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This "can be instant deathed" crap and "can be grounded" crap is nothing but crap.
Everything in the game has a hard counter. Everything. Lets even look at good units:

Imperial Guard Veterans: Heavy Flamer!
... but they are in a chimera!
... ANY self respecting player would kill the Chimera first then use the heavy flamer! DUH! Veterans are TERRIBLE! How many armies have access to a heavy flamer?!? TOOO MANNYYY TOO COUNTTT@!!!1!!

Psyfilemen Dreadnaught: Meltagun!
... but you need to be close!
... ANY self respecting player would deep strike right next to you and melta your ass. Dummy. Psyfilmen are TERRIBLE! How many armies have access to a meltagun?!?! TOOO MANDSNDNNDNNNYTNT!!!11!!

So, the Daemon Prince is not bad because he can be killed. Every stupid model/unit in the game can be killed, and rather easily. Trying to argue something isn't good because it can be killed is like arguing that filet miginion is terrible because it is gone after you eat it.
There are valid reasons on why this guy could be bad:

Points: Are there units in the codex that fulfill a similar role for cheaper?
Competition in the FOC: Are there units in the same slot that compete and are needed more that this one?
Cost: is the model cost prohibitive in actual dollars (this matters believe it or not!)?
Role in the metagame: does the current format discourage this type of unit? Does it favor it?
List composition: does this unit effectively fill a needed battlefield role better than other units in your LIST?

Take your model, run it through that little list and figure out if your unit is bad.
I'm sorry but your "STR 10 INSTANT DEATH!" is invalid.

Grounding tests really take alot of the fear out of FMC. I mean marklights can trigger a grounding test.

Hey, ever got a kid's cheap markerlight flashed in your eye ? it's damn painful !
Think about that poor flying monstrosity eye's ! they hurt too (FMC should come with a compliment of tissues to remove tears from said FMC's eyes)

And a FMC flying over an IG platoon is like a chopper pilot getting blinded by a barrage of stroboscopic lights !

 Brymm wrote:
I think there is a spot for this guy. I can't imagine any army could ignore this guy, so they have to do SOMETHING. There is a chance that that something won't work.
Step 1: Swoop
Step 2: Fire Burning Brand
Step 3: ???
Step 4: PROFIT!!!

This guy has to compliment your list otherwise he'll be a wasted investment. Knowing that most armies have to deal with him, use him as an immediate threat while you turbo boost your Bikes foward, run your insanely fast Maulerfiends and Nurgle Spawn and make them pick. Something will hit that gun line and start wrecking shop... while your Marines roll up in Rhinos to clean up.
I like this guy!

Heldrake with the Baleflamer does the same job for a lot cheaper. I'd argue its more resilient than a Daemon Prince too.

I tried using the Daemon Prince, and I really want to like it. But in the new codex its just not cost effective.

 Brymm wrote:
This "can be instant deathed" crap and "can be grounded" crap is nothing but crap.
Everything in the game has a hard counter. Everything. Lets even look at good units:

Imperial Guard Veterans: Heavy Flamer!
... but they are in a chimera!
... ANY self respecting player would kill the Chimera first then use the heavy flamer! DUH! Veterans are TERRIBLE! How many armies have access to a heavy flamer?!? TOOO MANNYYY TOO COUNTTT@!!!1!!

Psyfilemen Dreadnaught: Meltagun!
... but you need to be close!
... ANY self respecting player would deep strike right next to you and melta your ass. Dummy. Psyfilmen are TERRIBLE! How many armies have access to a meltagun?!?! TOOO MANDSNDNNDNNNYTNT!!!11!!

So, the Daemon Prince is not bad because he can be killed. Every stupid model/unit in the game can be killed, and rather easily. Trying to argue something isn't good because it can be killed is like arguing that filet miginion is terrible because it is gone after you eat it.
There are valid reasons on why this guy could be bad:

Points: Are there units in the codex that fulfill a similar role for cheaper?
Competition in the FOC: Are there units in the same slot that compete and are needed more that this one?
Cost: is the model cost prohibitive in actual dollars (this matters believe it or not!)?
Role in the metagame: does the current format discourage this type of unit? Does it favor it?
List composition: does this unit effectively fill a needed battlefield role better than other units in your LIST?

