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Proxy wrote:
So the flying Daemon Prince of Tzeentch is out of the box now and it seems that he's the new Chaos Space Marine flying tank.

With a power armour and the Mark of Tzeentch he can absorb and lot of firepower when he's in swooping mode and when I say a lot, I mean a lot... just to hit him with snapshot's is a challenge. With the Burning Brand he's got a torrent template S4, AP3... an infantry killer... and when he's ready to land he's still a close combat brute.

Ok he's killable with a flyer and anti-aircraft weaponry, but still... he's got that invulnerable save and a lot of wounds... he start the game on the table (unlike a flyer) and can reach up to 36" from it's starting position with the Burning Brand.

That guy is a beast to take down while he's in flight...
I wasn't a fan of the new Daemon Prince but that guy is coming back from the grave and earned a place back in my list...

You are vastly over-estimating his ability to stay alive. 18 shots from anything grounds him on average, so you shoot your worst squad at him first, ground him, he takes a wound from the fall. Then you unload on him with your big guns at BS. Most armies pack quite a bit of AP2-3 weaponry which will make the Mark almost redundant, and he doesn't have that many wounds when you consider how many wounds all the Nids gribblies have.

He's good, but he's not 250pts+ good.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
18 shots from anything grounds him on average, so you shoot your worst squad at him first, ground him, he takes a wound from the fall.

I think it would be more accurate to say that 3 sets of shots from three different units will ground a FMC on average. You get one Grounding roll per unit that hits, not per hit.

18 shots from a single unit would cause exactly one grounding roll as long as at least one of them hit. It would still cause only one roll if all 18 shots hit.

 undertow wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
18 shots from anything grounds him on average, so you shoot your worst squad at him first, ground him, he takes a wound from the fall.

I think it would be more accurate to say that 3 sets of shots from three different units will ground a FMC on average. You get one Grounding roll per unit that hits, not per hit.

18 shots from a single unit would cause exactly one grounding roll as long as at least one of them hit. It would still cause only one roll if all 18 shots hit.

This exactly, in addition you know those days where you just make umpteen 3+'s that's been me with FMC Daemons >.<

Tried an overexpensive DP:
- MoS (for fleet)
- wings
- power amour
- lvl 3
- spell familiar
- black mace.

rolled biomancy: iron arm+endurance (yay).

Opponent: foot Blood angels, 2 devastators, a lot of plasma/melta.

went swooping turn 1 with the majority of the army approaching, the opponent ignored it.
Turn 2, charged a squad, killed it (8 out of 10 assault marines, +3 from a nearby squad). the remaning 2 escaped (rolled 1 to chase, opponent rolled 6 ....this ended up killing the DP since he was no longer locked in combat).

It took the whole opponent's army to gun him down on the following turn, despite me only magaging to roll a single save/fnp for all the wounds caused.

My list was kinda lousy, and my DS units did not came on the second turn to support the DP, but I think that with appropriate support he could have survived and continue the onslaught.

Overall, I might try it again, but in a cheaper non-psyker version.
The black mace is worth it on a flying DP, but it clearly needs support, either helldrakes or deep striking units to divert fire.

Probably not the msot effective HQ, but fun to use, and fun to see the opponent's face when the black mace is in use.

You should try him with the MoT (re-roll every 1's on failed save) and give him the Burning Brand of Skalathrax.

Not that much overpriced at 250 pts...

He doesn't need Black Mace or any powers and making him a level 3 Psykers is a waste of points... otherwise, you said you were unlucky and played him unsupported and he wiped out a devastator squad (~250 pts) and he drew the fire of your opponent army for a full turn... not bad.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
18 shots from anything grounds him on average, so you shoot your worst squad at him first, ground him, he takes a wound from the fall.

I think it would be more accurate to say that 3 sets of shots from three different units will ground a FMC on average. You get one Grounding roll per unit that hits, not per hit.

