy is cheating, and you're griping about flyers being broken because you're facing off against a man who's cheating and using a list at least 25% larger than he's allowed.

okay, so let me get this straight that your first point to counter my argument is you should go look in the Forge world book for the Flak truck? Which is silly because majority of tournaments don't allow forge world yet so keep it into the realm of possibility.

Second, don't correct my math when you don't understand your own math. I used and even pointed out that high strengthen weapons are the best chance of hitting flyers. your fitting the average and not doing it correctly. All your stating that you have a chance of glancing the flyer. That is it.

Break down of the math follows as is in attachments.

Even with your 24 warwalker example twin linked you only have a 18.5% chance to destroy it if he doesn't evade. He he does evade you have a 12.7% chance of destroying him.

so your 160 unit of three war walkers can barely touch the flyer, now look at the 110 Night scythe which your forgetting the TELSA Rule that on a 6 it includes two extra hits which is where you get the 54 hits from 9 nightscythes. The Telsa has a 27% chance of doing a Hull point which is more of a threat then anything else because the war walker has two hull points which means on average it can kill one war walker when it fires at it.

You can't use Forgeworld as your only example to bring the tools because that isn't a commonly open option.

Third point... I HAVE NO CONSTRUCTIVE RESPONSE -Mannahnin, that is all I got because your other two points don't hold water and you have no idea what your talking about.

Darkwynn wrote:
okay, so let me get this straight that your first point to counter my argument is you should go look in the Forge world book for the Flak truck? Which is silly because majority of tournaments don't allow forge world yet so keep it into the realm of possibility.

Then the problem isn't that flyers are too powerful, it's that major tournaments refuse to use the actual rules of 40k as published by GW and remove the counters that are supposed to keep flyers under control. The solution isn't to cripple flyers, the solution is to stop adding house rules that break the game.

You can't use Forgeworld as your only example to bring the tools because that isn't a commonly open option.

Sure it is. FW is part of standard 40k just like any codex is. Your personal dislike of FW options isn't relevant to overall game balance, any more than it would be relevant to base an analysis on how "overpowered" Land Raiders are on your personal dislike of melta guns.

Darkwynn wrote:

You can't use Forgeworld as your only example to bring the tools because that isn't a commonly open option.

Yes you can.

What you can't do is rule out stuff that is perfectly legal in standard 40k because certain tournaments have rules against it.

Third point... you are an idiot, that is all I got because your other two points don't hold water and you have no idea what your talking about.

Easy there princess; play nice.

 Peregrine wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:
okay, so let me get this straight that your first point to counter my argument is you should go look in the Forge world book for the Flak truck? Which is silly because majority of tournaments don't allow forge world yet so keep it into the realm of possibility.

Then the problem isn't that flyers are too powerful, it's that major tournaments refuse to use the actual rules of 40k as published by GW and remove the counters that are supposed to keep flyers under control. The solution isn't to cripple flyers, the solution is to stop adding house rules that break the game.

You can't use Forgeworld as your only example to bring the tools because that isn't a commonly open option.

Sure it is. FW is part of standard 40k just like any codex is. Your personal dislike of FW options isn't relevant to overall game balance, any more than it would be relevant to base an analysis on how "overpowered" Land Raiders are on your personal dislike of melta guns.

First you assume that I dislike Forgeworld which I don't. Saying that major tournaments refuse to use the actual rules of 40k is false. That is a perception and view by you. There are other people in the community that view them as not part of the 40k core rule set but as a supplement. Who is right? It doesn't matter in this discussion. If you go to a tournament that only uses the core rule set and does not allow Forgeworld what options do you have? very little to zero. GW has not pushed enough units to handle flyers across the core sets or books. By saying using Forgeworld is the only answer proves that the basic rule mechanic and how flyers work are broken till GW releases updated books to the core armies.