Take your model, run it through that little list and figure out if your unit is bad.
I'm sorry but your "STR 10 INSTANT DEATH!" is invalid.

It's quite valid if you're used to the old one having EW, if you look at his huge points tag. Running a DP for C:CSM is taking a huge pricey risk that may pay out in some games

 XT-1984 wrote:


Heldrake with the Baleflamer does the same job for a lot cheaper. I'd argue its more resilient than a Daemon Prince too.

I tried using the Daemon Prince, and I really want to like it. But in the new codex its just not cost effective.

I would agree here. But a Lord, Bike, Burning Brand does it even BETTER!

DP is worth his points.
He just needs to be used correctly.

If you roll Iron Arm / Endurance that provides durability and allows you to be much more aggressive with its use.

If you dont roll useful support powers you need additional distractions so your DP doesnt get slain before he's even made it into combat. Totally dependant on situation and army faced but tactics need to be adopted to ensure he does what he needs to do.

He is a massive problem for any army. He needs to die and your opponent will know this. This can also be used to your advantage.

Driving him straight into a gun line of bolters isn't going to end well for you.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
It's quite valid if you're used to the old one having EW, if you look at his huge points tag. Running a DP for C:CSM is taking a huge pricey risk that may pay out in some games

Tyranid players feel for you. No really. We don't pay horrendous points for (F)MCs that don't have EW.

Yes, all of ours have T6 instead of T5 but that still leaves a lot of potential for ID - and we pay more overall.

 Brymm wrote:


So, the Daemon Prince is not bad because he can be killed. Every stupid model/unit in the game can be killed, and rather easily. Trying to argue something isn't good because it can be killed is like arguing that filet miginion is terrible because it is gone after you eat it.

Every unit has a hard counter. The DP, however, has several astonishingly soft counters. Even a mob of Necron Warriors or Guardsmen can put the hurt on a flying Prince merely by rapid-firing weapons that would make a Vendetta, Dread or Trygon laugh. And while yes, you can kill a Vendetta in one fell shot, it can be made redundant via cost, FOC flexibility and numbers, like Psyrifledreads. Not the case with DPs, definitely.

The loss of EW is the cherry on the crap sundae. I've lost DPs to simple rapid-firing bolters before, but at least I knew I was not going to just see it vanish from a single blow or shot: demolisher blasts, Dark Gates, railguns. Even in CC, which should be the spot where the Prince shines, you can just back you a bit into terrain and have him strike last, ensuring that he will eat power fists, poisoned weapons and the like.

 Brymm wrote:

Take your model, run it through that little list and figure out if your unit is bad.
I'm sorry but your "STR 10 INSTANT DEATH!" is invalid.

No one is claiming the unit is bad because it can be ID'd, they're claiming it's bad because it's around 300 points an can be ID'd. When you use strawman arguments to defend your point, it just goes to help those that disagre with you.

too many points that doesn't soak up the shots like other things at the same points cost do and doesn't put out enough damage to make it worth it. for example for almost to same price you can field 2 helldrakes kills more and is harder to kill

Some will argue that it's easy to take out 2 Heldrakes out of the sky... Str 10 weapons or a vendetta with 3 TL LC and all that... or that they are targets for massed fire rapid firing units...

I will take that Daemon Prince in my army for the exact same reason I take a Dakka Flyrant to lead my Tyranids... He's a FMC, he can shoot a squad of infantry and hurt it really badly just before charging it and when he decide to land he still is an awesome close combat fiend who can smash a wide variety of targets... ex.: a unit of terminator that just deep striked... those AP2 attacks at I8 are just monstruous.

The chaos that such a unit cause is generally worth the points on the model alone and the amount of fire he will take is just a bonus.

