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 Myrthe wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
... I just didn't appreciate it being insinuated that I / folks like me were just waiting to clean up on freebies! ... I am not at all happy with Wyrd, particularly their language towards fence-sitters...

I agree. And, as I mentioned initially, I simply wasn't aware of this early on because I happened to be pre-occupied with RL. It happens. I'm not "dawdling" and I do not like the Kickstarter with Kickstarter tactic. More importantly, I don't appreciate the tone and insunutations, especially when they are asking for my pledge to support their endeavor. At this point, I'm not too impressed and do not plan on pledging.

But SO WHAT if people DO want to see what freebies a KS campaign comes up with? Who is Wyrd to be the barometer of the "right" way to run a KS campaign and belittle those that have been "spoiled" by all the cool Kickstarters that HAVE offered freebies. They may not agree with offering extras, or be prepared to do so, but they don't need to belittle the people that DO appreciate the extras and pledge based on them. There are different types of consumers out there. Alienating any of them is just short-sighted and foolish.

Oh, and if they don't intend to undercut shops, why should I pledge now? Are they offering much more of interest? Signifigant discounts that would undercut shops? They've reached their funding goal and I'll just get it when it hits the streets if I'm still interested.

Where has Wyrd belittled people who want freebies or called people spoiled?

I'm not trying to argue the point either way, this is an honest question. I've kept up on the updates, but there's nothing like that there, and I'm not terribly up on everything so I would appreciate it if somebody could quote/link exactly where they did this? And yeah, I know they're giving out "thank you's" to early backers, but there are also stretch goals and this could just be a tactic to keep people interested during the busy holiday season. So, if somebody wouldn't mind telling me where the statement that they look down on people who want freebies comes from I would appreciate it, it could help me make my own decision.

This thread is stupid. Everyone has made their point and any more arguing either way is pretty futile. Back it or don't, just shut up about it.

 Ozymandias wrote:
This thread is stupid. Everyone has made their point and any more arguing either way is pretty futile. Back it or don't, just shut up about it.

I think you're missing the point of an online forum.

If you don't like to discuss things in general... don't go to forums!!!


If you don't like to discuss the Malifaux Kickstarter in particular... don't click on this thread!!

whocares wrote:

Where has Wyrd belittled people who want freebies or called people spoiled?

I'm not trying to argue the point either way, this is an honest question. I've kept up on the updates, but there's nothing like that there, and I'm not terribly up on everything so I would appreciate it if somebody could quote/link exactly where they did this? And yeah, I know they're giving out "thank you's" to early backers, but there are also stretch goals and this could just be a tactic to keep people interested during the busy holiday season. So, if somebody wouldn't mind telling me where the statement that they look down on people who want freebies comes from I would appreciate it, it could help me make my own decision.

I'd be interested in this info as well. I assume its somewhere on thier own forum, but as much as I like and enjoy Malifaux, I'm just not getting much enthusiasm about this KS.

As far as I can remember, I'm the one who made the post about people wanting freebees but I don't remember belittling anyone. Still, I don't generally read Malifaux's forums or the posts on the kickstarter page so maybe somebody else has mentioned this.

Guys, the quote of me at the top of this page was taken out of context. I posted that while saying "But I appreciate Alf/Breotan's efforts" and will consider Malifaux in future, just not this KS.

As for the language, I was responding to Alf's, which I believe he posted mirroring Wyrd's. I have no idea if that's true... and honestly don't care at this point .

Just wanted to clarify that...

I was re-reading the Kickstarter page for this project and noticed something I missed the first time through.

"Male and Female Multi-Pose Minis: These multi-part plastic kits include weapons, pose, and clothing detail options to allow you to customize your character's model for use in Through the Breach or the Malifaux skirmish game."

It sounds like these models might be customisable to the point where with some magnitization you could basically have a model that visably advances as your character advances in the game. If this is the case it could be a very neat line of minatures. I might actually submit a question about it for the next Breach Side chat.

Also just so everyone remembers, the next Breach Side chat with Mack is this Wednesday at 11:00 am PST.

 Catyrpelius wrote:
I was re-reading the Kickstarter page for this project and noticed something I missed the first time through.