18 shots from a single unit would cause exactly one grounding roll as long as at least one of them hit. It would still cause only one roll if all 18 shots hit.

This exactly, in addition you know those days where you just make umpteen 3+'s that's been me with FMC Daemons >.<

Yeah, there are times when an entire army's shooting fails to ground Fateweaver, then the next game he fails the first grounding test, takes his first wound from a Tesla arc and I roll a 12 for his Ld check.

Arleucs wrote:
Tried an overexpensive DP:
- MoS (for fleet)
- wings
- power amour
- lvl 3
- spell familiar
- black mace.

rolled biomancy: iron arm+endurance (yay).

Turn 2, charged a squad, killed it (8 out of 10 assault marines, +3 from a nearby squad). the remaning 2 escaped (rolled 1 to chase, opponent rolled 6 ....this ended up killing the DP since he was no longer locked in combat).

Above is probably the best loadout if you can afford it, Difficult to fit this into anything less than1850 and then still becomes a squeeze
75 points for the slim chance of Iron Arm/Endurance or Warp Speed is hard to swallow, considering you only get 2 rolls it doesn't seem worth it.
Even with these powers your DP died way before he earnt his points back. The rest of your army probably sucked because you didnt have any points left lol.

A lesser version to consider is:
- MoN (for shrouding, Keep him in cover in turn 1 and in swoop mode and aim for a 3+ cover save including the shrouding)
- wings
- black mace. (Its AP2 and causes crazy tougness tests that cause ID? errrm yes please always).

Concerning your experience above, you have to think about keeping him in the fight, You do not want your DP coming out of combat in your turn.
To aid you with this it might be a better idea to issue a challenge, once you win it you'll be in combat with the remaining squad in his turn, if you can clear up then you have your turn to get him back into combat again or in swoop mode and/or in cover.

This guy will either die to a couple of bolters or sweep through half an army.

I think that is important. He can sweep through an entire army. The opponent should know that. If not, remind them!

I think this new DP reminds me a lot of when I play against GK players using Dreadknights. When I play against bad players using a Dreadknight, I gladly shred it with plasma shots and it dies. My opponent complains about how unlucky it was, and I win the game.
When I play against a good player using a Dreadknight (like my good friend), I have considerably more trouble. He doesn't shunt/shoot/die like the bad players. He jumps behind cover turn one, maybe getting a shot at something wtih the torrent gun. I adjust, move a bit, try to pepper some shots at him, but alas, he's behind a building and I only see him with like 2 units! Then on his turn, he shunts behind my lines, torrent fires and wipes a squad in cover... and I get reminded that I need to handle this guy or he will crush my army.
Using him in Swoop isn't the only way to use this guy. You want to be in CC. Some folks out there are saying this guy can't stand up to dedicated assault units... why not? And if you are sure he can't, then don't. You are more mobile than just about every unit in the game. You can Swoop or Glide. You're not slowed by difficult terrain. You can fly/jump over impassable. If you don't want to fight TH/SS terminators, by god, you don't have to.
Think about this: as a Tzeentch Prince, in CC against just about everything, you are being hit on 5's due to you being WS9. Lets look at this:
You charge a squad of 5 TH/SS terminators. You hammer of wrath at i10. You then roll your 6 attacks, you hit on 3's and wound on 2's, they get a 3+ save. That is 1.38 dead TH/SS terminators. They have 8 attacks back. Hit on 5's, wound on 2's, you save 5+, rerolling 1's. That is 1.48 wounds before you reroll the saves of 1. Not exactly one sided. A Prince with mark of Tzeentch alone is 160 points, is that right? A squad of TH/SS guys is 200 points, right?
Obviously, you can get expensive with this dummy. You can spend 300 points on him. But at 160 points, he no more maneuverable than a TH/SS squad and fights them roughly the same. Maybe a little more (or a lot more) fragile when it comes to shooting, but he is a wrecking ball against most units.