That guy is a beast and he's scary, what more could we ask?... well... a 25 pts decrease would be great .

Is he killable ? Entirely... but not easily if the player who controls him know what he's doing... anyway I wouldn't want an invencible model in my army, it would break the game.

Just my 2 cents.

We are just claiming that the new demon prince isn't as amazing as he looks, simply by the lack of eternal warrior. He's an expensive and deadly unit, but one wrong roll and he's toast.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Brymm wrote:

Take your model, run it through that little list and figure out if your unit is bad.
I'm sorry but your "STR 10 INSTANT DEATH!" is invalid.

No one is claiming the unit is bad because it can be ID'd, they're claiming it's bad because it's around 300 points an can be ID'd. When you use strawman arguments to defend your point, it just goes to help those that disagre with you.

300 points? Maybe if you're fully decking them out with Wings, power armor, three mastery levels, and a Chaos Artifact. A DP with wings and power armor will cost you 215 or 220 points. It's doable to sink 300 points, but I doubt most people are dropping that on a DP. The OP is talking about a 215 points.

I'm not saying that I think they are worth the points, but exaggerating your point is just as bad as someone using strawman arguments.

 kcwm wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Brymm wrote:

Take your model, run it through that little list and figure out if your unit is bad.
I'm sorry but your "STR 10 INSTANT DEATH!" is invalid.

No one is claiming the unit is bad because it can be ID'd, they're claiming it's bad because it's around 300 points an can be ID'd. When you use strawman arguments to defend your point, it just goes to help those that disagre with you.

300 points? Maybe if you're fully decking them out with Wings, power armor, three mastery levels, and a Chaos Artifact. A DP with wings and power armor will cost you 215 or 220 points. It's doable to sink 300 points, but I doubt most people are dropping that on a DP. The OP is talking about a 215 points.

I'm not saying that I think they are worth the points, but exaggerating your point is just as bad as someone using strawman arguments.

Excuse my numbers, I don't possess the CSM codex. I hardly think a over estimation is the equivalent of logical fallacies.

The setup I'm talking about is exactly 250 pts.
That's a DP with wings in a power armour, the MoT and the Burning Brand of Skalathrax (the S4, AP3 template (torrent) weapon).

Yes you could take 2 Heldrake for 340 pts and be better equipped, but for 90 more pts I do hope so!

Many people take MC's that are not FMC's and they cost about the same... Tyranids players being the main exemple... Yes I love my 210 pts Trygon and he doesn't fly...

He is a point sink but I will rate him according by the small questionnaire Brymm put up (it's a great way to rate a unit btw thx Brymm).

Are there units in the codex that fulfill a similar role for cheaper?
I could take 2 units that could, for the same amount of points, do the what he does... but they take two slots in my FOC.

Are there units in the same slot that compete and are needed more that this one?
Debatable... he is a great second (sacrificiable?) HQ choice. If we take for granted that all the unique characters in our HQ list will be the Warlord of the army, the DP is in competition with the Chaos Lord, the Sorcerer, the Dark Apostle and the Warpsmith. If no unique are taken then we can assume that either a Chaos Lord or a Sorcerer will be used as the Warlord. None of those choices are more needed than the DP, they all have different roles but they do not have his disruption capacity and they are not as powerful as single models. A well geared second HQ choice can easily go up to 180-240 pts too.

Is the model cost prohibitive in actual dollars (this matters believe it or not!)?
No. Also, many people already have a DP with wings that they want to shelve because they believe it's too expensive to field such a model but in itself and in comparison with other GW products, the DP is affordable.

Role in the metagame: does the current format discourage this type of unit? Does it favor it?
I believe any kind of flyer is encouraged by the new rules and the current format, we will see a lot more flyers from now on in every list as they definitly give an advantage to the player who have them and a disadvantage to the player who don't. Also, since the DP is a FMC he can be used to counter flyers with vector strike (even against AV12 flyers) and still shoot at another target with his Burning Brand he have more than one role he can fulfill.

