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Sigh. It's not that I actually want to punch you in the face, but you need to realize how much your overuse of terms like mate and buddy create a disingenuous and even condescending tone, particularly on the Internet. You can absolutely be polite and sincere without being an overly affable milquetoast.

I'm sure you're a good dude, but you need to understand where the difference between polite and obnoxious lies. Remember: we can only read the words and can't get any other social cues from your inflection or mannerisms.

@Romeo -- I actually like the guy and am fairly certain this is going to be a good product because, from my experience, his company only produces quality products. I don't have a problem with him "trying to get his" in the business world. But then again, when it comes to business I'm decidedly darwinistic.

@WWX -- at this point ill be doing a starter with one of my buddies and creating a battle board that we can also use for Malifaux. I'm leaning towards the outlaws because I think they're the most consistent, while he's leaning toward the Enlightened.

Im loving the look of this game, the wild west has always held an intrest to me. I personlaly like the look of the outlaws and the union,but think the law men will be cool if they do unlock.

@madmick I think you are doing a great job of promoting this game,it certainly keeps me informed.

@cincydooley, little hash about his use of buddy and mate, we are english we use them a lot, similar to your dude I guess

 Madmick wrote:
@Alfndrate,
Hi mate, Just wanted to point out that the link does land on a topic that I had started, it does however point to the post that that remark was taken. So I would ask you to check the 4th post down on that page if you would be so kind.

The quoted text wasn't what I was referring to, sorry for my unclear statement.

I refer to people as "MATE" (which is self explanatory) / marra (marra - friend: "Mick wez an aad marra o' mine" / Buddy (also self explanatory) / mucka (Military term for mate) / pal (self explanatory) / ar'kid (brother, but can be used as friend). However, due to geographical differences, I chose to use terms that more people would be able to understand.

I use the term "WE" because it really feels like a team on there, if you do not believe me, donate $1 and come for a chat? or maybe join the forum and get to know how friendly everyone is. I can hardly be held responsible because people have grown paranoid within DakkaDakka can I? I have tried, as you pointed out, very hard to not to be the statistic norm which is often perceived here. All I have been is my normal self and respected peoples views. From what I understand of this whole situation, you dislike Romeo for being rude to people on one of his podcasts, which I have not listened to yet. How does his performance differ from the experience that I have received from a select few on this thread? I came on here to enjoy myself (insert reasons why here, but trying to keep it short).

I get the mate thing, it's a cultural difference between the US and the UK, but it's the over use >_<. Look at my posts, they contain a friendly tone (for the most part), or any of the truly friendly posts in the thread. Never once do I or anyone with a friendlier post say buddy, mate, etc.... I don't have to donate to see the WWX forums, and honestly it looks like a bunch of people that are just sitting around congratulating themselves and hyping themselves up about how awesome this game is, and at the end of the day, if you're just a regular guy, you're not a part of the team. If you were a painter or something else and you're just pretending to be a regular guy in the crowd, then you're lying and you'd be better off if it was well known that you were the studio painter for the game, because then we (dakka users) wouldn't feel like we were being pandered to by a "regular guy" because you're coming off as a salesman thats pushing this product just a little too much.

I never said I had issues with how he acts on podcasts, my issues are purely with the customer service I received from an order I put in about a year ago, and I said I wouldn't go into them for various reasons. His battlfoam product is great, I have 3 bags, but the customer service I received has made my wary of buying anything more from him simply because I wasn't treated so well. This is just my own personal experience with him and things he does, but I fault no one that continues buy his product, because it is good.

I was asking you to check KS because I had a banging headache and have had since middle of December, so I wanted you to take ownership of the situation so I didn't have to stare at the screen for much longer, but again my efforts back fired at me.

You could have just said this, as someone that gets spends 8+ hours a day staring at a flickering computer screen, I understand headaches... Again, you would have been better served by being forthcoming with information.