Use your Prince smart and he can be that guy. Keep him behind cover, try to block line of sight completely to him if you can, jump him up, use your burning brand, and then get him in a position where the opponent has to deal with him... or be dealt with.

I actually had a game last week where I turn 1, 1 railgun ID'd a fully kitted out DP. The guy got so mad he started talking about how worthless they are and over costed (Because somebody apparently forced him to buy 3 Psyker levels and all the bells and whistles) He also deployed it when he was going second, not behind cover, and confused DoN with MoN and didn't realize he could be insta-killed.

Even started saying how overpowered and BS Tau are and how they need to be nerfed. Good day. Good day.

But honestly I can't see why people get so upset about these. It's a beast and seems to be fairly well priced for what it does. Yeah a railgun can kill it, if you aren't hiding behind cover. But did you know that most things fall to railguns? Did you know that Tau like saving Railguns for important things. If a DP is tying up railguns, then that means all the mech gets a free pass that turn.

Wish I had a new codex that I could cry about.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
But did you know that most things fall to railguns? Did you know that Tau like saving Railguns for important things. If a DP is tying up railguns, then that means all the mech gets a free pass that turn.

Wish I had a new codex that I could cry about.

What other MC get one shotted by a railgun? I can't think of any. Not Wraithlords nor Avatars, not Talos, not Dreadknights, not Tyranids, nothing in codex Daemons, no C'tan nor tomb spiders. And most of these are far, far cheaper than the CSM prince. Its a bum unit.

I'm sorry but the DP isn't a Wraithlord, an Avatar, Talos, Dreadknight, or Tyranid. It's a DP. Stop complaining about what it isn't and enjoy what it is.

It can get a 3+ coversave, move fast, and deliver some hurt. I think it's good for it's price, provided you aren't trying to give it every bit of equipment under the sun. It's already hard to hit in an enviornment with little skyfire.

Kevlar wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
But did you know that most things fall to railguns? Did you know that Tau like saving Railguns for important things. If a DP is tying up railguns, then that means all the mech gets a free pass that turn.

Wish I had a new codex that I could cry about.

What other MC get one shotted by a railgun? I can't think of any. Not Wraithlords nor Avatars, not Talos, not Dreadknights, not Tyranids, nothing in codex Daemons, no C'tan nor tomb spiders. And most of these are far, far cheaper than the CSM prince. Its a bum unit.

Tyranid Harpies can.
Edit - yes they're cheaper, but not anywhere near as capable in CC.

Kevlar wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
But did you know that most things fall to railguns? Did you know that Tau like saving Railguns for important things. If a DP is tying up railguns, then that means all the mech gets a free pass that turn.

Wish I had a new codex that I could cry about.

What other MC get one shotted by a railgun? I can't think of any. Not Wraithlords nor Avatars, not Talos, not Dreadknights, not Tyranids, nothing in codex Daemons, no C'tan nor tomb spiders. And most of these are far, far cheaper than the CSM prince. Its a bum unit.

lol Don't even compare it to a Wraithlord, the red-headed stepchild of MC's T8, 3 wounds 3+ no invul >.< buggers drop like flies

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


lol Don't even compare it to a Wraithlord, the red-headed stepchild of MC's T8, 3 wounds 3+ no invul >.< buggers drop like flies

They were pretty good back when nothing under str 5 could hurt them. Even now stick one in cover and its a decent shooting platform. Fairly cheap, more survivable than a dread to melta/lascannons, and sitting in cover it will ID a prince before it ever gets to strike.

300 point HQ model with no grenades and T5. Hahahaha.

Finish the statement...
That's a flying MC, with a boat load of I8 hits, power armor, loads of goodies, and can wreck anything from infantry to vehicles.

Try making a legitimate point next time.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Finish the statement...
That's a flying MC, with a boat load of I8 hits, power armor, loads of goodies, and can wreck anything from infantry to vehicles.

Try making a legitimate point next time.