List composition: does this unit effectively fill a needed battlefield role better than other units in your LIST?
Distracting fire magnet with a good save and many wound who can destroy infantry units and tank alike without too much trouble. Unless unlucky or badly played this model is sure to make his points back and he's a hard counter to something vital to win games and take objectives... troops...

To be toroughly tested .

 Griddlelol wrote:


No one is claiming the unit is bad because it can be ID'd, they're claiming it's bad because it's around 300 points an can be ID'd. When you use strawman arguments to defend your point, it just goes to help those that disagre with you.

Whoa, I see what you are saying but alas, that is also incorrect. Read from post 1 to the last one. Every other post is "can be one shotted! It stinks!" Read them. Straw man, out the window. I understand you may think he's bad for other reasons but that doesn't mean I can't say that he ISN'T bad because he can be instant deathed like others have claimed.
Oh and when you attempt to look snarky and point out that you know what a straw man argument is, it just makes people think you're much too smart to be playing with toys.
Don't give up on the Prince!
I will use the fluff gamer response: He's such a great looking model!

 Brymm wrote:

Whoa, I see what you are saying but alas, that is also incorrect. Read from post 1 to the last one. Every other post is "can be one shotted! It stinks!" Read them. Straw man, out the window. I understand you may think he's bad for other reasons but that doesn't mean I can't say that he ISN'T bad because he can be instant deathed like others have claimed.

You're quite right, I didn't think people were saying that, but apparently they were.

Oh and when you attempt to look snarky and point out that you know what a straw man argument is, it just makes people think you're much too smart to be playing with toys.

No such thing as too smart to play with toys.

Proxy wrote:
He's a FMC, he can shoot a squad of infantry and hurt it really badly just before charging it and when he decide to land he still is an awesome close combat fiend who can smash a wide variety of targets... ex.: a unit of terminator that just deep striked... those AP2 attacks at I8 are just monstruous.

He can only shoot with psychic powers, risking his crappy LD and being shut down (Runes of Warding and Shadow in the Warp can easily make him kill himself) or with the Brand, which can be put in better models. Also, if you want to fly around dropping templates, the Helldrake is more cost-efficient.

As for close combat, he's...decent, but no more than that. He will kill about 3-4 marines a turn, since sadly thw WS table never goes below a 3+, unlike BS. If those terminators you mean are assault terminators, though, he'll be lucky to kill one. And I8 is nice, but any smart player will put his important troops in cover when he's about, meaning you have the same Initiative as a Carfinex: 1.

It can lead to some scenarios of no good choice. I gave my old DP playtest last week and really needed to dislodge an enemy Dreadnought and all my meltas were on the other side of the table. It was in terrain, so if i charged it I could expect S10 hits at I4 insta-killing the Prince. I wussed out and used a vector strike that did nothing, then got hit the next turn by the thing's assault cannon and took a wound crashing down.

The Tzeentch Prince tends to be more expensive than the others due to buying mastery levels, but it's not really more survivable. Any army with half-decent anti-air will erase him in one turn.

 Sephyr wrote:
He can only shoot with psychic powers, risking his crappy LD and being shut down (Runes of Warding and Shadow in the Warp can easily make him kill himself) or with the Brand, which can be put in better models. Also, if you want to fly around dropping templates, the Helldrake is more cost-efficient.

As for close combat, he's...decent, but no more than that. He will kill about 3-4 marines a turn, since sadly thw WS table never goes below a 3+, unlike BS. If those terminators you mean are assault terminators, though, he'll be lucky to kill one. And I8 is nice, but any smart player will put his important troops in cover when he's about, meaning you have the same Initiative as a Carfinex: 1.

It can lead to some scenarios of no good choice. I gave my old DP playtest last week and really needed to dislodge an enemy Dreadnought and all my meltas were on the other side of the table. It was in terrain, so if i charged it I could expect S10 hits at I4 insta-killing the Prince. I wussed out and used a vector strike that did nothing, then got hit the next turn by the thing's assault cannon and took a wound crashing down.

