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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 04:00:22
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
Onuris Coreworld
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I recently played a 40k game against a friend of mine in which I as scorned for bringing cheese. So I ask you, people of Dakka, is this cheese?
To explain why I did what I did, I have to lay down what happened in my previous game against this same opponent. We always play at 2500 and usually bring 2 Force Orgs. Go big or go home we say.
He plays Space Wolves, I play Necrons. In our last game, he brought two bastions and filled them with Lascannon Longfangs and he also had 4 squads of heavy bolter Longfangs nearby. Long story short, I got pounded all game long because I had nothing that could hurt the bastions in anything but close combat and they where being protected from that. I only won because we got a game type where I had more objectives than him and he played a mostly static gun line, so he wasn't able to get to my objectives in time. He had 50% or more of his army still standing in the end, I had a just 2 beaten down squads of Immortals left holding 2 objectives to his one. Needless to say, he learned that when he brings fortifications, Necrons cannot beat Space Wolves in a long range duel.
Also something I must note. Normally Necron Flyers would be the answer to Space Wolf long range, but I (foolishly) told him he could use the Hyperios Missile platforms from Forge World. They have interceptor and are twin-linked. Meaning they would most likely shoot down my aircraft before they even got to do anything.
So, as the time of our next game approaches and I start to think of lists, everything I can come up with is being shot down. I know that our next game, he will bring fortifications and mass Longfangs behind and inside them and he will bring the Hyperios Platforms to destroy any Flyers I may bring.
I come up with several different things. Lots of Necron Warriors with Veil-teks? Nope, my friend is also fond of Grey Hunter spam, so I can't do enough damage before getting assaulted and therefore wiped(Not to mention his heavy bolters will eat Necron Warriors up). I can't bring Doomscythes to destroy any buildings he brings. I can't use Immortals in Nightscythes because the Scythes will almost certainly be destroyed right after coming in from reserve, leaving my Immortals to come from my table edge. I can't get Scarabs or Warscythe wielding characters in close combat with the buildings because they are surrounded by Grey Hunters. And finally, I fear to use Ghost Arks because his Grey Hunters usually have 2 melta guns and he usually has 10 Lascannon longfangs.
At this point, I am really cursing myself for allowing the Hyperios's because they are killing my defense against long range.
Finally, I come up with something. If I can't get to him, and I know he is going to mass long range with fortifications, I need a way to neutralize his long range without making my worthless.
My solution is to take 4 Overlords, 4 Royal Courts and 4 Crypteks with Solar Pulses. This is so I can make him use night fighting in his first 4 turns and not in mine.
So game night comes and I lay it down. I also bring 5 Doomsday Arks behind my own Aegis Defense line. Sure enough, he has brought massive long range fire power, all behind his Aegis defense line. He brings 10 Lascannons and 20 Missile launchers.
He also doesn't bring the Hyperios launchers, but the threat of them made me shy away from any aircraft, so the damage is done.
The game type is Big Guns Never tire and he goes first with more objectives on his table side than me.
The first 4 turns, he essentially has to just sit there and get hit by my Arks. Thing is, because he is going to ground behind his Aegis, after 4 turns of me shooting, I still only manage to kill 9 Lascannon Longfangs and his Warlord. A pretty puny amount of damage for 20 Str 9 Ap 1 large blasts hitting him.
The game ends on turn 6 with me winning by 2 points. I had First Blood, Warlord and Linebreaker and killed 2 of his Heavy Supports and held my 1 objective totalling 8. He holds 2 objectives for a total of 6.
He then proceeds to tell me this was the worst game he has ever played and that what I did was cheesy.
I have since tried to explain that every other option I had was putting a lot in the hands of fate. Hoping that his Hyperios wouldn't shoot down my Flyers, hoping he would roll bad for his cover saves etc etc. My point was why would I leave that in the hands of the dice gods when I could just do what I did and give myself a real fighting chance?
There you have it Dakka. So did I cross the line and cheese? Or where my hands tied?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/11/21 01:21:52
"Most mortals will die from this procedure...and so will you!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 04:03:06
Subject: Re:Is this cheese, or justified?
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Douglas Bader
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Your opponent played a static gunline with no ability to deal with anything that can avoid static long-range firepower instead of an army that is capable of taking on any possible threat. Tell your opponent to STFU and stop whining.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 04:07:50
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Lady of the Lake
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You more or less showed him how annoying his list was.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 04:13:01
Subject: Re:Is this cheese, or justified?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Peregrine wrote:Your opponent played a static gunline with no ability to deal with anything that can avoid static long-range firepower instead of an army that is capable of taking on any possible threat. Tell your opponent to STFU and stop whining.
This pretty much sums it up. /Thread.
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BlaxicanX wrote:A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 04:20:00
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Tough Traitorous Guardsman
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If anything you fought cheese with cheese so you did nothing wrong IMO since I would have done the same (IG barrage FTW) if someone brought played such an annoyiong list.
So good for you teaching him a leason xD.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 04:21:32
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Peregrine and nOt_u are both spot on.
