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TedNugent wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Is it wrong of me to want Ward to write it? I think, despite the fairly over the top fluff and wobbly naming conventions, that his codices are too bad. Or perhaps Kelly can weave his magic, as he did on the last ork codex (which should be the benchmark for codex writing tbh).

Good lord...

First, Kelly put far too many useless units into the Ork 4th 'dex. Gitz, Zap Gunz, Weirdboyz, Grotsnik, Looted Wagons, Deff Dreads, Stormboyz....

No. Those units are not useless, there were simply better choices available in the same slots. I've used deff dreads in troop choices in 5th all the edition and recently in 6th, enjoyed a very good number of games using looted wagons with boomguns as part of an ork gunline.

Kelly's codex remained extremely competitive throughout 5th ed and there were several builds; Battlewagon rush, Kan wall, Kult of Speed and green tide, that all had potency and viability at tournament right until 6th arrived and threw assault out with the bath water.

Come off it MGS. You’re going to claim that there aren’t units on that list that aren’t completely useless? Flash Gitz, for example?

To quite Mauleed from many years ago:

“Not all units are created equal. Some are just bad.”

Some of the units in that list are just bad. Not ‘other things are better choices’. Just flat-out bad.

Kelly is known for creating some very useless units in a list at times. Look at half of space wolves for example, and how poorly Eldar both aged into 5th. Dark Eldar had Grotesques and succubi, as well as the court of the archon, mandrakes, and one or two more.

Kelly is horrible with internal points costs. In the new chaos codex for example a mark of slaanesh is the same on a lord as a mark of nurgle, space wolves in general, venoms in DE and all that.

Eldar-wise he did give us a really effective Ulthwe build for which I was eternally grateful!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Kelly is known for creating some very useless units in a list at times. Look at half of space wolves for example, and how poorly Eldar both aged into 5th. Dark Eldar had Grotesques and succubi, as well as the court of the archon, mandrakes, and one or two more.

Kelly is horrible with internal points costs. In the new chaos codex for example a mark of slaanesh is the same on a lord as a mark of nurgle, space wolves in general, venoms in DE and all that.

So what? Kelly's Ork codex still was competitive and fun. I'll happily take another one of those.

TedNugent wrote:


Good lord...

First, Kelly put far too many useless units into the Ork 4th 'dex. Gitz, Zap Gunz, Weirdboyz, Grotsnik, Looted Wagons, Deff Dreads, Stormboyz....

There's a lot of ideas in the Ork Codex, but only half of the Codex or so is viable. I would like to see more IC choices in particular - and something has to be done about our dependency on the Kustom Force Field. In a Codex that dependent on one piece of wargear - there's almost no alternatives when everything else is just written in to be goofy or fluffy or random tabletop fun.

I flat don't agree that the Ork Codex is " dependent on one piece of wargear". If you think that, you may be using orks in a too 1 dimensional way. I hardly ever use one, I find it a points sink and a waste of the HQ slot that could be filled by a warboss.

I have to agree with many here, there are just some flat out bad units in the ork codex.

The ork deff dread (why doesn't it have waaaagh special rule that might have at least meant it would have been good for a laugh). In all the games I played my deff dread in over 5th I don't think it has managed more than 3 kills and has died in all but one game that it has been played, in that game I tabled the opponent and the dread never got a look in and so came up against no resistance. I realise this is a bit of a feat in itself and rather unlucky but it is still funny to think.

Burna boys were over priced in 5th and now assault has been nurffed nigh on useless.

Weirdboys were always there for the fun so don't mind them being not that competitive but something might be useful to bring them up a notch.

Normal slugga boyz could do with a buff, with the new overwatch rules there is no reason to take them over shoota boyz unless you absolutely know you are going to get the charge (not likely to ever happen unless your playing a speed freeks list).

The biggest offender is Flash Gitz, they are both ineffective and expensive, everything else in the codex beats these even the Grot squad holding objectives as they do.

I think in this edition big guns have got somewhat better now they have a save and wounds so wouldn't mind so much about zzap guns.