The Tzeentch Prince tends to be more expensive than the others due to buying mastery levels, but it's not really more survivable. Any army with half-decent anti-air will erase him in one turn.

Ld 9 is not a crappy Ld, it's not the best around but it's still quite good. Anyway, I won't give him powers or psyker level, that would be too much for not much return, psychic powers being what they are now.

I agree that the Heldrake is more cost-efficient, but the DP job is something different, they do not have the same job and the same effect. I could argue that any army with half-decent anti-air will erase those in one turn too but there's no point to make there.

We can find soooo many situations where a DP would lose against many scary units... maybe my exemple against the Terminators wasn't the best one.. but still, there are many situations where the DP will be a great counter unit and win the day... even if it's just by being a denial unit dropping on an objective during the last turn... I remember Eldar players doing just that with a Falcon full of troops that did nothing the whole game except capture that objective 24" from its position.

As for being decent in close combat... well that means we have no good close combat units or character in our codex because when I look at his stats... no one have WS9, S6, I8 and 5 base attacks. Chaos Spawns could get lucky and get 6 attacks if the dice are with them but that's it. Also none of the other units or character in our codex have AP2 on all their attacks (except if they take a power axe but it means they have I1 then), a free attack at I10 on the charge (Hammer of Wrath) and the possibility to make 3 attacks at S10 instead of their regular attacks.

If that's only decent, then Kharn is kinda crappy in close combat too and Abaddon is somewhat good but not really...

Proxy wrote:

Ld 9 is not a crappy Ld, it's not the best around but it's still quite good. Anyway, I won't give him powers or psyker level, that would be too much for not much return, psychic powers being what they are now.

.......

As for being decent in close combat... well that means we have no good close combat units or character in our codex because when I look at his stats... no one have WS9, S6, I8 and 5 base attacks. Chaos Spawns could get lucky and get 6 attacks if the dice are with them but that's it. Also none of the other units or character in our codex have AP2 on all their attacks (except if they take a power axe but it means they have I1 then), a free attack at I10 on the charge (Hammer of Wrath) and the possibility to make 3 attacks at S10 instead of their regular attacks.

If that's only decent, then Kharn is kinda crappy in close combat too and Abaddon is somewhat good but not really...

LD 9 is bad if you are going to be rolling it constantly, which psykers will. By definition.

As for the Prince's CC power, it's just not reliable. If you are using him just to kill plain tacticals...there are better ways to do that. If he can expect to lose against CC heavy hitters and has to avoid them, he's weak. It's really quite simple.

Kharn is way cheaper than a Prince, hits harder, has more attacks, hits better, destroys tanks far better and can hide in a unit with a 2+ to toss ID attacks to his buddies, not to mention having grenades to fight at his full Ini every time. That's just CC; He can also hide in a transport, has a great Warlord Trait, and makes zerkers troops. I'd say he's a far better use of the HQ slot in general, and not just for CC.

Abaddon has better saves, can opt to spam tons of S5 AP2 attacks that re-roll to wound or hit hard enough to ID T4 and still re-roll to wound. He has the same Toughness as the DP but is an Eternal Warrior. Like Kharn, he can shift troublesome wounds to his escorting unit on a 2+. He doesn''t have grenades, though. Really the only way the DP tops both of them is mobility.

I'd prefer one of the force multiplier units as a Warlord or HQ and keep the aerial assault units as Heldrakes. Same thing, it can zoom around and drop templates on stuff (higher str templates too) and is much cheaper allowing you to take a few of them while still maintaining a good overall force. Tzeentch Prince is good but there are better ways to do what he does in the Codex while still allowing you to build a custom Lord or Sorcerer or to even take Abbie, Kharn, or Typhus depending on the build you are going for.

I've run the Dp of Tzeentch and I agree it's one of the best options, he's not BAD I quite liked a lvl 1 psyker as neither boon or bolt are bad for him as he can really benefit from the table. A 2+ rerolling armour is silly for example. The rerolls with power armour do really help.. That said, whilst mine hasn't been S10'd yet there is a fair amount of it, as well as force weapons etc there's a lot that will scare him which is less than ideal for a 300pt model and yes small fire does down them eventually to be railgunned or even just plasma gunned off the board.

