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I have never hated an army more.

mephiston? just lol. 250 points for godlike stats
furioso (with blood talons)?
Dante removing a wound from a model before even doing anything?
30 man death company?
Corbullo giving FNP to everyone within 6", and a 2+ fnp to himself?

People actually choose to play this army?

It isn't as bad as it sounds you learn to deal with mephiston (he doesn't have invul save so shoot him with everything you got or challenge him with a termie).

What i really hate from the BA are the damn priests giving FnP and FC to everything, you are pretty much fighting an army of plague berzerkers for 75% de price (with a little less WS and no defensive grenades but still)

Its the triple fast vindicators that does it for me

It's actually one of the most varied and diverse books out there for 40K

- Jumper List
- Golden Army
- Death Company list
- Tank Lists
- Deathstar Termy lists1
- 'March of the Ancient' Dread-lists
- Drop-Pod List
- MSU-Lists
- a slightly overpriced Airforce lists,

None of the above really play alike.

etc..

It's probably my favourite 5th Edition book.

eh, my brother has every single one of those units tailored to beat my orks basically.

Just reading the rules makes me wonder how the hell something like this can actually get approved..

Counters are easy to find for everything in the end, I used to play a BA player alot, I eventually found a counter to everything he changed after a a game or so, but you can't really counter FnP or at least not counter it as far as I knew then. He doesn't play anymore so I don't have to worry about it as much. I do love that book though, especially the Necron bromance going on in the background.

 Zweischneid wrote:
It's actually one of the most varied and diverse books out there for 40K

- Jumper List
- Golden Army
- Death Company list
- Tank Lists
- Deathstar Termy lists1
- 'March of the Ancient' Dread-lists
- MSU-Lists
- a slightly overpriced Airforce lists,

None of the above really play alike.

etc..

It's probably my favourite 5th Edition book.

Amen, Zweis!

Adapt overcome, OP!

Dragonzord wrote:
I have never hated an army more.

mephiston? just lol. 250 points for godlike stats
furioso (with blood talons)?
Dante removing a wound from a model before even doing anything?
30 man death company?
Corbullo giving FNP to everyone within 6", and a 2+ fnp to himself?

People actually choose to play this army?

1.) His stats are phenomenal but he is not an IC and he only has a PW so there are things he can't handle. He is a lot of points for one infantry model who has to go by himself.
2.) If you give them Blood Talons they can destroy hordes but are not as effective versus vehicles and MC's.
3.) That is not even the most ridiculous part of Dante. He makes SG troops which is key but he now has a power axe so he is considered to be nerfed.
4.) 30 man Death Company costs 600 points base. Once you add upgrades it can get even more expensive and they are non-scoring.
5.) All Sang Priests give FnP to all units within 6". He is pretty good but he can't take a jump pack (I wish he could) and is not OP.

Yes, I actually play this army and no it is not OP.

Sang Priests CAN take a jump pack.

Obviously the OP hasn't ever played Grey Knights.

Mephiston is basically a bully, he owns weak squads and vehicles but meltas and plasmas own him, most tough cc units like Ghazgull ,Abaddon, Lysander etc will own him easily. a squad of assault termies will take his lunch money. Any unit with an instant death weapon (like say every unit in the GK codex) can kill him in one hit - Meph is a good unit but hardly OP in 6th, you just need to know his weaknesses which many players dont take the time to do.

As for the rest of the codex is a reasonably balanced marine codex, GK and space wolves are considerably more points efficient which is why they are the premier marine codexes on the tournament scene.

 Weeheee wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:
I have never hated an army more.

mephiston? just lol. 250 points for godlike stats
furioso (with blood talons)?
Dante removing a wound from a model before even doing anything?
30 man death company?
Corbullo giving FNP to everyone within 6", and a 2+ fnp to himself?

People actually choose to play this army?