I generally have not found anything bad about WWX if I am honest, as the olny thing I thought was meh, he is doing the 3D images again for the Enlightened HH. So my reasoning leads me to a forum that kicks me for saying hello or a man who is trying his damnedest to make things right. Which would you honestly choose?

Dakka isn't trying to kick you for saying hello, Dakka is a very large wargaming site with many users of very discerning tastes who have money. Outlaw Miniatures, Romeo, whoever else is involved with this project is trying to get Dakkanauts to part with their hard earned greenbacks, which isn't a bad thing, but to say that there isn't anything bad about the game is a comment I find a little disconcerting if you're just a regular guy as everyone finds something wrong with something they like. I like Vanilla Ice Cream, but I don't like the feeling in my stomach after I eat it, due to the dairy content, if I could make vanilla ice cream with less dairy, I would. Then they have frozen yogurt, which allows me to enjoy something I like (vanilla ice cream) and fix a perceived problem with it (the heavy dairy feeling afterwards. So you're saying that the only thing you don't like is the "3d images" for a faction's model? A single thing in a game that as you describe has over 150 characters? There's nothing about the rules, the aesthetics, nothing? I find that hard to believe... :-\

I don't believe we have been given the size of the actual bases at this stage as I am not sure of how they refer to it by name:

Small 1.25'
medium 1.75'
Large 2.5'
Extra Large ?'
Massive 4.5'

You may be interested in Sitting Bull and Geronimo then, as they are like a werewolf and a bear. May make you army look unique. I hear that they have about 150 different characters for the game so far spread across all factions, oh and while I remember, have you seen the grey spirit? sort of like an eagle man. Anyway I am sure you may not stop there when some more characters come out, hehe. Personally, I would like to see some animal bodyguard of sorts, perhaps werewolves or bears again?

People measure base sizes in inches? O.o So what 30mm, 40mm, 50mm, ?, and 120mm... those are standard base sizes. And I'm not interested in Sitting Bull and Geronimo, and actually as someone that spent several years of my early life studying Sitting Bull and the Sioux nation, I'm actually slightly offended by the use of real life names for a fictional game. I mean that's not going to get me to go on a crusade to try and prevent this game's creation (because I know how to pick my fights), but I think it's poor taste to use names of real people in a fantasy game. I mean at least Outlaw Miniatures could have changed the names and used the real life names as inspiration... That's a personal peeve, other people are free to ignore my view. Also why did they decide on the name "Wild Nation" for the Native American tribes/faction(s)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The_Minsk wrote:
Im loving the look of this game, the wild west has always held an intrest to me. I personlaly like the look of the outlaws and the union,but think the law men will be cool if they do unlock.

@madmick I think you are doing a great job of promoting this game,it certainly keeps me informed.

@cincydooley, little hash about his use of buddy and mate, we are english we use them a lot, similar to your dude I guess

Hey dude, we know... but it's his over use of the words buddy and mate, it's like if every other sentence from us Americans contained dude. Know what I mean dude?

It can get a little grating dude.

 Alfndrate wrote:

My point was, the person in the link above has the same icon as you, the same location as you, and links to a painting studio on facebook with the same location as you, and a quick google search brings up a wordpress site for Ironclad Miniature Painting Studio with a post called, "poorly sick mick" and an icon that matches yours. It's fine that you're asking people to spread the word about the game, because if it's something you like, it's entirely worth it to advertise it. Some of the "guff" that you're getting is because you're overly friendly which makes it sound like you're trying to force us to back the product (like a car salesman that is pushing a car you don't want) because you have some invested interest. You use the words "We" when referring to the project instead of Outlaw Miniatures or WWX, which shows a level of familiarity with the company and the project rather than just being a fan/backer. I'm a huge fan of Wyrd Miniatures and ran the Through the Breach Kickstarter thread here on Dakka, but for the most part 90% of the posts in that thread I referred to Wyrd as Wyrd instead of we or us because I didn't have any more information about the kickstarter or the game as anyone else.