Not a bad option, not at all a main stay or obvious choice in the book however.

C-Hydra

 Brymm wrote:


Take your model, run it through that little list and figure out if your unit is bad.
I'm sorry but your "STR 10 INSTANT DEATH!" is invalid.

Look dude, there aren't *ANY* other 300 point models that I know of that can be insta-killed with a single shot.

Most big monsters cost half that much and can't be insta-killed. Hell nurgle spawn or tomb spiders are a steal at 30 or so points and are immune to S:10.

Yes, he isn't bad because he can be instantly killed. He is bad because he costs 300 points and can be instantly killed.

Kevlar wrote:

 Brymm wrote:


Take your model, run it through that little list and figure out if your unit is bad.
I'm sorry but your "STR 10 INSTANT DEATH!" is invalid.

Look dude, there aren't *ANY* other 300 point models that I know of that can be insta-killed with a single shot.

Most big monsters cost half that much and can't be insta-killed. Hell nurgle spawn or tomb spiders are a steal at 30 or so points and are immune to S:10.

Yes, he isn't bad because he can be instantly killed. He is bad because he costs 300 points and can be instantly killed.

Swarmlord is 280 before guards, Hive Tyrant is 260 in his most common form, 285 with preferred enemy.
Both can be IDed by force weapons among other things. Enfeeble + STR10 gun would nuke them also.

rigeld2 wrote:

Swarmlord is 280 before guards, Hive Tyrant is 260 in his most common form, 285 with preferred enemy.
Both can be IDed by force weapons among other things. Enfeeble + STR10 gun would nuke them also.

They are both toughness 6 and cheaper than the kitted prince by a good amount. Both would easily kill the prince in CC. And I don't see too many people singing the praises of Tyranid monstrous creatures, even the ones that are more survivable than the prince.

Actually, the Prince would kill the Tyrant in CC almost every time. Better WS, better Init, access to an invul... Not even a contest. And the Prince is cheaper.

The Prince actually stands a chance against the Swarmlord because of the massive Injt.

And my point was that you're not overpaying for a worthless model - TMCs are actually doing relatively well in 6th. He only costs 300+ points if you throw every option you can on him. Using that as an argument is silly - a Tyrant can cost 430 points but I don't use that in a discussion about his effectiveness.

rigeld2 wrote:
Actually, the Prince would kill the Tyrant in CC almost every time. Better WS, better Init, access to an invul... Not even a contest. And the Prince is cheaper.

The Prince actually stands a chance against the Swarmlord because of the massive Injt.

And my point was that you're not overpaying for a worthless model - TMCs are actually doing relatively well in 6th. He only costs 300+ points if you throw every option you can on him. Using that as an argument is silly - a Tyrant can cost 430 points but I don't use that in a discussion about his effectiveness.

I seriously doubt the mace prince is going to beat a flyrant with lash whip, bone sword, and toxin sacs. How much does that cost exactly? Especially to make them equal psykers since everyone seems to want to deck out the prince... Oh and the Flyrant isn't getting squashed by the first rail gun shot, which was the entire point of this discussion....

Nobody actually runs a melee Flyrant anymore... It's 230-255 points of waiting to be shot at.

And he's just an Enfeeble away from being splatted by the Rail Gun.

rigeld2 wrote:
Nobody actually runs a melee Flyrant anymore... It's 230-255 points of waiting to be shot at.

And he's just an Enfeeble away from being splatted by the Rail Gun.

Ok, anhd the chaos DP is an enfeeble away from being splatted by krak missiles or a psyrifleman... So what is your point there exactly?

Kevlar wrote:

Ok, anhd the chaos DP is an enfeeble away from being splatted by krak missiles or a psyrifleman... So what is your point there exactly?

Not to mention that every big Tyranid beast has way better psyker defense than the DP.