1.) His stats are phenomenal but he is not an IC and he only has a PW so there are things he can't handle. He is a lot of points for one infantry model who has to go by himself.
2.) If you give them Blood Talons they can destroy hordes but are not as effective versus vehicles and MC's.
3.) That is not even the most ridiculous part of Dante. He makes SG troops which is key but he now has a power axe so he is considered to be nerfed.
4.) 30 man Death Company costs 600 points base. Once you add upgrades it can get even more expensive and they are non-scoring.
5.) All Sang Priests give FnP to all units within 6". He is pretty good but he can't take a jump pack (I wish he could) and is not OP.

Yes, I actually play this army and no it is not OP.

Mephiston. Sanguine sword? How often do you really fail a psychic test... Transfixing gaze? as someone suggested, ghazghkull. takes his leadership to 5. STR10 weapon, vs t5 with 4 wounds with rerolls to hit and wound. Yes, i can totally see ghazzy coming out on top there.

Actually, the fact that dante can remove a wound from anything he wants just by deploying him is the worst thing that ive seen in a long time. Just pure rediculous, nothing should do that.

Non scoring death company doesnt really matter. Feel no pain, rage, furious charge, relentless. With the option of them all having power weapons, and jump packs. When they're done there'll be nothing the enemy has that can score either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

azala wrote:
Mephiston is basically a bully, he owns weak squads and vehicles but meltas and plasmas own him, most tough cc units like Ghazgull ,Abaddon, Lysander etc will own him easily. a squad of assault termies will take his lunch money. Any unit with an instant death weapon (like say every unit in the GK codex) can kill him in one hit - Meph is a good unit but hardly OP in 6th, you just need to know his weaknesses which many players dont take the time to do.

As for the rest of the codex is a reasonably balanced marine codex, GK and space wolves are considerably more points efficient which is why they are the premier marine codexes on the tournament scene.

uh, lets see. ghaz vs mephiston.

WS. Mephiston by 1
BS: Mephiston by 3
S: Mephiston by 1
T: Mephiston by 1
Wounds: Mephiston by 1
Initiative: Mephiston by 3
Attacks: Ghaz by 1
LD: mephiston by 1.

Not to mention ghaz has a power klaw, so attacks at initiative 1. Only T5, so can be killed instantly by the str10 sword. Isnt a psyker.

Please, tell me how ghaz can even hope to win such a fight.

Isn't Ghaz eternal warror?

And Ghaz gets his save, mephiston gets none. Ghaz hits on 4, wounds on 2. Game over for meph in 2 rounds isn't it?

Statistically Ghaz takes 0.7288 wounds from Mephiston (since his sword is AP3 and Ghaz is mega'd) while giving back wounds to Phisty.

Plus Ghaz can't be IDed.

Basically he wins because you can't read too well.

As most "Whaaaa, that is so CHEESY! Waaaaa" arguments, you haven't taken everything into consideration.

"CHEESE!!!!!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

Dragonzord wrote:

 Weeheee wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:
I have never hated an army more.

mephiston? just lol. 250 points for godlike stats
furioso (with blood talons)?
Dante removing a wound from a model before even doing anything?
30 man death company?
Corbullo giving FNP to everyone within 6", and a 2+ fnp to himself?

People actually choose to play this army?

1.) His stats are phenomenal but he is not an IC and he only has a PW so there are things he can't handle. He is a lot of points for one infantry model who has to go by himself.
2.) If you give them Blood Talons they can destroy hordes but are not as effective versus vehicles and MC's.
3.) That is not even the most ridiculous part of Dante. He makes SG troops which is key but he now has a power axe so he is considered to be nerfed.
4.) 30 man Death Company costs 600 points base. Once you add upgrades it can get even more expensive and they are non-scoring.
5.) All Sang Priests give FnP to all units within 6". He is pretty good but he can't take a jump pack (I wish he could) and is not OP.

Yes, I actually play this army and no it is not OP.

Mephiston. Sanguine sword? How often do you really fail a psychic test... Transfixing gaze? as someone suggested, ghazghkull. takes his leadership to 5. STR10 weapon, vs t5 with 4 wounds with rerolls to hit and wound. Yes, i can totally see ghazzy coming out on top there.

Actually, the fact that dante can remove a wound from anything he wants just by deploying him is the worst thing that ive seen in a long time. Just pure rediculous, nothing should do that.