"Male and Female Multi-Pose Minis: These multi-part plastic kits include weapons, pose, and clothing detail options to allow you to customize your character's model for use in Through the Breach or the Malifaux skirmish game."

It sounds like these models might be customisable to the point where with some magnitization you could basically have a model that visably advances as your character advances in the game. If this is the case it could be a very neat line of minatures. I might actually submit a question about it for the next Breach Side chat.

Also just so everyone remembers, the next Breach Side chat with Mack is this Wednesday at 11:00 am PST.

Based on my experiences with their plastics so far, I think you'd have to be a REALLY talented or patient modeller to do that. Dont get me wrong; I'm very impressed with their plastics, but the joins are often very thin and would be an absolute bear to magnetize.

As to the questions regarding "belittling" from Wyrd: I don't know that it's been any sort of belitting on Wyrd's part. However, Wyrd has been very....adversarial...towards any criticism, and their response to it thusfar has pretty much been the "I'll take my ball home if you dont want to play with me" attitude, which is IMO immature and not at all customer-friendly. Basically, their attitude hasn't been "Oh you dont like it? What can we do to make you interested," but rather, "Oh you don't like it? Fine, we don't want your money".

Sadly, this attitude is pretty pervasive on the comments section for that kickstarter. Very few people commenting seem to care at all about any accountability for Wyrd. At this point, Wyrd has given next to nothing about specifics to this kickstarter. Compare it to the RPG that Buzz used as an exemplar earlier, and its worrysome that very few people find that a problem. Everyone ASSUMES the book will be around 300 pages. Why this assumption? None of the other Wyrd books are that long. Everyone ASSUMES the hardcover will be nice and well presented. Why this assumption? Wyrd doesn't have any other hardcovers, and therefore has no precedent for doing one. As far as concrete, printed information goes, we have a single table. That's it.

If Wyrd "doesn't want to use KS as a glorified Pre-order system or store" then why aren't they running it with the consumer-as-investor in mind? If you took their presentation to a bank, or an investment company, they'd be turned down. They've presented very little in the ways of concrete planning, which means they don't know (this is bad) or they don't think they need to be transparent with how they'll use the money (IMO this is worse). Are the folks at Wyrd going to take a consumer paid vacation to Hedonism in Jamaica? Who knows.

People are SO ready to jump down the throat of GW for ANYTHING perceived as a miscue, but when a smaller company does it, people simply fall in line like lemmings. Then, those of us that present valid criticisms and real concerns are ostracized for it. Blows my mind.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Ozymandias wrote:
This thread is stupid. Everyone has made their point and any more arguing either way is pretty futile. Back it or don't, just shut up about it.

I think you're missing the point of an online forum.

If you don't like to discuss things in general... don't go to forums!!!


If you don't like to discuss the Malifaux Kickstarter in particular... don't click on this thread!!

This thread is in news and rumors, if you want to have a discussion, there is a forum for that. Arguing for 20 pages isn't a discussion anymore, it's everyone saying the same thing over and over again but in a slightly different way.

 cincydooley wrote:
People are SO ready to jump down the throat of GW for ANYTHING perceived as a miscue, but when a smaller company does it, people simply fall in line like lemmings. Then, those of us that present valid criticisms and real concerns are ostracized for it. Blows my mind.

Wyrd fans are pretty hardcore defensive, mind. As much as I love the game of Malifaux, their forum is somewhere I massively avoid 'cos of this.

Agree with everything you said BTW. I've an interest in the RPG due to my love of the game, but I'll wait until I see it in a shop and have a look.

 cincydooley wrote:

Sadly, this attitude is pretty pervasive on the comments section for that kickstarter. Very few people commenting seem to care at all about any accountability for Wyrd. At this point, Wyrd has given next to nothing about specifics to this kickstarter. Compare it to the RPG that Buzz used as an exemplar earlier, and its worrysome that very few people find that a problem. Everyone ASSUMES the book will be around 300 pages. Why this assumption? None of the other Wyrd books are that long. Everyone ASSUMES the hardcover will be nice and well presented. Why this assumption? Wyrd doesn't have any other hardcovers, and therefore has no precedent for doing one. As far as concrete, printed information goes, we have a single table. That's it.