Also I wouldn't touch stormboys, I get plenty enough success and fun out of the use of stormboys in their current form and I wouldn't want them changed. Also they now get free high init attack on the charge, bonus.

Weirdboys were always their for the fun so don't mind them being not that competitive but something might be useful to bring them up a notch.

Don't understand why people always think this, back when they were around (Taken out of the third dex, so second edition) They were pretty powerful, but random (And had the possibility of firing two attacks at once if you choose it right ). The problem is now they are random but ineffective, which is the major issue. Before all their powers were pure attack powers, like Deathwave, Psychic Cannon, and Brainburster beam, which made it easier for them to be specialized as an attack weapon.

With all the various other powers now being randomly rolled on a D6, it's a bit to much to figure out what they are going to do, and so are regulated to being a "Fun" choice.

The ork codex as it is now though is probably the Best codex written out of 40k though, able to age well, and still have multiple types of lists even through to sixth edition, even in the age where they were trying to slim everything down to bland choices Kelly chose to bring back the Shokk Attack Gun, and Weird Boyz, things that are quite orky. Sure there's issues, but it's probably the best out of the written codex.

Flashgits are useful, but the problem they have is A) the popular lists are Heavy support orrientated. and B) People tend to want to use flashgits like everything else in the codex: by taking them at full strength and shoving everything on them.

From experience, they work best as a 6 man unit with 2 upgrades (depending on what you have) that's part distraction, part find X and kill it. Their range means you begin shooting ~turn 2 and you have to shoot then assault. The shooting alone doesn't really work for them.

Weirdboys: I require upgrades. Zebio does get the powers choice right... ish, except when you synergise it with dakkajets you start to get something going.

Zzapp guns: Question. If you have lootas (and you do) and you don't have AV14 on the field.... why are these guys being shot at tanks (unless there are 11 tanks on the field, then you are forgiven). I find these guys are anti high armors save. I think the auto shaken is a bit of a distraction myself. That said if they were more reliably high Strength then I might use them on tanks more.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


The ork codex as it is now though is probably the Best codex written out of 40k though, able to age well, and still have multiple types of lists even through to sixth edition, even in the age where they were trying to slim everything down to bland choices Kelly chose to bring back the Shokk Attack Gun, and Weird Boyz, things that are quite orky. Sure there's issues, but it's probably the best out of the written codex.

I couldn't agree more, the ork codex is great, really great. I'm happy to have it for a lot longer. It is funny well written and non of these issue can't be overcome. Just some of the units could well spend most of 6th on the back burner.

There are some units that have jumped out of obscurity, and possibly some into obscurity with 6th. The biggest jumpers IMO are Meganobz they went from worst elite in the codex to now topping normal Nobz point for point with the 2+ and no longer moving at 2D6" a turn! Also big gunz and bikes are better each getting some core rule buffs.

Dribble Joy wrote:Upping their base firepower or dropping them to a boy's stat line and focussing them more on shooting is the way to getting more people to use them.

I like the idea that they're Nobs who can afford big guns. Makes them more different from other shooty squads. But they are too expensive for what they do.

Kanluwen wrote:An Ork crashing a motorbike through a Titan?

I loved that bit.

I tell you what would be nice - Ork shooting units that can actually shoot. I'm tired of 40K racial traits being distilled until they become the only real defining feature of every member of that race. Orks are traditionally bad shots, but it stands to reason that some of them would like shooting things enough that they'd start to get good at it, and then that those Orks would congregate together.

I'm not saying we need BS4 Ork snipers with re-rollable shooting attacks, but the odd shooty Ork unit at BS3 wouldn't go astray (Tankbustas especially, Kommandos as well). Not every Ork need be BS2.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I tell you what would be nice - Ork shooting units that can actually shoot. I'm tired of 40K racial traits being distilled until they become the only real defining feature of every member of that race. Orks are traditionally bad shots, but it stands to reason that some of them would like shooting things enough that they'd start to get good at it, and then that those Orks would congregate together.

