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Lol. I gotta say that demanding that GW provides gaming space is kind of unreasonable. Does the grocery store provide a place to cook and eat your food? Does sporting goods stores provide a place to work out?

I've played more or less once a week for the last few years, but I've never played at a GW store. In fact, the thought of playing at a GW store is somewhat unpleasant. All those ADHD 10 year olds in there, watching the game and touching my models. I've almost never been in a GW store without there being a bunch of kids in there, playing or arguing at the tops of their voices, and the noise level is almost unbearable.

No, I'd never go to GW to play, unless they had some 18 yr old age restriction. What I did was build my own collapsible gaming table, which I could bring with me, and with that in the car, it never happens that we can't find some place that's available for a game.

I understand that some people seem to think it is GWs responsibility to provide gaming space and I understand that it is not but for me it comes down to this:

As a company I think they have made some gakky decisions that very clearly say 'we don't care about people that have been in the hobby for a while, we are only interested in the new kids and their parents wallets'. I am happy to overlook that and will actually pay store prices for things if I can then hang out and get a game or two in. If not then why the hell should I buy direct when I can get it for 25% off online or 15% off at my FLGS?

It is by no means their responsibility to provide a place for me to play but at the same time they have to give me an incentive to actually buy their products at the prices they want.

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
Lol. I gotta say that demanding that GW provides gaming space is kind of unreasonable.

Complaining when a service that has been provided for a heck of a long time now is removed isn't really that unreasonable. Sure, there is no specific requirement for a store to have gaming space. But when the store has been providing gaming space for a decade and then takes it away, it shouldn't be too surprising that people who made use of that space will complain about it.

 insaniak wrote:

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
Lol. I gotta say that demanding that GW provides gaming space is kind of unreasonable.

Complaining when a service that has been provided for a heck of a long time now is removed isn't really that unreasonable. Sure, there is no specific requirement for a store to have gaming space. But when the store has been providing gaming space for a decade and then takes it away, it shouldn't be too surprising that people who made use of that space will complain about it.

It's not really unreasonable, they can do what they like. But it's a bit of a change in approach, they have tried to distinguish themselves from other companies based on their 'hobby centres' being able to offer more than products off the shelf, but support in gaming and modelling. Now there will be less hobby going on in their shops and just selling stuff off the shelves. But as they have been increasingly concentrating on younger customers that only last a year or so, it's a wonder they didn't do this sooner. There's just more money to be made in pushing starter boxes than fostering a community of long term customers.

Of course, it also flies in the face of GW's primary objection to online retailers.

Mark Wells' letter to those who complained about the EUvsRest of the World embargo stated that online stores are evil because they don't provide support to the hobby, as they can't provide space to game in... Well, neither do GW stores any more.

Hi there. Just to confirm, GW Hemel Hempstead has just been relocated to a smaller premises, and gaming tables need to be booked in advance. Shame, my growing Ork force will need a few games under their belt soon. Better than a store closure though. It was apparently one of the larger GW stores in the area from what I heard, though still a bit pokey compared to the old GW Luton.

Chatting to my local manger he says that GW want to create "independant hobbyists". It's meant to be part of a manager's responsibility to support the local gaming community by getting local & school clubs started and getting them registered with the GCN & GW's school league community.

It's not a case of grabbing new customers and then dumping them.

All my local GWs still have a regular gaming night for vet gamers as well as allocated times for those new to the game.
I've never had a problem over the past 10+ years gaming in GW stores- nromally get a game in a week on a gaming night.

 Lorizael wrote:
Chatting to my local manger he says that GW want to create "independant hobbyists". It's meant to be part of a manager's responsibility to support the local gaming community by getting local & school clubs started and getting them registered with the GCN & GW's school league community.

When I talked to the manager at the brand new GW in Oklahoma City she actually said something similar. We were talking about the two independent stores that are on the opposite side of the city and her words were basically this:

"We are in a good location, but we can't compete with the space the other stores have. We can be more competitive with inventory though and have a better selection for the most part. Our goal is to make sure that the other stores have healthy leagues and communities so that more people play the game since more people playing means more sales."