I'll chip in and say I tend to move to using we in KS chat once I'm invested and enthusiastic as I'm spending time, effort and money to help the KSing company achive their goals,

so I don't find it odd if any other enthusiastic backer does the same

(but do agree with most of the rest of your post )

 cincydooley wrote:
Sigh. It's not that I actually want to punch you in the face, but you need to realize how much your overuse of terms like mate and buddy create a disingenuous and even condescending tone, particularly on the Internet.

Oh, it's not just online. There's nothing as creepy and offputting as someone calling you "friend", for example, in a similar fashion.

 Alfndrate wrote:
And I'm not interested in Sitting Bull and Geronimo, and actually as someone that spent several years of my early life studying Sitting Bull and the Sioux nation, I'm actually slightly offended by the use of real life names for a fictional game. I mean that's not going to get me to go on a crusade to try and prevent this game's creation (because I know how to pick my fights), but I think it's poor taste to use names of real people in a fantasy game. I mean at least Outlaw Miniatures could have changed the names and used the real life names as inspiration... That's a personal peeve, other people are free to ignore my view. Also why did they decide on the name "Wild Nation" for the Native American tribes/faction(s)?

It's an interesting point, actually. On one hand, alternative versions of historical people and established fictional characters are very, very common, but the appropriation of Native cultures for this kind of thing is especialyl problematic given the long and complex history of native portrayals in media to begin with. Turning Abraham Lincoln into some kind of axe-wielding warrior or giving Gustave Eiffel a robot-spider isn't quite the same thing, but they're steps along the same highway to perdition, as it were.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
And I'm not interested in Sitting Bull and Geronimo, and actually as someone that spent several years of my early life studying Sitting Bull and the Sioux nation, I'm actually slightly offended by the use of real life names for a fictional game. I mean that's not going to get me to go on a crusade to try and prevent this game's creation (because I know how to pick my fights), but I think it's poor taste to use names of real people in a fantasy game. I mean at least Outlaw Miniatures could have changed the names and used the real life names as inspiration... That's a personal peeve, other people are free to ignore my view. Also why did they decide on the name "Wild Nation" for the Native American tribes/faction(s)?

It's an interesting point, actually. On one hand, alternative versions of historical people and established fictional characters are very, very common, but the appropriation of Native cultures for this kind of thing is especialyl problematic given the long and complex history of native portrayals in media to begin with. Turning Abraham Lincoln into some kind of axe-wielding warrior or giving Gustave Eiffel a robot-spider isn't quite the same thing, but they're steps along the same highway to perdition, as it were.

I do realize how I'm cherry picking my argument by excluding Abe Lincoln and his axe-wielding mini, but at the same time there are historical parodies that already have Abe killing zombies and vampires, I think it's just the idea that these are "noble savages" and that it's okay to associate them with animals because native americans were close to animals and spirits and that ilk, they believed in such things. The problem that I'm seeing is, why don't we see werewolves with other factions? Why is lycanthropy limited to just the Wild Nation? *shrugs* like I said, it's most likely just me, its a personal thing, and it shouldn't stop other people from backing this game that like that aesthetic. I'd just like to know why...

Yeah, that was discussed when those sculpts were first previewed. While I can see the sensitive nature of it, I'm still most interested in the warrior nation more than the others... and that sweet elk.

 RiTides wrote:
Yeah, that was discussed when those sculpts were first previewed. While I can see the sensitive nature of it, I'm still most interested in the warrior nation more than the others... and that sweet elk.

I missed that discussion lol but I do agree that elk is awesome

 MajorTom11 wrote:

I was and am simply pointing out that although you are being polite and friendly, you may be overdoing it a bit and in fact turning people off from participating in this thread as very little conversation is taking place between other users, just a Q and A with you.

...

