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As offensive or inoffensive as Sitting Bull the pacifist warrior of the Warrior Nation may be, you're all really looking too much into this. In fact, you're all probably putting more thought into all this than the designers probably did.

Take cookie cutter Cowboys, Indians, Outlaws, and WildWildWest Inventors. Apply historical figures and stereotypes. Done. It's really not that big of a deal that they named the character Sitting Bull or Geronimo or Hiawatha or Martin Luther King Jr. It's a giant savage wolf-man that cuts people with knives.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
I do realize how I'm cherry picking my argument by excluding Abe Lincoln and his axe-wielding mini, but at the same time there are historical parodies that already have Abe killing zombies and vampires, I think it's just the idea that these are "noble savages" and that it's okay to associate them with animals because native americans were close to animals and spirits and that ilk, they believed in such things. The problem that I'm seeing is, why don't we see werewolves with other factions? Why is lycanthropy limited to just the Wild Nation? *shrugs* like I said, it's most likely just me, its a personal thing, and it shouldn't stop other people from backing this game that like that aesthetic. I'd just like to know why...[/spoiler]

Man, no kidding! This is getting almost as silly as a person raising a stink over the Cleveland Indians or Washington Redskins franchise names... I don't see anyone complaining about Saltines being called crackers! Get over it! A-L-T-E-R-N-A-T-E R-E-A-L-I-T-Y guys and gals... it's not real! Make believe and all that. Might as well boycott GW since Space Marines are the most xenophobic racist species ever. Or, boycott Bolt Action since they have the Nazi armies. Geez...

kanebbcksc wrote:
Man, no kidding! This is getting almost as silly as a person raising a stink over the Cleveland Indians or Washington Redskins franchise names... I don't see anyone complaining about Saltines being called crackers! Get over it! A-L-T-E-R-N-A-T-E R-E-A-L-I-T-Y guys and gals... it's not real! Make believe and all that. Might as well boycott GW since Space Marines are the most xenophobic racist species ever. Or, boycott Bolt Action since they have the Nazi armies. Geez...

Mocking the vilified untermenschen and mocking dominant culture are two different things. I can't believe such an elementary concept is escaping you.

Earth Dragon wrote:
As I'm a grown ass man, I'm not a twitard, but the main point was Lycan abilities in Native Americans has become typical 21 St century cannon, and has been glorified as a good thing, not portrayed as demeaning trait.

,.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to accept that the horrible, trashy drivel that is Twilight has had any affect on "typical Native American" canon for the 21st century. As a self proclaimed "grown ass man" I'd hope you'd agree.

My point was not that it is offensive - I don't personally think it is - but calling someone a troll for thinking it is is, like I said before, ignorant and irresponsible.

And the argument that "native Americans raped each other before the white man came along" is weak and far more offensive than anything this game portrays. To discount the horrible gak the white man forced upon those indigenous people is a pretty crappy viewpoint to take. The fact that you even present it reeks of bigotry.

No one is playing the victim. You pulled out the troll card and I called you on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kanebbcksc wrote:
Man, no kidding! This is getting almost as silly as a person raising a stink over the Cleveland Indians or Washington Redskins franchise names... I don't see anyone complaining about Saltines being called crackers! Get over it! A-L-T-E-R-N-A-T-E R-E-A-L-I-T-Y guys and gals... it's not real! Make believe and all that. Might as well boycott GW since Space Marines are the most xenophobic racist species ever. Or, boycott Bolt Action since they have the Nazi armies. Geez...

I don't think you understand what makes the "redskins" or the red faced Chief Wahoo offensive. Do you see any sports teams named the "Wops" or the "Chinks". Absolutely not. And we certainly don't see one called the "Ni#$*&s".

I'm certainly not about political correctness. My black friends are black and not African American. But man....there are definitely ethnic slurs and stereotypes out there that ARE offensive, the red-faced Native being one of them.

As you are from Scandinavia, I understand you have not visited the dozens of Native American tribe shows in the Northwestern United States. Many of them hold shows about their cultures summoning spirits, shapeshifting, being magical healers, wolves taking to the moon to explain this that or the other thing, the whole works. There was a fairly elaborate one near Seattle.

If shape-shifting doesn't float your boat that's fine, but it's not an attack on Natives.

Earth Dragon wrote:
As you are from Scandinavia, I understand you have not visited the dozens of Native American tribe shows in the Northwestern United States. Many of them hold shows about their cultures summoning spirits, shapeshifting, being magical healers, wolves taking to the moon to explain this that or the other thing, the whole works. There was a fairly elaborate one near Seattle.