Non scoring death company doesnt really matter. Feel no pain, rage, furious charge, relentless. With the option of them all having power weapons, and jump packs. When they're done there'll be nothing the enemy has that can score either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

azala wrote:
Mephiston is basically a bully, he owns weak squads and vehicles but meltas and plasmas own him, most tough cc units like Ghazgull ,Abaddon, Lysander etc will own him easily. a squad of assault termies will take his lunch money. Any unit with an instant death weapon (like say every unit in the GK codex) can kill him in one hit - Meph is a good unit but hardly OP in 6th, you just need to know his weaknesses which many players dont take the time to do.

As for the rest of the codex is a reasonably balanced marine codex, GK and space wolves are considerably more points efficient which is why they are the premier marine codexes on the tournament scene.

uh, lets see. ghaz vs mephiston.

WS. Mephiston by 1
BS: Mephiston by 3
S: Mephiston by 1
T: Mephiston by 1
Wounds: Mephiston by 1
Initiative: Mephiston by 3
Attacks: Ghaz by 1
LD: mephiston by 1.

Not to mention ghaz has a power klaw, so attacks at initiative 1. Only T5, so can be killed instantly by the str10 sword. Isnt a psyker.

Please, tell me how ghaz can even hope to win such a fight.

Oh I don't know, maybe the fact that he's immune to ID and has a 2+ armor save? How can Ghaz not win that challenge any given day of the week?

 motyak wrote:
Isn't Ghaz eternal warror?

And Ghaz gets his save, mephiston gets none. Ghaz hits on 4, wounds on 2. Game over for meph in 2 rounds isn't it?

So he is, i didnt read his adamanitum skill rule.

I just find it beyond stupid that for 25 points, mephiston gets all those stat bonus, and is a psyker with all the goodies too. And that people say he's not that good..

This thread is hilarious because Blood Angels have fallen out of the lime light as far as codices go. 6th Edition hit them pretty hard since vehicles took a hit and assault took a hit. Razorspam for BA isn't as good as it used to be, and Jump Infantry aren't that great because once they are within 12 inches to shoot at something its pretty much guaranteed that they get assaulted or they have to assault first.

Ghaz is pointed like he is because he's a force multiplier. Not just because of his stats.

ALL Mephiston has is his stats and personal abilities. He does dick for the rest of the army. If you can get around his abilities by, oh I don't know shooting him then he's just a waste of points.

Also, 30 man Death Company is ludicrously expensive and whatever they end up charging will likely be overkill. Corbulo is durable but not terribly deadly. Dante is an expensive character who has to hit at initiative 1. Furiosos are tough, and with Blood Talons they can mulch infantry squads while being nearly helpless against other walkers. Mephiston is scary, but has no invuln save. So yeah, this is actually all pretty reasonable and all the Chicken Littles got over it a long time ago.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Also, 30 man Death Company is ludicrously expensive and whatever they end up charging will likely be overkill. Corbulo is durable but not terribly deadly. Dante is an expensive character who has to hit at initiative 1. Furiosos are tough, and with Blood Talons they can mulch infantry squads while being nearly helpless against other walkers. Mephiston is scary, but has no invuln save. So yeah, this is actually all pretty reasonable and all the Chicken Littles got over it a long time ago.

Amen to this!

Know what's really funny?

Sticking Saint Celestine up against Mephiston.

Mephiston: RARGH! WS7! S10! Transfix!.. AP3?

Celestine: YAAAH! WS7! S... 3? AP... 3? Miraculous Intervention!

Celestine: attacks. Wounds using her Ardent Blade pseudopoison. Mephiston saves.

Mephiston: attacks second. Hits half the time. Wounds most of them. Celestine saves.

Several rounds later: Celestine fails a 2+ save. Dies. Gets back up again and charges!

Mephiston: ... WHAT THE HELL, WOMAN?!

Celestine: GIVE ME SPARKLY BABIES VAMPIRE BOY! (or something like that... she actually killed him after that.)

Dragonzord wrote:
I have never hated an army more.

mephiston? just lol. 250 points for godlike stats
furioso (with blood talons)?
Dante removing a wound from a model before even doing anything?
30 man death company?
Corbullo giving FNP to everyone within 6", and a 2+ fnp to himself?