I will say it shorter to be clear: Your enthusiasm is admirable but your tone and relentless posting are offputting to many users wanting to discuss this KS and the game as it is being interpreted and tele-marketing style messaging. People want to discuss the KS in it's entirety, stuff they love, stuff they like, stuff they worry about and stuff they don't like. Right now I believe many are feeling they aren't able to express themselves organically.

 cincydooley wrote:
Sigh. It's not that I actually want to punch you in the face, but you need to realize how much your overuse of terms like mate and buddy create a disingenuous and even condescending tone, particularly on the Internet.

These about sum up my feeling about this thread. I don't want the helpful guy at the store harassing me by trying to upsell me or be chummy, especially if that guy isn't even hired by the store but just a customer. I want to get what I came for, and ask for help if I need it.

This game looks pretty cool. The options are frankly overwhelming fo a starter line, which is putting me off. It's like the Relic Knights KS, except this one isn't color coded. I start scrolling and realize that my eyes have started glazing over and I'm just moving the scroll wheel. I've done this close to a half-dozen times. The minis look good, but I don't even want to calculate what it would cost to get in with most things I'd want for 2 players, because I just start scrolling past hordes of little silhouettes.

That's why i learned after the relic knights to just go with the pledge and leave it at that. I figure once i read the rule and play a few i can decide what i need for my army. I think a lot of people over burden themselves with ooh shiny syndrome.

 Empchild wrote:
That's why i learned after the relic knights to just go with the pledge and leave it at that. I figure once i read the rule and play a few i can decide what i need for my army. I think a lot of people over burden themselves with ooh shiny syndrome.

Yeah, same here. Plus, you combine that with the "get it all" mentality and this type of KS can be tricky.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Spoiler:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
And I'm not interested in Sitting Bull and Geronimo, and actually as someone that spent several years of my early life studying Sitting Bull and the Sioux nation, I'm actually slightly offended by the use of real life names for a fictional game. I mean that's not going to get me to go on a crusade to try and prevent this game's creation (because I know how to pick my fights), but I think it's poor taste to use names of real people in a fantasy game. I mean at least Outlaw Miniatures could have changed the names and used the real life names as inspiration... That's a personal peeve, other people are free to ignore my view. Also why did they decide on the name "Wild Nation" for the Native American tribes/faction(s)?

It's an interesting point, actually. On one hand, alternative versions of historical people and established fictional characters are very, very common, but the appropriation of Native cultures for this kind of thing is especialyl problematic given the long and complex history of native portrayals in media to begin with. Turning Abraham Lincoln into some kind of axe-wielding warrior or giving Gustave Eiffel a robot-spider isn't quite the same thing, but they're steps along the same highway to perdition, as it were.

I do realize how I'm cherry picking my argument by excluding Abe Lincoln and his axe-wielding mini, but at the same time there are historical parodies that already have Abe killing zombies and vampires, I think it's just the idea that these are "noble savages" and that it's okay to associate them with animals because native americans were close to animals and spirits and that ilk, they believed in such things. The problem that I'm seeing is, why don't we see werewolves with other factions? Why is lycanthropy limited to just the Wild Nation? *shrugs* like I said, it's most likely just me, its a personal thing, and it shouldn't stop other people from backing this game that like that aesthetic. I'd just like to know why...

The most important difference, IMO, between something parodic like an axe-weilding Abe Lincoln and the Native American shape-changing lies in the fact that the extra details grafted onto Abe and the others are infusions of steampunk, or envisioning a statesman as a warrior. The Natives are literally being commingled with animals, rather then being elevated over other people, they are actually becoming sub-human.

Now, of course this isn't to say that the association of Native American spiritual traditions with such ideas is necessarily invidious: the Twilight series is a lot of things, but being harshly anti-Native is not generally at the top of the list, despite the connection between native American cultures with werewolves. The thing that differentiates this from that is the use of a real-life person.

For an analogy, it's one thing to have a Jewish character in a semi-realistic setting that is a vampire. It's another thing to have that character be Rothschild.

Hey all, I apologize in advance if this has been asked already (couldn't find it), but does anyone know if:
I pledge at Cruel level but don't want four factions, can I trade in two factions worth of stuff for add-on value? Thanks!