I'm not saying we need BS4 Ork snipers with re-rollable shooting attacks, but the odd shooty Ork unit at BS3 wouldn't go astray (Tankbustas especially, Kommandos as well). Not every Ork need be BS2.

Grots fulfill that niche. There just needs to be more grot units that can actually pull their weight other than as meatshields/minesweepers/objective holders. If Orks wanted to be better shots, they'd just get more dakka.

 ceorron wrote:
I have to agree with many here, there are just some flat out bad units in the ork codex.

The ork deff dread (why doesn't it have waaaagh special rule that might have at least meant it would have been good for a laugh). In all the games I played my deff dread in over 5th I don't think it has managed more than 3 kills and has died in all but one game that it has been played, in that game I tabled the opponent and the dread never got a look in and so came up against no resistance. I realise this is a bit of a feat in itself and rather unlucky but it is still funny to think.

Burna boys were over priced in 5th and now assault has been nurffed nigh on useless.

Weirdboys were always there for the fun so don't mind them being not that competitive but something might be useful to bring them up a notch.

Normal slugga boyz could do with a buff, with the new overwatch rules there is no reason to take them over shoota boyz unless you absolutely know you are going to get the charge (not likely to ever happen unless your playing a speed freeks list).

The biggest offender is Flash Gitz, they are both ineffective and expensive, everything else in the codex beats these even the Grot squad holding objectives as they do.

I think in this edition big guns have got somewhat better now they have a save and wounds so wouldn't mind so much about zzap guns.

Also I wouldn't touch stormboys, I get plenty enough success and fun out of the use of stormboys in their current form and I wouldn't want them changed. Also they now get free high init attack on the charge, bonus.

Firstly, I used dreads a few times in 5th, and usually they worked rather well for me, I think it just comes down to everyone loved their Kans so Dreads lost outright. Now in 6th, yea, thanks to grenades dreads are shaky at best, seems like EVERYONE can kill them.

And am I reading this right, are you saying that Burnas suck now? And were over costed in 5th? Erm......yea...tell that to the ENTIRE UNITS that were wiped by a drive by burning. And yes, assaulting did take a hit so far in 6th for Orks, but if your assaulting with burnas, something you shouldnt really have done in 5th either, your doing it wrong. Burnas are STILL meant to just drop a template, multiply it by 10+ and laugh as you yet again, wipe an entire unit from the board.



I think we will get a great codex if either Kelly or Ward writes it. Kelly did an excellent job on it currently, obviously its 2 editions old, and we can STILL kick your ass with it. And Ward has wrote some incredibly balanced and good codices. Granted he has also wrote some steamers like the GK dex IMHO, that just veered way off, but thats another story. I think the current SM dex is one of the most balanced and well written codices in the entire game. Both writers have the talent to do the Orks justice.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I tell you what would be nice - Ork shooting units that can actually shoot. I'm tired of 40K racial traits being distilled until they become the only real defining feature of every member of that race. Orks are traditionally bad shots, but it stands to reason that some of them would like shooting things enough that they'd start to get good at it, and then that those Orks would congregate together.

I'm not saying we need BS4 Ork snipers with re-rollable shooting attacks, but the odd shooty Ork unit at BS3 wouldn't go astray (Tankbustas especially, Kommandos as well). Not every Ork need be BS2.

There actually used to be a BS4 ork, the Bad Moons Warboss Nazdreg Ug Urdgrub. Bring him back and give flash gits BS3 and it'd work okay.

I'd prefer Tankbusters to get better shooting when it comes to hitting vehicles however, with kommando's getting better shooting when getting closer to the enemy. They aren't really dedicated to shooting, just at what they are good at.

I don't see any reason that you cannot have Orks with BS3. Gretchin tend to fulfil the more comic relief parts of the army list, which is why I'd more expect to see them continue to be chaff units, although I'll grant that I love the little blighters and would particularly like to see more 'Grot assistant' style stuff so that you had more of them wandering around after the warbosses. Orks, meanwhile, are the mainstay of the list (hence the name) and so should really dominate the core choices. Remember that Orks used to be BS3 WS3, and while I don't suggest that this be army wide or anything, having squads of boys who revert to that statline* would be neither impossible in fluff nor broken on the tabletop.