What the hell does init 8 matter when you have no grenades and your opponent sits in cover? Especially when you have T5 and he has S10 close combat attacks?

You can complain about anything. DPs don't have an Assualt 3 Twinlinked lascannon so they suck! They don't come in squadrons and have A14, they blow!

No grenades? Charge a vehicle or something!

 Savageconvoy wrote:
You can complain about anything. DPs don't have an Assualt 3 Twinlinked lascannon so they suck! They don't come in squadrons and have A14, they blow!

No grenades? Charge a vehicle or something!

Not having grenades on an unit that pretty much has to assault to do anything is kind of a big deal. Especially when one of his selling points is his "great initiative".

I think the wings should compensate for the lack of grenades and getting around cover.

Kevlar wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
You can complain about anything. DPs don't have an Assualt 3 Twinlinked lascannon so they suck! They don't come in squadrons and have A14, they blow!

No grenades? Charge a vehicle or something!

Not having grenades on an unit that pretty much has to assault to do anything is kind of a big deal. Especially when one of his selling points is his "great initiative".

Hive Tyrants seem to do well without grenades.

I know your defense is going to be "But they're T6!" But really - T5 isn't that bad. You have an invul (I said access to before, but forgot the Daemon rule gives you one) and significantly better CC. Look at any decent Tyranid list - they all have Flyrants. Partially because that's our only anti-air, but also because they're extremely effective.

rigeld2 wrote:

Hive Tyrants seem to do well without grenades.

I know your defense is going to be "But they're T6!" But really - T5 isn't that bad. You have an invul (I said access to before, but forgot the Daemon rule gives you one) and significantly better CC. Look at any decent Tyranid list - they all have Flyrants. Partially because that's our only anti-air, but also because they're extremely effective.

I'm pretty sure the two most glaring and complained about problems with the Tyranid codex is 1. Lack of grenades, and 2. No eternal warrior on their big MC.

So the CSM daemon prince embodies these traits wonderfully, with the added bonus of being instantly killed by any S10 weapons on top of regular force weapons/ID attacks. I honestly don't think I need a defense, the daemon prince being a horrible choice is readily apparent.

There is no point arguing this anymore. You are so obsessed that the DP has a drawback that you can't see the strengths. If your only complaint is that a max strength shot that gets past his flying, armor, and invul save would kill it, then maybe it isn't that bad.

Kevlar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Hive Tyrants seem to do well without grenades.

I know your defense is going to be "But they're T6!" But really - T5 isn't that bad. You have an invul (I said access to before, but forgot the Daemon rule gives you one) and significantly better CC. Look at any decent Tyranid list - they all have Flyrants. Partially because that's our only anti-air, but also because they're extremely effective.

I'm pretty sure the two most glaring and complained about problems with the Tyranid codex is 1. Lack of grenades, and 2. No eternal warrior on their big MC.

So the CSM daemon prince embodies these traits wonderfully, with the added bonus of being instantly killed by any S10 weapons on top of regular force weapons/ID attacks. I honestly don't think I need a defense, the daemon prince being a horrible choice is readily apparent.

Good players have gotten over the lack of grenades and no EW. I'd love to have flesh hooks on a troop unit, but its not that big a deal.
You can live in a world where Demon Princes are useless. If you want, you can send all of yours to me since obviously you'll never use them.

rigeld2 wrote:

You can live in a world where Demon Princes are useless. If you want, you can send all of yours to me since obviously you'll never use them.

I'll still pack them in my case in case I get a good roll on the boon chart.

I love how the DP haters keeping insisting on the DP being 300 points just to make their point. You can easily run one that is less then 200 points and is quite effective.

Force weapons aren't nearly as threatening as people are making them out to be. While the DP might be more vulnerable to S10 then other MCs, he decidedly less vulnerable to force weapons and other insta death CC attacks because most hit him on a 5+, and he gets an invulnerable save, the latter putting him in a select class of MCs alongside the C'Tan, Dreadknight, and his fellow Demons.