Well, some of that was interesting.

Anyway, first post, read stuff off and on here, just signed up though, have moved around a lot and haven't always had my 40k models around but have always loved them and wargaming in general.

The things I really like about this project mainly center around it being a different setting then any of he major players. I don't bother with the P3 games for instance as I feel they are just "another" game on the market. The Wild West is an extremely iconic setting, and it should be fun to play this.

I play Salamanders in 40k, so my board is desert style. As soon as I saw this game a week or so ago I got excited just shearly on the fact I could use my board for a THIRD game and it totally fits (also have warhammer fantasy, but unfortunately the models have just sat around, but desert is still a cool setting). The terrain alone sold me. And I don't feel like any of the models in my closest are wasted by "switching games". I really liked how Romeo put it in a podcast, which I think was referenced earlier.

To the guy a page ago asking about "would you use this train in 40k", oddly I'm buying it MORE as a spaceport fixture then for WWX, and at that price, I wouldn't miss it. Outlaw has it marked for $220 after the kickstarter, but I think business will set in an that thing will quickly jump to $300. It would have to.

Really looking forward to this game. Other kickstarter projects to check out right now are Warzone, Story Wars, and Loki (not trying to derail, but there really are games on kickstarter for everyone right now). I missed the Dreadball kickstarter and am still kicking myself, so Hopefully none of you miss out on the great deals on that sight for whatever it is you're interested in.

I hope to see as many of you as possible playing this game as oddly it has got me interested in playing it competitively and casually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kanebbcksc wrote:
Hey all, I apologize in advance if this has been asked already (couldn't find it), but does anyone know if:
I pledge at Cruel level but don't want four factions, can I trade in two factions worth of stuff for add-on value? Thanks!

Yes you can. The very last FAQ on the main page explains it perfectly. It's like models for like models.

FYI the Wild West setting has been alive and well in Malifaux for the past 4 years.

@alfdrate - the best thing to do is listen to the resent podcast. It explains the shapeshifting thing. I oddly was more taken back by legitimate heroes of American History turned into somewhat of villain type figures(Not looking forward to Robert E Lee viewed that way at all) but I'm really just gonna ignore the names and treat them like just "some general" sort of thing.

So I totally get it, but I'm not gonna let fluff get in the way of me playing what looks to be a solid wild west themed war/skirmish game


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:
FYI the Wild West setting has been alive and well in Malifaux for the past 4 years.

Wow, I really have been out of it. Have to check that one out too. Doubt I'll pull the pledge though factoring in the ridiculous discount

You also have to remember that history is written by the victors, the white man prevailed, so Native Americans are resigned to people without a culture, or society. They have one, it's just not ours. Remember, in that same vein, Robert E. Lee was a "villain" because he chose the "wrong side" during the civil war. Had he fought for the Union, it'd be a different story. A great general yes, but he was villified by serving in the confederate army as it is. I'll try to listen to the podcast if I can (I tend to enjoy the occasional Gamer's Lounge podcast), but at the same time if you had read my post, my gripe wasn't with the shape shifting, it was with the use of real names to represent fictional characters. How hard would it have been to have created Chief Raging Bear, or something along those lines?

And you can't just ignore the names of REAL PEOPLE *sigh* I guess this is the problem when you try to meld history and fantasy sticking more closely to the former rather than the latter.

As for Wild West games, why didn't you back Black Water Gulch? or play with some of the wild west minis from Reaper?


Edit: Before any mods slag me for going off topic, I think that the discussion of the historical names being used in this game are a fantastic and on topic discussion point in relation to the game if they were to keep it "historically' accurate. It could give ideas for future expansions, possible crews, etc...

 Alfndrate wrote:

rem

As for Wild West games, why didn't you back Black Water Gulch? or play with some of the wild west minis from Reaper?


Edit: Before any mods slag me for going off topic, I think that the discussion of the historical names being used in this game are a fantastic discussion point in relation to the game if they were to keep it "historically' accurate. It could give ideas for future expansions, possible crews, etc...