The GW has better inventory than Game HQ here in town, but New World Comics has probably almost the same amount of inventory. New World gives me a 10% discount though, although it is a 30 minute drive. So for my usual purchase I will probably just skip the 30 minute drive and not save $4, so for people living on the north side of town it is probably the same.

 reiner wrote:
From what I've seen of the recently opened GW shop in Kansas City, and what's been insinuated by the operators, the small intro stores are to basically gauge market saturation and drum up interest in under served regions. My guess is that if they generate revenue they either stay or upsize at the end of the lease, or if they don't they move out.

It's actually quite the opposite. GW are downsizing their stores, moving to smaller locations and shifting their focus from being a place for veterans to come and play to being a place to draw new players into their wargames.

Just proves GW doesnt know how to run a gaming store.

If you cant play the game you dont spend money on the games. Not everyone has the space for a 6x4 table, or the time to use it.

If you bring in guys and make them feel welcome and respected they will return to you for repeat business. GW on the other hand seems to be at war with its customers and doing everything they can to alienate and cut off avenues of support.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Just proves GW doesnt know how to run a gaming store.

If you cant play the game you dont spend money on the games. Not everyone has the space for a 6x4 table, or the time to use it.

If you bring in guys and make them feel welcome and respected they will return to you for repeat business. GW on the other hand seems to be at war with its customers and doing everything they can to alienate and cut off avenues of support.

Some folk like to game in stores, I don't, and would happily impulse buy in store even if I didn't game in it

actually a store stuffed with tables can be a lot harder to browse in, especially if they allow folk to eat in it too (stale takeaway + gamer funk = nasty)

Quite unfortunate. Sucking in new people is the easiest way to make money. I'm sure MTG makes more money off the starter decks/sets than anything else, much like how D&D makes most of their money off the three core books (or nine ). I can't think of a large-scale example at the moment, but the concept is universal.

I guess GW just works for their shareholders, and what their shareholders want is PROFITS, not a good company.

Keep in mind that GW's policy is to make less money then it can as admitted at a conference recently. So driving away regular customers makes sense given this policy.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Just proves GW doesnt know how to run a gaming store.

If you cant play the game you dont spend money on the games. Not everyone has the space for a 6x4 table, or the time to use it.

If you bring in guys and make them feel welcome and respected they will return to you for repeat business. GW on the other hand seems to be at war with its customers and doing everything they can to alienate and cut off avenues of support.

Some folk like to game in stores, I don't, and would happily impulse buy in store even if I didn't game in it

Yeah, but when they're trying to hook new gamers, the best thing possible is to have people playing the game. Not demo tables, because a parent might not want to wait 30 minutes while their kid plays this strange game in a strange store with a strange grownup, but actual games being played. Someone walks in and sees a 1500pt game going between two painted armies, and if they're interested at all, it'll hook them.

The tables are advertising space, and now they're not using them to their best effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Harriticus wrote:
Keep in mind that GW's policy is to make less money then it can as admitted at a conference recently. So driving away regular customers makes sense given this policy.

*sigh*

The point is for a gradual increase, not random spikes. This is the worst thing the trolls have latched onto, honestly.

The Gw in Belfast has gone from 2 4x4s and 1 2x1 40k into, to 2x1 for 40k intro and a 6x4, to the current 4x4 table with a 4x4 for intros. The LotRs and Fantasy have seperate tables that were never used for gaming.

They have also introduced a recommended 1500pts or under and 2hr limits. This is to help keep the games small, get more people in the small store, make it easier for the staff. Bet they'll introduce a 1-way system too.

There is a thread somewhere about it, but one of my 2 local stores (GW Poole) used to still have it's own bunker with about 16 off tables. They've now dropped this to 7 (better than many i admit) but with a max of 2 hours to be booked at a time - from open case to tidy away, people are saying it's hard to have a decent game

I still think it's unreasonable to demand that the store I buy goods in, should also provide space for me to use those goods. Being able to play for free somewhere is a privilege, not a human right.

I won't defend GW directly, I'd never defend a corporation, but in the face of all this bitterness I have to say what I mean. From my experience with my "local" GW store, at least half the people in there aren't there to buy anything. They're there to use free paints and equipment, or they're there to play games for free. I think this is way above and beyond what could be reasonably expected of a store.

When I stepped into a GW store the first time, I was extremely surprised that they had tables where people could play for free. I'm a cynical bastard, and I'd never even considered that a corporation would give something away for free. Which is what GW does when they allow you to use their stuff to play with. It's floor-space which they pay for, which is not getting used to stock the goods that they sell. I've never used their in-store tables to play a single game, not even when I started with the hobby, and not even for a demo game. I've always thought of it as a service to little kids who might not have anywhere else to play, because little kids are all I see using those tables.