People actually choose to play this army?

Is this a troll?

None of that is ridiculous at all.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:
I have never hated an army more.

mephiston? just lol. 250 points for godlike stats
furioso (with blood talons)?
Dante removing a wound from a model before even doing anything?
30 man death company?
Corbullo giving FNP to everyone within 6", and a 2+ fnp to himself?

People actually choose to play this army?

Is this a troll?

None of that is ridiculous at all.

It was when it came out, I remember sharing some of the same WTF zomg!! moments.

Now, not so much though

Mephiston only has a Force Sword so chuck anything with a 2+ save and an AP 2 attack (plasma/Power Fist) at him and he should die. A couple GK Daemon Hammer Termies will deal with him in stride. They take an average of 4 hits, 0.66 wounds and save 0.55, meaning they only take 0.11 wounds when Mephy charges. In return, 2 Paladins hit with 2 attacks, 2 wounds and have a good chance of activating their force weapons for ID. IIRC Force Weapons ignore Deny the Witch too. So stick in a Brother hood banner and your getting 3 hits and wounds and auto activation. For only 190 pts.

Send a vehicle, like a Dreadnought or Maulerfiend. They need 6s to glance with a 3 attacks (averaging 2 vs WS 1-8) and don't gain extra attacks or rerolls to wound from the Lightning Claw side of them.

Dante is pretty cool like that. Only hard counters would involve a little list tailoring/army tailoring. Bbring Nids and leave the Parasite and Primes at home. Play Guard and use a CCS. Bring a super powerful IC who doesn't become useless with those (Abaddon, Lysander) or a superweak character that hardly gets affected (Techpriest in a Guard army. The first two means that you have no ICs to affect. The 3rd means the effect is migitated (Abaddon would go to WS 6, W3, Int 5, A3+ 1 for 2 CCW +D6 for a Daemon Weapon) and finally the last one, by making sure you have a tiny little weakling means that any lower of combat stats is null.
Ps, BA player, Dante and Sanguinior work wonders as a team.


Costing 600pts no upgrades for 1 troops choice that can't claim objectives and requires an expensive Special Character to take multiples of.

He can be a great wound soaker. Stick him at the front of the unit and just take his 3+ armour, 2+FNP and 2+LOS. Solution? enough Str 8+, AP3-1 shots untill he fails a LOS. FNP is negated by ID. Which is also the way to deal with large inits of FNP marines. Vindicators.

/giggle mephiston is rather cute. 250 points for something that gets eaten up by terminators and a single volley of plasma from my veterans will remove him from play. Single model units make me laugh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also to the above poster. It's not 3+ 2+ then Los. It's 3+ 2+ or Los.

/shrug

I think Mephiston is certainly cheaper than a comparable Librarian + baby-sitting squad. Back in 5th, when having a Psychic Hood (or not having one) made a bigger difference, he probably was slightly undercosted.

But since we have Deny the Witch and all that (not to mention easier access to cherry-picking psychic defense through allies), his appeal has diminished.


But discounting Mephiston because he's unable to stand up to a dedicated plasma-volley always seemed misplaced. It's not like .. um .. Tigurius or Ahriman or whoever would fare much better. Considerably worse though by most measures (or, be considerably more expensive due to the need to add a squad to them).

Your evidence? LOS is taken after suffering a wound or unsaved wound. You take a wound, try to save it. Fail, then take FNP. Still fail then take a LOS.

Either way, he is unbelievably resilient.

I'd say mostly because " It's not 3+ 2+ then Los. It's 3+ 2+ or Los. " sounds fair...

So you say it because it sounds more fair? If that's the way you agree eith the other guy then fine, but I find nothing in the rulebook to support that.

Hey! OP! 5th Ed called, they want their hissy fit back!

 Deadshot wrote:
So you say it because it sounds more fair? If that's the way you agree eith the other guy then fine, but I find nothing in the rulebook to support that.

The core rulebook FAQ has it as Griddlelol says. You choose whether or not to take LOS first, then you make saves.

It was stupidly broken beforehand.