Mmm two separate genres really and if I'm painting models for them does that count .

I would agree that the reaper minis are a different genre from this, but Necros has made it no secret that he planned on pursuing the Weird West idea with future expansions.

Alfndrate- As you sense, I think it's getting a bit far afield at this point, although it's a perfectly valid point of view to have. However, this game is far from trying to be "historically accurate"- it's "Weird West" to an extreme, and they're doing equal opportunity transformations to historical characters (Lincoln being an example).

I think people expressing they wished they'd not used real historical names is a valid point, as I said, but we have also already covered that ground earlier in the thread (i.e. the point's been made, and you've made it again- reasonably, I'd add- as well).

kanebbcksc wrote:
Hey all, I apologize in advance if this has been asked already (couldn't find it), but does anyone know if:
I pledge at Cruel level but don't want four factions, can I trade in two factions worth of stuff for add-on value? Thanks!

Yes, you can. There's a lot of info in the FAQ's at the bottom of the kickstarter page. But, basically, you can switch any faction pieces for other pieces of the same type--bosses for bosses, sidekicks for sidekicks, etc. Means its hard to get to cavalry models for a single faction, but you can focus on one faction with the trade-ins.

I didn't even know kickstarter was there. I was looking at Dreadball, as I was researching it most sights and links pushed me to kickstarter and I saw the crazy deal I was a few months too late on.

I did notice a really cartoony looking wild west game, but I'm not into overly cartoony models which is why I started buying more GW products after the turn of the century. At this point, I can't STAND the look of most of their older models. So some of it is the gaming buzz has just come back, and after looking at what was out there, dreadball caught my eye (obviously since it started this) and I've been searching for some stuff since.

I just looked up Maulifax and remember seeing figures in Seattle, but they never really struck a chord with me. I think growing up in PA I studied Civil War History and so a lot of the look of WWX just speaks to me. I've heard this "victors right history" stuff, but the Civil War is interesting. Plenty of Officers from the north were villainized after the war while the great leaders of the South were glorified. I think if any war in US history told it how was when the dust settled, that was the one. And as an American you should know we have no problem making our own look bad in our written history.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Robert E Lee was not a villian. To this day he is still regarded as one of the greatest generals and most beloved generals. Only fools dared tarnish his name at any point. The man was just revered.

Earth Dragon wrote:
I didn't even know kickstarter was there. I was looking at Dreadball, as I was researching it most sights and links pushed me to kickstarter and I saw the crazy deal I was a few months too late on.

I did notice a really cartoony looking wild west game, but I'm not into overly cartoony models which is why I started buying more GW products after the turn of the century. At this point, I can't STAND the look of most of their older models. So some of it is the gaming buzz has just come back, and after looking at what was out there, dreadball caught my eye (obviously since it started this) and I've been searching for some stuff since.

I just looked up Maulifax and remember seeing figures in Seattle, but they never really struck a chord with me. I think growing up in PA I studied Civil War History and so a lot of the look of WWX just speaks to me. I've heard this "victors right history" stuff, but the Civil War is interesting. Plenty of Officers from the north were villainized after the war while the great leaders of the South were glorified. I think if any war in US history told it how was when the dust settled, that was the one. And as an American you should know we have no problem making our own look bad in our written history.

FYI, neither of the Wild West miniatures that I mentioned are cartoonish at all, in fact Blackwater Gulch takes a very historically accurate approach to their game with realistic proportions, and are a company with a much smaller backing than Outlaw (i.e. they're missing that battlefoam bump ). And as someone that grew up and live in Ohio, I'm perfectly aware of how people were glorified and villified on both sides of the war, but your statement of, "(Not looking forward to Robert E Lee viewed that way at all)" is a view 'generally' taken by people from the Southern States, in the deeper parts... It just surprises me to hear that come from someone from PA. Edit: Though I know that Lee didn't fight because he supported slavery, he fought because he believed more in state's rights...