Don't make assumptions on my behalf, friend. It's sleazy and patronizing.

kanebbcksc wrote:
Man, no kidding! This is getting almost as silly as a person raising a stink over the Cleveland Indians or Washington Redskins franchise names... I don't see anyone complaining about Saltines being called crackers! Get over it! A-L-T-E-R-N-A-T-E R-E-A-L-I-T-Y guys and gals... it's not real! Make believe and all that. Might as well boycott GW since Space Marines are the most xenophobic racist species ever. Or, boycott Bolt Action since they have the Nazi armies. Geez...

Or, you know, maybe fiction doesn't prevent something from being offensive, nor does it stop people from disagreeing with its message. Lots of propaganda's been make believe, but that doesn't stop it from being offensive, racist, etc. Not saying that WWX necessarily crosses the line, but "make believe" isn't an excuse.

And now were actually arguing over the redskins.......

Sorry but we have gotten way off

I can't believe this is turning into a political statement

Earth Dragon wrote:
I can't believe this is turning into a political statement

Nearly every action in society is a political action. We just don't recognize them as such.

Well, I don't like to give money to people I disagree with if I can help it, so, well, I found the native american portrayal argument worth commenting on. It's not something I'm personally invested in enough to get upset about it, but it certainly hasn't endeared the designers to me, either.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

Earth Dragon wrote:
As you are from Scandinavia, I understand you have not visited the dozens of Native American tribe shows in the Northwestern United States. Many of them hold shows about their cultures summoning spirits, shapeshifting, being magical healers, wolves taking to the moon to explain this that or the other thing, the whole works. There was a fairly elaborate one near Seattle.

Don't make assumptions on my behalf, friend. It's sleazy and patronizing.

Then don't assume that were stuck up Americans trying to disrespect "the conquered". The point is we made too much progress in the last generation to have people act like that is the case.

As some have proven, they had no clue that Robert E Lee is celebrate as a great man everywhere, regardless that he fought for the South. Same with Longstreet, Stonewall, Pickett......it's just ignorant to claim we piss on the "conquered" these days.

If you guy are looking to make a political statement, this really isn't the right venue, and that's what makes it trolling

You're really missing the point here. And please, do not speak on behalf of the rest of the Americans involved in this conversation making cogent points.

No one is trying to make a political statement, and you seem to be missing that fact. People have simply stated they question whether or not portraying this group of people as the most obvious and lazy trope is the best option.

@cincydooley (sp?) I think I know exactly what some may find offensive about it, and since my family has Cherokee descendants (I'm 4th generation) I think I can comment on it. We, my family, doesn't it find it offensive at all, just kinda silly! I was born in northern Ohio and had to hear plenty about the "Indians" team name being offensive. Usually, from "White Americans" funnily enough! Ask most Native Americans and they will likely tell you that they don't find this kind of drivel offensive. Anyway, that's the last I'm gonna say on this silliness...

WWX has some pretty cool concept art and model design; I hope there is huge surge over the next week in pledges... I want the Lawmen!!!

Cincy, now you are speaking for others. Go read some of those comments. One guy was clearly playing a victim bringing in MLK and other stretches.

I plan on playing the Warrior Nation. They have a unique feel compared to the rest. They have interesting figures, including a 3-man team that calls an invincible spirit that only goes away after killing the three spirit callers. It's a draw for me, someone who has some Native American in me from my mothers dad.

I do not view this as insulting or any different then what others have done in other games, whether it's an "evil" central church organization, the Norse are all servants of chaos, egyptians are always skeletons.....far worse travesties have been portrayed then an "alternate reality" that let's me assist Native Americans in defending their homeland

some people really need to remove the broom that is stuck up theyr ass. This is as ridiculous as complaining about the hell dorado saracen factrions.

streetsamurai wrote:
some people really need to remove the broom that is stuck up theyr ass. This is as ridiculous as complaining about the hell dorado saracen factrions.

It's truly a disgrace that our community has devolved to a point where this kind of comments are allowed to be aired, I agree. You're not a part of the solution, though, you're a part of the problem, friend.

In some native american cultures there was a belief in skinwalkers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin-walker

all wwx did was make the myth "true" in there setting.
My opion is that the shapeshifting makes them more than human not less. I really like the concept and thank it will be fun to paint.

you guys realize that these are little plastic men Right? it is supposed to be fun!

and personally Im gonna have to agree with streetsamurai that some people need to get over themselves. ITS LITTLE PLASTIC MEN FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!

And the Censored Eleven are just cartoons, eh?

My Outlaws are going to Kill Rape & Burn there way through WWX they won't care about the color of anyone skin. They will only care about the coin in your purse and the gold in your teeth.