* Feral Orks are, IIRC, meant to be this way - somehow feral = more technologically inclined in 40k...

Remember that Orks used to be BS3 WS3, and while I don't suggest that this be army wide or anything, having squads of boys who revert to that statline* would be neither impossible in fluff nor broken on the tabletop.

Ork boys did use to be this, Warbosses could actually get up to WS/BS6 back in 2nd.

Course they also had "GoffikRok Bands" and "Ork Robots" So take what you will.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Come off it MGS. You’re going to claim that there aren’t units on that list that aren’t completely useless? Flash Gitz, for example?

To quite Mauleed from many years ago:

“Not all units are created equal. Some are just bad.”

Some of the units in that list are just bad. Not ‘other things are better choices’. Just flat-out bad.

Nope, Flash Gits aren't a bad choice, they just compete with better choices - in HS, with wagons, kans, now big guns etc. In low points cost games, they were pretty good, having a foot in both camps. In most games, above 1k, it's far better to take single purpose units but in low end, I believe that they fulfill a nice dual action capability. They also allow you to dress your orks up as pirates and that's nothing but win in my mind.

Taking a deff dread in a troops slot was great, as long as it didn't compete for a HS slot. Had mine sit in locked combat with a daemon prince for 4 rounds of combat, taking the bugger out of the game effectively. They should cut the cost of them by about 30% though.

Fast Attack in the Ork codex was up for grabs honestly, until the arrival of the flyers, I used stormboyz a couple of times on tau and imperial guard and they did precisely what I wanted them to do, show up near the opposite line (zagstruk) and start mangling gunlines. If they removed the 'wacky' casualty rules, slightly lowered the cost and increased the mob maximum size to 30, then I'd probably take them every time.



If you want to talk about the difference between good and not so good, for me, it's to be found in the elites, where lootas became the ultimate no brainer, followed by burnas (in an opentop vehicle) and nobs (which should be made troops permanently) - Something should be done about tankbustas and kommandoz. and also in the HQ, where the Weirdboyz need improving powerwise (bring back possessed warp'eadz!!) and the special characters are all a bit meh.

I think that marks it as a codex of it's time, stuck between the oldest codices with few named characters and recent ones full of supercharacters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giving walkers/vehicles their own KFFs might be an idea, as a vehicle upgrade instead of the big mek. I'd like to start fielding warbosses again but won't whilst meks provide utility via KFFs and firepower with SAGs.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
If you want to talk about the difference between good and not so good, for me, it's to be found in the elites, where lootas became the ultimate no brainer, followed by burnas (in an opentop vehicle)...

I'll have to give that one a try.

Youve never tried burnas in a BW?! Where have you been Anung? Its the new black. Its the bees knees, the cats pajamas and so on

Battlewagons, bringing 15 powerfists with AV14 to a monolith near you!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

TedNugent wrote:
First, Kelly put far too many useless units into the Ork 4th 'dex. Gitz, Zap Gunz, Weirdboyz, Grotsnik, Looted Wagons, Deff Dreads, Stormboyz....

Point of order: The units I’ve bolded above were already part of the Ork Codex. You can’t blame Kelly for ‘adding’ them when they were already there to begin with.

Weirdboyz and Looted Wagons weren't new either I thought? I mean, I have the old "Foot of Mork (or possibly Gork)" template from Dark Millenium, so surely they weren't really 'added' so much as 'put back in'?

And I definitely remember looted vehicles in the prior codex? Perhaps not with the same rules...



And as a second point I regularly field looted wagon with 'ard case, a boomgun and 2 rokkits. Cheap enough, fairly deadly, somehow a great fire magnet. Of course, I'm not a tournament player or anything and regularly get my butt kicked, so YMMV.