And I know it has been discussed RiTides, I had dropped it until someone responded to me, no need to pick lil ole me out of the crowd .

Also why is Sitting bull a wolf? Why not a bull?

Well I'm guessing you really hate Twilight......

Look, I don't know why this is bending you so out of shape about a shapeshifting Werewolf. The Warrior Nation faction is hellbent on protecting their homeland from this crazy new technology, and since they don't have much themselves, they tap into the earth's spirit and harness extra powers. They want to wipe out all others, and actually have some sort of bonus objective that no matter what scenario you are playing, you get bonus points if you wipe out the other player.

I got that from a podcast I listened to. They were one of the teams was really excited about. So it isn't your flavor, I get it, but it helped draw me in. Lycans are awesome. Why DOES anyone else need to shapeshift? Why can't that be their thing? Why does it bother you that only they can do it?

Like you said earlier, the biggest benefit of using an alternate history is that you have an endless number of historical figures to recreate in the game. One of the guys in WWX forums was pushing for the head Ute Chieftan of the time. So while it is a bummer to some, it is a major plus to others.

I you don't like it play something else, but you are starting to just troll if you can't drop that point.

Earth Dragon wrote:
Well I'm guessing you really hate Twilight......

Never read twilight because the background of the story didn't interest me, it was a terrible love story at best.

Look, I don't know why this is bending you so out of shape about a shapeshifting Werewolf. The Warrior Nation faction is hellbent on protecting their homeland from this crazy new technology, and since they don't have much themselves, they tap into the earth's spirit and harness extra powers. They want to wipe out all others, and actually have some sort of bonus objective that no matter what scenario you are playing, you get bonus points if you wipe out the other player.

1) Like Buzzsaw has stated earlier, the idea revolving around making Native Americans into human/animal hybrids could be seen by some as making them sub-human, which is already stepping on toes. If the company wanted to sidestep that issue, then sprinkling werewolfs and other lycans throughout the factions would show that it's something else that is happening with humanity as a whole, instead of just with the Native Americans. It could easily have been included as a fluff entry as something that is happening because of the rapid technological growth, that mother nature is rebelling by pulling humans back towards their animialistic roots. Spread that throughout the game and you have conflict, it's considered a malady for some, but the Wild Nation embraces the gift and seeks to free those in the "civilized" lands and bring them into the fold.

2) Calling them the Wild Nation implies that they don't have a culture or a society, it's like calling the free folk in A Song of Ice and Fire wildlings because their society doesn't conform to the societal norms of the rest of Westeros.

I got that from a podcast I listened to. They were one of the teams was really excited about. So it isn't your flavor, I get it, but it helped draw me in. Lycans are awesome. Why DOES anyone else need to shapeshift? Why can't that be their thing? Why does it bother you that only they can do it?

Don't get me wrong, I greatly enjoy Native American culture, that is one of the reasons why I studied it when I was younger, I was really into the Sioux nation, and specifically the Hunkpapa tribe, which is why I'm a little confused as to why the game has Chief Sitting Bull as a wolf, a minotaur like creation of part human/part bison would have been more apt imo if the game were to keep this "primal" side of things. Why couldn't the Native Americans have been given bonuses when fighting technology? Perhaps they've learned tricks of the trade, why don't they fight with trained animals? I mean there are plenty of ways to keep the Native Americans interesting in the game without making them were-people...

I you don't like it play something else, but you are starting to just troll if you can't drop that point.

Cincy has told me this once before:

 cincydooley wrote:
What's worse is that it seems that they're simply making excuses all the while holding their noses in the air to anyone critical of them.

"Oh. You don't like how we're doing it? Fine, well take our ball and you can wait until your local shop gets one."

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt until Saturday, but my patience for the nonsense is wearing a bit thin.

I'm not trolling, I'm just trying to learn the hows and whys of the product before I even think about backing it...

Earth Dragon wrote:
Well I'm guessing you really hate Twilight......