Saying that not everyone has space to store a 6x4 table would have been fine, if there weren't simple ways to make the table into smaller sections. But I guess creativity doesn't come naturally to everyone. I have a 7'x4' table, weighing around 30 pounds, stored in three pieces in the trunk/boot of my car (which is a lot smaller than 7x4 I might add) and it takes up about 15 cm from the floor of the boot/trunk to the top of the table. And It doesn't even affect negatively how I use that space for other things, because the table is flatter than the floor of the boot/trunk, so it's actually easier to get things in there with the table stored there. And with a table this mobile, there's never been any problem finding a place to play. We can play at my house, my opponent's house, at my workshop, and we've even played in the corridor at a local "communal" workshop place without any problems whatsoever. All we need is a small table on which the center piece of my collapsible table will fit, and hey presto, we have a place to play.

To end this, I have to say that if I couldn't provide a space to engage in my hobby myself, I would never have taken up that hobby in the first place. I would never have depended on the charity of a corporation to engage in what I love to do. Depending on a corporation to do anything other than lining their own pockets with piles and piles of money, is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

It wouldn't be a problem, at least here in the UK at any rate, if there were any FLGS to fall back on but due to high rental costs, GW business practise and cramped, tiny retail units there really isn't an alternative for a lot of people. Places like the US are somewhat spoilt for choice; at least you have the option of a FLGS over a GW - for most gamers here in the UK, their local GW is the place they go for gaming and has long been this way. It is not unreasonable for GW to remove this facility; it is their train set after all, but you can hardly expect people to be happy about the removal of the option after such a long time. Whether people should expect GW to provide such facilities is another question entirely.

I think SgtSixkilla is painting a far too optimistic view of the "anyone can have a gaming table" issue. I will not elaborate on my own situation, but what he's describing is completely utopian and unreachable for me.

And that "I guess creativity doesn't come naturally to everyone" snark was uncalled for and mean-spirited. But I guess basic civility and a helpful attitude just doesn't come naturally to some people.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I think SgtSixkilla is painting a far too optimistic view of the "anyone can have a gaming table" issue. I will not elaborate on my own situation, but what he's describing is completely utopian and unreachable for me.

Of course, I don't know what your situation is like, but if you have access to a table (almost any size), which I expect most people do unless they're homeless (not meant in a disrespectful way, I've been there), and a wall to lean 2'x4'x15" of mdf (which isn't very big), then you have a place to play and store the table.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And that "I guess creativity doesn't come naturally to everyone" snark was uncalled for and mean-spirited. But I guess basic civility and a helpful attitude just doesn't come naturally to some people.

It is true, though, even if it may seem snarky and mean. Not everyone is a creative person. I know several people in this hobby who are definitively not creative people, they're more theoretically minded (number people). Just as your comment on civility and helpfulness is completely and utterly true.

The snarkiness of my comment was borne off the fact that some people here are unreasonably bitter towards GW for no longer giving them free stuff. (Even though most GW stores STILL gives away free stuff.)

 Reaver83 wrote:
There is a thread somewhere about it, but one of my 2 local stores (GW Poole) used to still have it's own bunker with about 16 off tables. They've now dropped this to 7 (better than many i admit) but with a max of 2 hours to be booked at a time - from open case to tidy away, people are saying it's hard to have a decent game

They are also closed Monday and Tuesday now as well as closing an hour earlier on the gaming night. This means for those in employment there is generally only 7 two hour slots useable. This was a gaming night that used to regularly attract 40 gamers, now can only realistically accommodate 14.

I certainly can't disagree with those that believe in a reduction of custom with a reduction of service. Personally I'm going to start heading over to Christchurch to start playing infinity again and maybe get started on malifaux as I will have the option to play alternate games there. From exclusively spending about £3-4000 a year in GW Poole that's gone down to about £4-500 this year mostly due to reduced motivation towards playing those games as the community has been diminished and doesn't inspire me as it once did.

 -Loki- wrote:
The point is for a gradual increase, not random spikes. This is the worst thing the trolls have latched onto, honestly.

Gradual decline to be precise, at least in sales and customers.

