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So as anyone who has ever wanted to play a renegade marine chapter you find that the Chaos book is just too daemony. You learn to just use the C:SM for your chapter.
At the same time CSM players complain and moan about not getting good landraiders, plasma cannons, stormbolters, razorbacks, TFC, Landspeeders or SS. They rightly point out that post heresy marines have and do turn traitor every year and it would be natural for some of thier gear to come as well instead of them just suddenly losing all their post heresy weapons and go antiquing. This is all right and good, CSM need a different feel from loyalists, they shouldnt be C:SM++ even though that seems to be what the other loyalist chapters are.

But then how do you represent renegade warbands that might have taken a dozen or so razorbacks with them when they left?
It's not like there was some new game mechanic in 6th that allowed you to have multiple armies on one side of the table. O wait allies!

So I propose that CSM and C:SM become allies. Preferably of the battle brother type. I would put a further restriction on it that no C:SM special characters can be used, just straight up C:SM with chapter tactics. Really CSM should be the primary detachment as well.

Thoughts?

Honestly, that isn't a half-bad idea. Guard are AoC w/ CSM to represent Traitor Guard (at least I assume so, otherwise GW really did just write the Allies table by throwing darts), so it's not that unreasonable for SM to be allied as recent renegades.

 Exergy wrote:

But then how do you represent renegade warbands that might have taken a dozen or so razorbacks with them when they left?

By playing a Codex Space Marine army. Problem solved.

 Exergy wrote:
So as anyone who has ever wanted to play a renegade marine chapter you find that the Chaos book is just too daemony. You learn to just use the C:SM for your chapter.
At the same time CSM players complain and moan about not getting good landraiders, plasma cannons, stormbolters, razorbacks, TFC, Landspeeders or SS. They rightly point out that post heresy marines have and do turn traitor every year and it would be natural for some of thier gear to come as well instead of them just suddenly losing all their post heresy weapons and go antiquing. This is all right and good, CSM need a different feel from loyalists, they shouldnt be C:SM++ even though that seems to be what the other loyalist chapters are.

But then how do you represent renegade warbands that might have taken a dozen or so razorbacks with them when they left?
It's not like there was some new game mechanic in 6th that allowed you to have multiple armies on one side of the table. O wait allies!

So I propose that CSM and C:SM become allies. Preferably of the battle brother type. I would put a further restriction on it that no C:SM special characters can be used, just straight up C:SM with chapter tactics. Really CSM should be the primary detachment as well.

Thoughts?

For starters, Storm shields are old tech, as are thunder hammers and plasma cannons. Both sides should get both and SMs of all flavours should get autocannons (yes I really want autocannons on my Long fangs). I dig the idea of a new CSM LR but it doesnt need to be the crusader or redeemer variety, its not like the dark mechanicus cant make their own modifications. Razorbacks should really be available but thats just me wishlisting. I'd like to see some sort of speeder or something that fills the same roll for chaos.

Allowing allied force then imposing restrictions but then having them as battle brothers, might as well just use the base rules and costs for the things you want in the CSM dex and just use them in friendly games.Would be a lot less hassle.

 Bausk wrote:

For starters, Storm shields are old tech, as are thunder hammers and plasma cannons.

Age does not equate to maintainability or production.

Space Marine legions had jetbikes companies. Now, you can count their number across loyalists and traitors on one finger.

What they had then is no factor in what they have now.

I'd accept CSM/SM as allies with no Special Characters as a house rule, definitely. Maybe allow Huron, the Red Corsairs are supposed to be composed of almost entirely recent renegades. Before the 4e book their paint scheme was literally red 'X's drawn across the eagles on regular Space Marine armor.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

For starters, Storm shields are old tech, as are thunder hammers and plasma cannons.

Age does not equate to maintainability or production.

Space Marine legions had jetbikes companies. Now, you can count their number across loyalists and traitors on one finger.

What they had then is no factor in what they have now.

Yeah except chaos has the Dark mechanicus and warpsmiths. Both of which are over 10 thousand years old and probably made and maintained these weapons by hand. The imperium cannot claim the level of skill in their number. Add to this they are no longer bound by the imperial rules for modifcation or even the laws of physics on when they are in the warp. I get the impression its something other than Maintenence or production as both are more easily achieved by the chaos counterparts.

EDIT: I would caution a guess that the old jetbikes were made with the aid of an outside source, considering how much the imperium sucks at anti grav tech.

Storm Shields (atleast in the Contemptor Dread Fluff) where made after the Horus Heresy. They took the invulnerable save that protects an entire Dreadnought into a man portable shield.

Probably one of the last few things they made that was innovative, up there with Land Speeders.

Crazyterran wrote:
Storm Shields (atleast in the Contemptor Dread Fluff) where made after the Horus Heresy. They took the invulnerable save that protects an entire Dreadnought into a man portable shield.

Probably one of the last few things they made that was innovative, up there with Land Speeders.

Pfft contemptors fluff, Storm shields were fine as small area conversion field generators before forge world made contemptors. But hey GW loves retconning this stuff,. Hell look at Ollianus Pious, retconned to miss the point entirely.... way to go. And I dare not utter the name of the race that was retconned out because it was too much like WHFB.....Funny how 6th eds coming around to be very similar to WHFB. So yeah keep it and those silly Art Deco SM jetbikes, I want nothing to do with it.

 Bausk wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
Storm Shields (atleast in the Contemptor Dread Fluff) where made after the Horus Heresy. They took the invulnerable save that protects an entire Dreadnought into a man portable shield.

Probably one of the last few things they made that was innovative, up there with Land Speeders.

Pfft contemptors fluff, Storm shields were fine as small area conversion field generators before forge world made contemptors. But hey GW loves retconning this stuff,. Hell look at Ollianus Pious, retconned to miss the point entirely.... way to go. And I dare not utter the name of the race that was retconned out because it was too much like WHFB.....Funny how 6th eds coming around to be very similar to WHFB. So yeah keep it and those silly Art Deco SM jetbikes, I want nothing to do with it.

Mind: Every piece of fluff in the entirety of 40k can be read as a compilation of in-universe information written from the perspective of somebody or other, not necessarily a 100% inflexible 'God says this' piece of information. This interpretation makes the retcons more sensible (updated information as new stuff is learned/recovered) and allows for more rational interpretations of a lot of things (Squats existed, then they were attacked by the Tyranids, and now nobody bothers to mention them anymore because they're no longer a threat).