Because most force weapons hit on a 5+, wound on a 5+, and he gets a 5++ against the wound, you're going to need a lot of force weapons before you have a reasonable chance to bring him down.


A note on Rail Guns. DS. DS. DS. Seriously, DS+Swoop is an amazing deployment option. If you get a bad scatter you can use Swoops improved run rule to correct it. Also, coming in on turn 2+ gives you two turns to neutralize those broadsides. I'm not saying you should always DS, but if the opponent has any S10 ranged weapons at all...you should strongly consider it.

Anyway, I think it's a very solid unit, it's just nothing like it was in the previous codex. Stop lamenting your loss of lash and learn how to use the new beasty, you'll be a better Chaos general if you do. Stop spending 300 points on it and starting it on the field turn one for everything to shoot at it.

I was thinking of running a nurgle prince with wings that i sit behind the aegis until it is counter assault time. 2 plus cover is no joke. Then have him counter attack once my drakes show up.

 undertow wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
18 shots from anything grounds him on average, so you shoot your worst squad at him first, ground him, he takes a wound from the fall.

I think it would be more accurate to say that 3 sets of shots from three different units will ground a FMC on average. You get one Grounding roll per unit that hits, not per hit.

18 shots from a single unit would cause exactly one grounding roll as long as at least one of them hit. It would still cause only one roll if all 18 shots hit.

My mistake, still, people are vastly overestimating it.

I'm seeing a mix of, 'well this guy is cheap and okay' in which case the counters still offset the cost, or 'this guy can kill anything with all these goodies' and it turns out to be a 300+pts HQ whose feats can be achieved by a much cheaper Lord.

See here's the main problem regarding the cost; the Prince's role in conflicted because of how much options are for him. At 180pts base (you have to take a patron and are a fool not to take armour) 40pts for wings becomes very expensive unless you actually use them enough. At this point you really want to keep your Prince flying and Burning Brand stuff. The problem here is he is now at 250pts, a lot of which is paid for the stat boosts he got that he will now rarely use (and the Heldrake is better at this). On the other hand, you can tool him for combat, and then you have the Wings dilemma; you'll hardly use them so could spend the 40pts elsewhere, or else he ends up being too slow to catch his target. So what you end up with is a beatstick Prince flying around wasting a turn or two flying while hunting his target, all the while costing near to 300pts. A single model should not cost that much unless they are just that scary. A Daemon Prince isn't, as it is super easy to counter. I'd much rather seeing a big expensive DP across the table from me than a Lord with 35 ablative wounds (which is cheaper BTW).

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I love how the DP haters keeping insisting on the DP being 300 points just to make their point. You can easily run one that is less then 200 points and is quite effective.

No, no you can't. With his Patron and Armour alone he is 180pts as I've stated above, at which point you have a mediocre slow monstrous creature. You give him Wings to speed him up or a weapon to bef him up, and you've broken the 200pts barrier. 'DP haters' keep insisting he is near 300pts because the examples given have been, and they've actually done the calculations. Besides, making good choices in this game isn't about being effective, it's about being cost effective.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I think the wings should compensate for the lack of grenades and getting around cover.

That's great, but while my unit doesn't leave the cover, how is skipping around it in circles like a big ugly fairy going to help you?

Exactly.

The one thing he might be good at, flying around with the burning brand, can be done much more cheaply with a sorcerer in a rhino. Or much more cheaply and efficiently with heldrakes and a bale flamer.

Man I wish I had a 230 point unit that required snap shots to hit, had an invul, and could torrent an AP3 weapon. And be a CC slaughterhouse at the same time.

Target unit hiding in cover? Torrent them. Out of cover? Blenderize.

Can you make him 265 and give him the Axe as well as the Brand?

Why, when you can do the same thing with a 100 point model, or much more with a 175 point model?