If Wyrd "doesn't want to use KS as a glorified Pre-order system or store" then why aren't they running it with the consumer-as-investor in mind? If you took their presentation to a bank, or an investment company, they'd be turned down. They've presented very little in the ways of concrete planning, which means they don't know (this is bad) or they don't think they need to be transparent with how they'll use the money (IMO this is worse). Are the folks at Wyrd going to take a consumer paid vacation to Hedonism in Jamaica? Who knows.

I think this is a pretty good summation of the situation. I think Wyrd is using the platform of Kickstarter to generate funds without the hard deadlines a true pre-order requires.

And, by intentionally targetting true believers, there will be less backlash if the finished product isn't as big/polished/on time as people expect. I doubt they'd think this way, but intetionally alienating the casual fan will help if there are serious problems down the line.

People are SO ready to jump down the throat of GW for ANYTHING perceived as a miscue, but when a smaller company does it, people simply fall in line like lemmings. Then, those of us that present valid criticisms and real concerns are ostracized for it. Blows my mind.

I think there are two factors behind that. The first is that GW has repeatedly shown a pretty cynical/indifferent attitude to it's customer base, making any misstep part of an established narrative. Smaller companies tend to have less history, and what they have tends to have strong positives to cling to.

The bigger factor is that GW is simply the manipulative on-and-off again girlfriend most people have that they can't get over. We want to love GW, and we want GW to love us back. GW doesn't, and so while we spend money and dwell on them, we take whatever petty retribution we can.

New companies are more like a puppy love. We haven't seen the flaws, and the relationship is more open on both sides. People are willing overlook bad things, because the good things are still new and exciting.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ozymandias wrote:

This thread is in news and rumors, if you want to have a discussion, there is a forum for that. Arguing for 20 pages isn't a discussion anymore, it's everyone saying the same thing over and over again but in a slightly different way.

Have you ever noticed that it's always the side getting pummeled that plays this card?

Not picking on ya, just something that we're all guilty of.

And if novelty were a pre-requisite for discusion, the internet would simply not exist.

Exactly, wyrd hasn't cheated on me yet, so when they call to say they'll be home late, I trust them.

I think Cincy brings up a good point with the book size. I quoted out many of the RPGs that Wyrd will be competing with and the size of their books. I think it is highly unlikely for Wyrd to produce a single 300 page book. Rising Powers was 254 pages, and that seemed a little thick for what Wyrd tends to produce.

You're more likely to see 150 to 200 pages per book, but that is simply basing this on what Wyrd has produced in the past as well as what competitors are putting out there. The Hardcover might suck, but all of their soft cover books have been fantastic in quality and production (barring the concept art that plagues most of book 2), I have bends in the covers from being an idiot, but they flatten out, they're good to go, and nothing is wrong with my books, all are still in good condition despite being used weekly for almost 4 months straight.

Glad we didn't scare you off Alf

I broke my own promise

And to be fair, Cincy's point about book size is valid, and warrants discussion.

The lack of info on the books are what killed it for me,

I was really interested in it, waited eagerly for the KS to go live so I could dive in.....

and no details, no info, nothing. I even PMd them and while the answered they didn't answer the question so I sadly pulled out

(if they'd even comitted to B&W & 100 pages for each books I'd have stayed)

Now with the potential bonuses falling away I can't see any reason to come back even if they do start to put out specifics

(yes I could have hung on to the last day in the hope info would appear, but it just seems wrong to do so)

and it just seems so strange, Evil Baby Orphanage was much better put together (not talking about free stuff, just the whole way it was set out and run)

I think the major difference between EBO and Through the Breach is when they decided to come out with the kickstarter. EBO was practically finished, and they simply needed funding to get it printed.

Through the Breach is probably at it's early stages and still have a good 4 months before alpha playtesting starts. This is not to say that backers won't start seeing things in January in the playtest forums, but based on previous book releases, major beta testing didn't take place until a few months before release.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I think Cincy brings up a good point with the book size. I quoted out many of the RPGs that Wyrd will be competing with and the size of their books. I think it is highly unlikely for Wyrd to produce a single 300 page book. Rising Powers was 254 pages, and that seemed a little thick for what Wyrd tends to produce.