I want a gosh darn Waaaaaaaagh! rule that actually functions in 6th edition. How they can let an edition change nerf a popular armys only army wide special rule is beyond me. Waaaagh! oh what thats nice I get twce as many shots from my flier, but what about the boyz? Oh they can reroll their run roll and not assault... great!

 streamdragon wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

TedNugent wrote:
First, Kelly put far too many useless units into the Ork 4th 'dex. Gitz, Zap Gunz, Weirdboyz, Grotsnik, Looted Wagons, Deff Dreads, Stormboyz....

Point of order: The units I’ve bolded above were already part of the Ork Codex. You can’t blame Kelly for ‘adding’ them when they were already there to begin with.

Weirdboyz and Looted Wagons weren't new either I thought? I mean, I have the old "Foot of Mork (or possibly Gork)" template from Dark Millenium, so surely they weren't really 'added' so much as 'put back in'?

And I definitely remember looted vehicles in the prior codex? Perhaps not with the same rules...



And as a second point I regularly field looted wagon with 'ard case, a boomgun and 2 rokkits. Cheap enough, fairly deadly, somehow a great fire magnet. Of course, I'm not a tournament player or anything and regularly get my butt kicked, so YMMV.

Weirdboys are from 2nd (Along with shokk) Looted wagons have Always been in, but this is their new incarnation without being able to customize anything like a trukk or any imperial based vehicle. Now it's specific..and lame.

 Grimgob wrote:
I want a gosh darn Waaaaaaaagh! rule that actually functions in 6th edition. How they can let an edition change nerf a popular armys only army wide special rule is beyond me. Waaaagh! oh what thats nice I get twce as many shots from my flier, but what about the boyz? Oh they can reroll their run roll and not assault... great!

Fleet also allows you to reroll one or both dice for your charge distance, so at least it still does something.

Better than nothing at least.

Considering the nature of the Waaaagh in the fluff, have one round where the Orks are really nasty. If we follow how the Ork flyers work on a Waaagh... all infantry gain fleet, +1 strength, and all their weapons are counted as twin linked?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Weirdboys are from 2nd (Along with shokk) Looted wagons have Always been in, but this is their new incarnation without being able to customize anything like a trukk or any imperial based vehicle. Now it's specific..and lame.

The Rouge Trader era books "'Ere we go", "Waaaagh! Da Orks" and "Freebootaz" put these units (along with Plusa Rokkits, Bubble Chuckas, Hop Splat field guns etc) in 1st edition

Koppo wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Weirdboys are from 2nd (Along with shokk) Looted wagons have Always been in, but this is their new incarnation without being able to customize anything like a trukk or any imperial based vehicle. Now it's specific..and lame.

The Rouge Trader era books "'Ere we go", "Waaaagh! Da Orks" and "Freebootaz" put these units (along with Plusa Rokkits, Bubble Chuckas, Hop Splat field guns etc) in 1st edition

The furthest books back I have are from 2nd, so I cannot really tell if anything was from there.

Considering the nature of the Waaaagh in the fluff, have one round where the Orks are really nasty. If we follow how the Ork flyers work on a Waaagh... all infantry gain fleet, +1 strength, and all their weapons are counted as twin linked?

Waaagh! Itself though has changed drastically between the versions however, 3rd had it doubling Initiative, fourth makes it boost run/assault speed, but I think it shouldn't be based around a "Call once" target, but rather something a large enough squad can naturally do (Maybe instead of being WAAAGH! it could be an 'Ere we go, 'Ere we go, 'Ere we go type), with a specific WAAAGH! being granted by a Warboss, due to the fact that a Boss is big, in charge, and pretty much the strongest most concentrated WAAAGH! there is for orks.

 ceorron wrote:

Burna boys were over priced in 5th and now assault has been nurffed nigh on useless.

I'm sorry, What?

You have seen the "Wall of Death" rule?
Plus the drive by flaming is as valid as ever.

Id like to see kommandos be useful again. Outflanking ghazzy wherever I want always made me smile in 5th when I see the look on my opponents face.