I think it best if we leave this particular tangent, if people desire they can split it off to the discussion board or the OT zone.

That way this thread can stay focused on the project.

Thanks.

This doesn't look awful. I'd be curious to learn how the rules actually play out in the practice as that's basically issue #1 for me in games.

The models also look like they're nice. I'll agree that the Native American stuff is poor taste as I actually cringed when I scrolled past it. I don't think it puts the line into the "Unplayable" category for me, but it's defiantly a check in the "minus" column. That said since we're not supposed be discussing that particular aspect of it, I'll avoid commenting in any further depth.

Hi guys,
I thought I that I would come and join the discussion if I may. The role of good and bad within WWX is not really associated to each faction per se. I have not seen anyone mention the Dark Council yet (I may have missed it though) and they are a huge roll within the WWX universe. It is due to their manipulation of each faction that has caused this resulting divide between the people. Why? I don't know the purpose as of yet. But I am sure that the Warrior Nation do, as they are the only people to either withstand their power (if power is what the Dark Council have) or avoid it. To me, I believe when we find out how they attune themselves to the earth, we may learn this secret imho. As to the good and bad, well that has always been a view point that changes dependant upon your current position within the world. What if the Dark Council are actually the good guys? What if there were very few of them, and they would not be able to survive in harmony with the other factions around for fear of extinction? Therefore to be able to survive, they would have to limit the number of the opposition by killing them somehow or by allying with one or more factions. As we understand that the Dark Council is now a manipulative race/faction/group of people, we could also surmise this is because it would be the best tactic to reduce numbers, as every death on either side, would only benefit the Dark Council, irrespective of the victor. This is only a colourful theory in my head and I am sure I will come up with lots more before we find out, hehe.

Although the Enlightened look like zombies, they are indeed engineers and inventors, that when corrupted by the Dark Council, have been able to modify their bodies to better there own standing within the universe, for defence or for aggression? I am also unsure at this time.

Personally, I am going to lean towards the Warrior Nation, as both the models look awesome (you may of heard me say that a few times now I think, hehe) and I like the idea of becoming one with the earth (not in a hippy way, more like an understanding how the earth balances itself). I used to be in to long distance running, camping, mountaineering and rock climbing, so that is how I summarise my connection with them, I really like the energy beast horses also, as they look strong and thick set and have a bit more character about them.

Anyway, trying to keep it short. So I will give someone else a chance to come up with a theory

Mick

I like a number of the models individually, but overall, as a game, it's just another set of tired stereotypes and overused ideas. When I first saw the use of historical figures, I thought "that is kind of neat", but as I look at it more it leaves me feeling a bit nauseous and seems a bit disrespectful to our histories. Do we really need another Abe Lincoln, Vampire Hunter?

I'll probably pick up some of the individual models, but will pass on the game as a whole.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

kanebbcksc wrote:
Man, no kidding! This is getting almost as silly as a person raising a stink over the Cleveland Indians or Washington Redskins franchise names... I don't see anyone complaining about Saltines being called crackers! Get over it! A-L-T-E-R-N-A-T-E R-E-A-L-I-T-Y guys and gals... it's not real! Make believe and all that. Might as well boycott GW since Space Marines are the most xenophobic racist species ever. Or, boycott Bolt Action since they have the Nazi armies. Geez...

Mocking the vilified untermenschen and mocking dominant culture are two different things. I can't believe such an elementary concept is escaping you.

You've still singularly failed to demonstrate that the intention, or even the result, is to mock.

Mick- you said Warrior Nation, as I did, but I've seen others say Wild Nation. It's "warrior", right?

I am wondering about putting a trollbloods war wagon chassis on the back of that Elk

It is Warrior Nation, I misread it, and for that I am sorry

I originally was looking at it on my phone, and never bothered to check it once on a proper desktop.

RiTides,
It is indeed Warrior Nation as Alfndrate now suggests. I really think that this army will suit me down to the ground, as it is in-your-face action with a naughty axe of +5 Badassness I am hoping the Warrior Nation can benefit from their bosses by getting animal traits which represent the boss. E.g. Wolf boss allows quicker movement and CC abilities, Hawk boss could allow hit and run tactics, Scorpion boss = killing blow, Spider Boss = climbing terrain at normal speed. These are me just thinking of random animals, as I am unaware what animals you have, so just thinking of cool abilities tbh.

Any more news on that sweet train and the ability to purchase additional track sections?

 Alpharius wrote:
Any more news on that sweet train and the ability to purchase additional track sections?

Seconded! That's the most exciting part of this KS for me so far (well, that and the thought of adding pipes to those buildings for WM)