You're more likely to see 150 to 200 pages per book, but that is simply basing this on what Wyrd has produced in the past as well as what competitors are putting out there. The Hardcover might suck, but all of their soft cover books have been fantastic in quality and production (barring the concept art that plagues most of book 2), I have bends in the covers from being an idiot, but they flatten out, they're good to go, and nothing is wrong with my books, all are still in good condition despite being used weekly for almost 4 months straight.

And this is where the "value for money" question comes into play. I think, as the gold standard for RPG core book publishing, one has to look at the Pathfinder Core Book. It is a monstrous 575 pages of full color RPG bliss. The book really is amazing. And the MSRP is only $50 bucks. And you can routinely find it online for $30 bucks.

I realize Paizo is larger than Wyrd, but it's hard to argue with the value in that book. Bear in mind that I'm not really an RPGer; Malifaux is the one miniatures game my wife will play, so due to that it gets played a lot and we both quite like it. I was interested in the RPG simply to read it and any exclusive models that they'd offer were going to be a bonus. But as it stands, for me they're simply being too quiet about their intentions. I don't understand why, because they've typically been much more customer-friendly. Those contrasts from their typical business as usual lead me to believe they don't really have a plan. And that's concerning.

Remember, there is no guarantee for delivery of product on Kickstarter. I'm not saying that Wyrd is going to shirk their consumer, but man...the lack of information just seems shady.

Oh, and BTW agreed with the present malifaux books. I really love them and all of mine have held up rather well.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I broke my own promise

And to be fair, Cincy's point about book size is valid, and warrants discussion.

I meant that genuinely (not sarcastic). Text is so hard to convey tone in!

 cincydooley wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I think Cincy brings up a good point with the book size. I quoted out many of the RPGs that Wyrd will be competing with and the size of their books. I think it is highly unlikely for Wyrd to produce a single 300 page book. Rising Powers was 254 pages, and that seemed a little thick for what Wyrd tends to produce.

You're more likely to see 150 to 200 pages per book, but that is simply basing this on what Wyrd has produced in the past as well as what competitors are putting out there. The Hardcover might suck, but all of their soft cover books have been fantastic in quality and production (barring the concept art that plagues most of book 2), I have bends in the covers from being an idiot, but they flatten out, they're good to go, and nothing is wrong with my books, all are still in good condition despite being used weekly for almost 4 months straight.

And this is where the "value for money" question comes into play. I think, as the gold standard for RPG core book publishing, one has to look at the Pathfinder Core Book. It is a monstrous 575 pages of full color RPG bliss. The book really is amazing. And the MSRP is only $50 bucks. And you can routinely find it online for $30 bucks.

I realize Paizo is larger than Wyrd, but it's hard to argue with the value in that book. Bear in mind that I'm not really an RPGer; Malifaux is the one miniatures game my wife will play, so due to that it gets played a lot and we both quite like it. I was interested in the RPG simply to read it and any exclusive models that they'd offer were going to be a bonus. But as it stands, for me they're simply being too quiet about their intentions. I don't understand why, because they've typically been much more customer-friendly. Those contrasts from their typical business as usual lead me to believe they don't really have a plan. And that's concerning.

Remember, there is no guarantee for delivery of product on Kickstarter. I'm not saying that Wyrd is going to shirk their consumer, but man...the lack of information just seems shady.

Oh, and BTW agreed with the present malifaux books. I really love them and all of mine have held up rather well.

The Pathfinder Core is the like that perfectly marbled Ribeye steak. I find almost nothing wrong with that book (except the back binding in my broke after a month of infrequent use, but I super glued it lol). It's got full color, great pricing, and all the fluff and crunch you want in an RPG book, and it was one of the ones I quoted on like page 3 .