And IF the target customer is the teen, not all have room for 4x6 feet gaming tables plus money for terrain.
If a random person sees a bottle of milk, they know how to use it. If they see a plastic or resin miniature, they don't. Downsizing the meager remnants of marketing GW has, might free more money for the shareholders, but hurts GW sales.

 SgtSixkilla wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I think SgtSixkilla is painting a far too optimistic view of the "anyone can have a gaming table" issue. I will not elaborate on my own situation, but what he's describing is completely utopian and unreachable for me.

Of course, I don't know what your situation is like, but if you have access to a table (almost any size), which I expect most people do unless they're homeless (not meant in a disrespectful way, I've been there), and a wall to lean 2'x4'x15" of mdf (which isn't very big), then you have a place to play and store the table.

You also need opponents, I don't know about the rest of you but I'd get pretty bored playing the same 2 friends over and over.
Having a FLGS that actually has gaming space means you can go down and simply meet someone and play, where as the only real option if you can't play there is to try and start a club, which means finding (and paying for) space and then people to fill it *or* inviting randoms you meet at your gaming store home for a game.

Games workshop newcastle has closed its upstairs gaming area saying they cant supervise it and the shop at the same time

to be honest....why complain , there a buisness , they have to maximise retail space , there is no law for them to provide a gaming space.

Lets face it , GW is not aimed at anyone other than 10-14 yr old kids now, we are hooked then , then we grow up and form opinions , get mortgages etc , but still equate our games playing to when we were kids and 'better times'.

Find a online retailer (most of the worlds commerce is going that way) , find a church hall with a gaming group...enjoy 'the hobby' that way.

I did (and discovered more than 40k)...

 Synthetik wrote:

Find a online retailer (most of the worlds commerce is going that way) , find a church hall with a gaming group...enjoy 'the hobby' that way.

I did (and discovered more than 40k)...

Lol. This makes it sound like you caught religion.

Shops will be getting smaller because they're not making money. There's no 'grand plan,' all that talk of restructuring the customer approach is front of shop bumpf to conceal downsizing due to losses - something which is anathema to retail chains, for some reason. Running a shop in high street retail is massively expensive, and is growing more and more so in the UK. Having the kind of floor space required to host gaming tables costs a fortune. People are buying online more and more, whether from GW or 3rd parties, so the shops sales are going to look worse and worse when compared to their overheads. When you get this situation in retail, a company will do three things: reduce range, reduce staffing, and reduce floorspace.

Can GW afford to subsidise large shops to run at a loss? Maybe, I don't know, I haven't seen their finances. As it stands, they've clearly decided that it's not viable. It's a real shame, and something to get upset about, but it's just the reality of high street retail today. A lot of trades are going to be going away from brick and mortar.

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
Saying that not everyone has space to store a 6x4 table would have been fine, if there weren't simple ways to make the table into smaller sections. But I guess creativity doesn't come naturally to everyone.

So how small a set of sections would I have to make a table to fit where I live then?

To get a job I have had to move 150 miles or so away from the property that I own and in which my 84 year old mother is living. To get close to my job I am renting a place within walking distance, but that place is a converted garage no more than about 8 feet wide by 12 feet long. Inside that area is a shower, wash basin, toilet, fridge, microwave, my PC, a small chair to sit and watch the TV and a 3" by 3" table for the TV, my PS2, computer keyboard and mouse. There is a small collapsible chair for use when I am at the table. There is just enough space left on the table for me to do a bit of modelling providing I don't use too many paints at a time, or eat something. My 'bedroom' is above this in the apex of the roof and has enough space for a matress on the floor, a small table where I put a few models, a light, and a small portable DVD player as entertainment up there. My clothes are stored upstairs, along with anything I don't immediately need. (finished models, any model projects I am not immediately working on, etc)

I have lived this way for over 18 months and I will continue to do so as long as it ensures I have a roof over my head, my mother does not need to worry about having to leave her friends, and the both of us can eat enough. I cannot have my own gaming table under these circumstances, so my options are somewhat limited. Yes, I could probably store your 2'x4'x15" MDF table, but what would be the point when I definately do not have the space to make use of it?