Are you saying you like Twilight? .

I you don't like it play something else, but you are starting to just troll if you can't drop that point.

It isn't trolling. It's an incredibly valid point and the fact that their "power" is to revert them to an even more savage form is a understandable reason for someone to be offended. It doesn't exactly do anything to dispel the noble savage stereotype while the entire time removing the "noble" part. Now, it doesn't offend me but to say someone is trolling for voicing that very reasonable concern is ignorant and irresponsible.

Disagreeing with that opinion is fine. Calling someone a troll because you disagree with their opinion is not.

Two discrete points;

First, Sitting Bull occupies a very specific place in Native American history, a spiritual leader who was martyred by the power structure after a lifetime of struggle. In a non-trivial way he has a similar place to Martin Luthor King Jr..

Second, is the transformation from human into something non-human indicatative of a loss of humanity, or is it a more light-hearted, purely mechanistic and simple transformation? Well...


Yeah...

As I'm a grown ass man, I'm not a twitard, but the main point was Lycan abilities in Native Americans has become typical 21 St century cannon, and has been glorified as a good thing, not portrayed as demeaning trait.

Differences in opinions are fine, but if that is your complaint, at some point you have to accept it, or depart from it. I understand we Americans are trained to play the victim from a young age, but just griping about it won't change it. This is direction they went, and too many people feel it is a selling point for them.

I suppose I find it hard to buy the arguments as most Americans glorify all Native Americans these days and feel they are something to honor, even the Native American tribes that rape and pillaged other Native Americans well before whites showed up. That's the part that has me rolling my eyes. Someone does something cool saying "Indians were so bad ass they battle fantastic weapons with bows and natural spirit powers!!"

So I can respect a difference in opinion and not liking lycanthropes. I don't buy the "I'm a victim" argument. And that is the direction the game is going.

On a lighter note, one of the other things that drew me in initially were the barricades. Very multi-purpose, and like most kickstarters, very good price right now. I for one plan on buying a lot of the desert bases as well to go with my desert playing board. Very much a pain doing up bases, so hopefully they loom as good as I am picturing. I understand a little will be lost, but then Again, having a model standing on genuine sand can sometimes hurt the illusion. So maybe having an artificial base may help the illusion.

We'll see. Better not buy too many.

edit: Apparently I missed a whole page of replies.

 cincydooley wrote:

Earth Dragon wrote:
Well I'm guessing you really hate Twilight......

Are you saying you like Twilight? .

I you don't like it play something else, but you are starting to just troll if you can't drop that point.

It isn't trolling. It's an incredibly valid point and the fact that their "power" is to revert them to an even more savage form is a understandable reason for someone to be offended. It doesn't exactly do anything to dispel the noble savage stereotype while the entire time removing the "noble" part. Now, it doesn't offend me but to say someone is trolling for voicing that very reasonable concern is ignorant and irresponsible.

Disagreeing with that opinion is fine. Calling someone a troll because you disagree with their opinion is not.

I think, while it's fine to be wary of this sort of depiction in principle, in this instance it seems very much like people are looking very hard for a reason to take offense. First, none of the factions are noble, the entire point of the "alt" part of this alt-history seems to be presenting all the various groups in the context of their worst aspects; the law is authoritarian, the government is oppressive, the scientists are maniacs with no regard for ethics, the outlaws are merciless butchers, and the natives are consumed with vengeance. If the natives were the only faction being depicted unfavourably, that would be one thing, but they are not.

As to shapeshifting being some sort of "natives are sub-human" subtext, I just can't see it. Native American cultural traditions make them the most logical faction to adopt the "fantasy druidic spiritualism" mantle, and that's a trope which includes shapeshifting into animal forms in pretty much every fantasy universe in which the trope appears. Attempting to cast that as sinister, even unintentionally sinister, simply doesn't follow. As a counterpoint, look at the Union faction; would you think it rational for someone to use their less-than-favourable depiction as justification for accusing the miniature company of supporting slavery?