Um... As to the communications issue, I think Wyrd is experiencing growing pains. As it stands right now, I believe Wyrd HQ and the warehouse are in Kennesaw, Georgia just outside of Atlanta. This is where Nathan Caroland, and other workers are. And then, 3 hours behind them in Sacremento is the RPG office, where Mack, EricJ, Justin, and maybe Jac work. Just a personal anecdote I work for a company here in Canton, Ohio that has it's parent office in Southern California, and we experience frustrating communication errors due to time zone differences and communicating purely by email and phone (instead of walking down the hall). And like I said on Wyrd's forums, should they not deliver the product... Well Atlanta is only so big .

I'll keep posting updates like I have, and I continute to urge people to ask their questions on the KS or Wyrd's forums where they can be handled better than just me.

Edit:

 RiTides wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I broke my own promise

And to be fair, Cincy's point about book size is valid, and warrants discussion.

I meant that genuinely (not sarcastic). Text is so hard to convey tone in!

I know you meant it genuinely, but I was sitting writing up my post to Cincy, and was like, "feth I said I was just going to stay out of this gak and just post updates." As long as there good discussions, I'll keep posting more than just updates.

On the topic of book size, quality and color.

From the first Breach Side Chat, it sounds like alot of this is still up in the air. Even though they aren't being particularly transparent about it I got the feeling that the more money they have pledged the more they intend to include in the base books. It could have been me infering to much though.

I wouldn't nessacarily be upset by a small page count RPG, if they still managed to get the essenace of Malifaux into it. It would almost be refreshing to not have to read 300+ pages of rules in order to run an RPG for my group.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I think the major difference between EBO and Through the Breach is when they decided to come out with the kickstarter. EBO was practically finished, and they simply needed funding to get it printed.

Through the Breach is probably at it's early stages and still have a good 4 months before alpha playtesting starts. This is not to say that backers won't start seeing things in January in the playtest forums, but based on previous book releases, major beta testing didn't take place until a few months before release.

The thing is that really doesn't seem right. As several people pointed out earlier in the thread, the process of developing an RPG from scratch is a reaaaaaaaly long one. If they are still in the concept stage it's very difficult to imagine how they are going to produce a polished project ready to ship in the time frame they have set.

Which naturally leads to the question "if they don't know what's going to be in the books, how in the world did they generate the pricing of their rewards structures?", but that's a question doubtless no one can answer.

By the by, those who think that this discussion is contentious, take a gander at the comment section of the actual campaign; even the mildest complaints there seem to be met with some variety of "you don't like it? GTFO!"

Interesting reading.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I think the major difference between EBO and Through the Breach is when they decided to come out with the kickstarter. EBO was practically finished, and they simply needed funding to get it printed.

Through the Breach is probably at it's early stages and still have a good 4 months before alpha playtesting starts. This is not to say that backers won't start seeing things in January in the playtest forums, but based on previous book releases, major beta testing didn't take place until a few months before release.

The thing is that really doesn't seem right. As several people pointed out earlier in the thread, the process of developing an RPG from scratch is a reaaaaaaaly long one. If they are still in the concept stage it's very difficult to imagine how they are going to produce a polished project ready to ship in the time frame they have set.

Which naturally leads to the question "if they don't know what's going to be in the books, how in the world did they generate the pricing of their rewards structures?", but that's a question doubtless no one can answer.

By the by, those who think that this discussion is contentious, take a gander at the comment section of the actual campaign; even the mildest complaints there seem to be met with some variety of "you don't like it? GTFO!"

I know. I don't know why I'm still posting in that. I really should just back away, but my irritation with this Kickstarter won't seem to let me....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

Which naturally leads to the question "if they don't know what's going to be in the books, how in the world did they generate the pricing of their rewards structures?", but that's a question doubtless no one can answer.

Exactly.

See, IMO, they should have a SET "phase 1" for this RPG. That would have been the baseline for the RPG. They should be able to state that the RPG will be XX number of pages long and will have an MSRP of $XX.XX dollars. Then you fund to that point, set a REALISTIC funding level to get you to that point, because they clearly haven't set an artificially low funding level so that they can provide awesome 'stretch' goals like other KSes have.