So YES, not EVERYONE has the space to store a table, and there is no point storing a table if you don't have the space to USE IT! So there are more people than in your philosophy that rely more on GW tables than you need to. I don't want to feel like a leech asking friends to let me play at their house all the time, and whilst GW had tables to play on, yes I used them. Not a heck of a lot, but I did use them. Now with the prevalent GW attitude, and the reduction of thier store's utility to me, I might as well do whatever painting and modelling I want to do where I live, so there is less pressure on me to spend on GW products. (And having discovered "Dreamforge Games", I don't think I am going to miss them either!)

This is the problem companies wanting to impress the shareholders don't seem to understand. Many companies in trouble cut their advertising budget and their R&D budget, as they can see large amounts of money going into these departments and not a lot coming out. The problem is, if you cut your Research and Developement, you don't have the next generation product that everyone else is going to bring out - you've shot yourself in the foot. If you cut your advertising budget, then you don't bring in as many new customers, your old customers moan that they could have spent more money with you if only you'd told them that "New Product 'X' " was coming out.

By cutting down on the things GW have supplied for years, they are slowly cutting their own throats. They may think they are too big to be affected much, but the recent problems with "Comet" here in the UK, and the loss of the high street staple "Woolworth" a few years ago, ought to be giving them second thoughts. Too many companies are currently concentrating too much on gaining new customers without keeping hold of the ones they have. Customer loyalty is no longer a win situation for the customer, so they are learning to swap at the drop of a hat, and the individuals will be the only ones to win that game.

 htj wrote:
Shops will be getting smaller because they're not making money. There's no 'grand plan,' all that talk of restructuring the customer approach is front of shop bumpf to conceal downsizing due to losses - something which is anathema to retail chains, for some reason. Running a shop in high street retail is massively expensive, and is growing more and more so in the UK. Having the kind of floor space required to host gaming tables costs a fortune. People are buying online more and more, whether from GW or 3rd parties, so the shops sales are going to look worse and worse when compared to their overheads. When you get this situation in retail, a company will do three things: reduce range, reduce staffing, and reduce floorspace.

Can GW afford to subsidise large shops to run at a loss? Maybe, I don't know, I haven't seen their finances. As it stands, they've clearly decided that it's not viable. It's a real shame, and something to get upset about, but it's just the reality of high street retail today. A lot of trades are going to be going away from brick and mortar.

And yet GW are still opening stores almost every month in the UK and around the world.
They can't be doing that bad in the retail chain if they're expanding.
Going to 5 day opening must be more than just cutting costs too. I'm sure it does cut costs (bills & staff, not rent..) but also I'd imagine there would be a small loss of revenue too.

 Lorizael wrote:

 htj wrote:
Shops will be getting smaller because they're not making money. There's no 'grand plan,' all that talk of restructuring the customer approach is front of shop bumpf to conceal downsizing due to losses - something which is anathema to retail chains, for some reason. Running a shop in high street retail is massively expensive, and is growing more and more so in the UK. Having the kind of floor space required to host gaming tables costs a fortune. People are buying online more and more, whether from GW or 3rd parties, so the shops sales are going to look worse and worse when compared to their overheads. When you get this situation in retail, a company will do three things: reduce range, reduce staffing, and reduce floorspace.

Can GW afford to subsidise large shops to run at a loss? Maybe, I don't know, I haven't seen their finances. As it stands, they've clearly decided that it's not viable. It's a real shame, and something to get upset about, but it's just the reality of high street retail today. A lot of trades are going to be going away from brick and mortar.

And yet GW are still opening stores almost every month in the UK and around the world.
They can't be doing that bad in the retail chain if they're expanding.
Going to 5 day opening must be more than just cutting costs too. I'm sure it does cut costs (bills & staff, not rent..) but also I'd imagine there would be a small loss of revenue too.

No, that's not necessarily the case. Opening mini stores like this is a significantly smaller financial burden, and most likely sees them yield a positive return on their investment. The larger shops would be the ones losing them money, in the main, and smaller shops like this may well retain profitability.

Staffing costs are by a long, long way the greatest costs in retail. Generally speaking, when you have a declining sales situation in a shop you're better off closing certain days that are generally non-profitable, early mid-week days are normally the culprits, and save considerable on staffing costs. Sure, there's sometimes a hit in the revenue, but generally your customers will adapt and just remember to not come in on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, for example.

Finally, it's worth noting that they may well not be announcing closures, and only openings. That's just a stray thought though, I don't read WD so I don't know.