All the extra money? THAT'S when you say, "At 300k, we'll push development of 'The Breach's Outhouse,' the first campaign supplement to Through the Breach, and as a STRETCH GOAL (I know, these seem to be anathema to Wyrd) all of our backers at SWEET SPOT backing level will receive a free PDF of 'The Breach's Outhouse."

But they aren't doing any of that.

So that means their entire campaign is predicated on the fact that there are a bunch of feverant fans that will just throw down money sight unseen. Basically, they're taking complete advantage of that loyalty, and sadly many of the loyal refuse to see that.

In response to buzzsaw's comment on book size I'm just gonna throw this out there.

Endless: Fantasy Tactics's Kickstarter was something I worked on with the On the Lamb Games staff. There was a closed beta early summer for some DCMs, and at that point the rules were like 15 pages at most, and we had plans to flesh out the rest of the game up to the point we got to the kickstarter. I've only been involved with the actual rules writing, and not anything printer related, but the pdf document that backers are getting is slated for 150 pages. I'm sure that before the kickstarter was created (while it was still in drafting phase), Cy knew roughly how big the book was going to be based on budgets for printing, how big art was, etc...

While they may not have a lot in a big old folder that says, "Through the Breach files." I'm sure they have a good clue of the size of each book. But you could be entirely right, they could not know the size of the book.

Though if I remember correctly, we were looking at a hardcover printing for EFT, and to get an amazing deal at the printers, we'd have to get several hundred people to order the book. I think Wyrd might have that covered Printing costs aren't going to be as large as you might think.

But what do I know, I'm just speculating.

Argh. I was just looking at the Guilds of Cadwallon Page and for some reason found myself reading their risks and challenges portion. It's pretty clear and, while unlikely, they list problems that can occur.

On the flip side, Wyrd's amounts to them saying, "We got this." Argh.

I keep finding things that are driving me nuts about this project and Wyrd's bizzare attitude!

 cincydooley wrote:
Argh. I was just looking at the Guilds of Cadwallon Page and for some reason found myself reading their risks and challenges portion. It's pretty clear and, while unlikely, they list problems that can occur.

On the flip side, Wyrd's amounts to them saying, "We got this." Argh.

I keep finding things that are driving me nuts about this project and Wyrd's bizzare attitude!

I dunno...

I just went and read the Risk/Challenges section for both projects. To me the GoC lists there only challange as China and customs other then that the two read pretty much the same, maybe Wyrd is planning on printing in the US. To be honest I'd be worried if a succesful company was worried that it couldn't delivere on a project.

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Argh. I was just looking at the Guilds of Cadwallon Page and for some reason found myself reading their risks and challenges portion. It's pretty clear and, while unlikely, they list problems that can occur.

On the flip side, Wyrd's amounts to them saying, "We got this." Argh.

I keep finding things that are driving me nuts about this project and Wyrd's bizzare attitude!

I dunno...

I just went and read the Risk/Challenges section for both projects. To me the GoC lists there only challange as China and customs other then that the two read pretty much the same, maybe Wyrd is planning on printing in the US. To be honest I'd be worried if a succesful company was worried that it couldn't delivere on a project.

I don't disagree with you, but look at the difference in the tone between the two. It's sorta huge.

Good news is that I received the answer regarding the Hannah miniature: it is not a Kickstarter exclusive. Bad news is the response I received was questionably polite. Unsurprising as it falls in line with the peculiar attitude Wyrd has been operating with throughout the campaign.

Didn't they say it was an exclusive sculpt?

 Alfndrate wrote:
In response to buzzsaw's comment on book size I'm just gonna throw this out there.

Endless: Fantasy Tactics's Kickstarter was something I worked on with the On the Lamb Games staff. There was a closed beta early summer for some DCMs, and at that point the rules were like 15 pages at most, and we had plans to flesh out the rest of the game up to the point we got to the kickstarter. I've only been involved with the actual rules writing, and not anything printer related, but the pdf document that backers are getting is slated for 150 pages. I'm sure that before the kickstarter was created (while it was still in drafting phase), Cy knew roughly how big the book was going to be based on budgets for printing, how big art was, etc...

Aye, I got quotes for a 200pg full color hardcover print job before we did the Kickstarter so I'd know how much that would cost.