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"To crush your opponents, see their figures removed from the table and to hear the lamentations of TFG." -Zathras |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 04:22:38
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Paramount Plague Censer Bearer
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If you really wanted to piss him off, bring 2100 points of wraiths and a Nightbringer.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/19 04:22:47
Meet Arkova.
or discover the game you always wanted to:
RoTC. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 04:22:52
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Nasty Nob
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If that's the worst game he'll ever play then he's pretty lucky.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 04:25:04
Subject: Re:Is this cheese, or justified?
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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It's not cheese, it's something else entirely.
When 2 people play each other exclusively, or at least fairly often, when both of you are competitive gamers, you get into these "paper-rock-scissor" arms races. He built an army that beats yours, so you build an army that will beat his, so he will turn around and build an army that will counter your doomsday machine/night spam. It's an endless cycle of paper rock scissors until one of you gets pissed off and quits, which it looks like is where he is at the moment.
You both need to stop making lists to counter the other and construct proper all comer lists.
If he still builds 6 long fang death machine lists, then try stepping down to 1999+1 point lists with 1 FoC. At least that way the amount of crap he can throw at you is limited.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/19 04:26:18
Looking for Durham Region gamers in Ontario Canada, send me a PM!
See my gallery for Chapterhouse's Tervigon, fully painted.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 04:34:09
Subject: Re:Is this cheese, or justified?
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Bane Lord Tartar Sauce
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To me it sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. Yes, your list was what many would call 'cheesy' (I personally prefer competitive or meta-gamed, admittedly a throwback to when I played MTG competitively), but by the sounds of things his list was infinitely worse than your own in terms of 'cheese'. You still had a close game and won because you figured out an effective counter to his extremely linear strategy. It happens and if you were a Magic player you would likely be applauded for your deck-building skills, rather than insulted and demeaned.
In short, tell your friend to STFU. Longfangs are one of the more overpowered units in 40k, and when you are playing a game where everyone has access to forge world AA nothing in the Necron Codex begins to compare to them. He brought 30 of them. You were entirely in the right to build your list to try to counter their effectiveness (and you did a very good job at doing so).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 05:26:32
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Been Around the Block
Kwinana, Western Australia
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"Cheese!" is the battle cry of the ill-prepared. He's a sore loser.
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Iyanden 2500 pts
Necrons 2500 pts
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 06:01:31
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
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The friend brought the Rochefort first, then he got angry when you brought the Edamer.
I'd suggest you guys agree before your next game, that you'll both bring uncheesy, all-comers lists next time.
Or someone who doesn't want to play WAAC lists.
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For The Emperor
~2000
Blood for blood's sake!
~2400 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 06:41:02
Subject: Re:Is this cheese, or justified?
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
Kansas City, Missouri
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Carnage43 wrote:It's not cheese, it's something else entirely.
When 2 people play each other exclusively, or at least fairly often, when both of you are competitive gamers, you get into these "paper-rock-scissor" arms races. He built an army that beats yours, so you build an army that will beat his, so he will turn around and build an army that will counter your doomsday machine/night spam. It's an endless cycle of paper rock scissors until one of you gets pissed off and quits, which it looks like is where he is at the moment.
You both need to stop making lists to counter the other and construct proper all comer lists.
If he still builds 6 long fang death machine lists, then try stepping down to 1999+1 point lists with 1 FoC. At least that way the amount of crap he can throw at you is limited.
you both need to play each other less, Carnage is 100% right i play once a week every week for about a year solid now and been playing for about 10 years to boot. If you are both taking armies perfectly designed to beat one another your orginal impulse is to escalate the tactic in your favor. For the longest time I would say "what you playing?... great okay I just need to build this." But a few years back playing orks ... well it got tiresome and someone said in passing how they hate when people do that.
I asked why because they will invariably do the same to you once your announce what you are playing. They had a surprisingly accurate response, "because if this game is all about having the perfect list against your enemy you will never be seen as a smart player, you are just taking what works." It boggled me for awhile cause to me victory meant success, but after a few days of thought i realized how right he was. Just because i took 15 burna boyz against nids or guards and then suddenly changed to lootas against eldar and dark eldar i started finding that i was swapping too much that i couldn't take a static list and just ... win.
This prompted me to actually understand the strengths and weaknesses of units to such a degree that i learned how important shooting was against enemies with high Init; that painful lesson was learned when i was assaulted by only 10 genestealers and lost my whole units of 30 boyz.. I learned how stupid it is fire at something right before assaulting it with barely enough charge distance (mitagated somewhat now)
The point is cheese turns into a fast slope but tome it isn't something you should feel bad about but should always strive to not use such tactics till it's forcefed to you like some armies right now. You both should just apologize and suggest this "all comers list" concept. It will honestly force you to play to the best of your abilities. Keep in mind that when you learn how to be aggressive enough to make an all comers list work maybe humor the idea of replaying these lists and seeing if you have both learned to play better.
Ultimately i think you both just need new enemies the talk of cheese is normally resentment for a person on a social level (i.e you friends can tell you how it is. a stranger won't) if you can join leagues or the like they really help you learn alot of armies fast.
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" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
List of Da Propahly Zogged!!!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 07:03:01
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Sister Vastly Superior
Colorado
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This is the exact reason my cousin and I both play multiple armies and don't tell the other what we are bringing. We play each other a couple times a month. Sometimes more sometimes less. But definitely often enough that if we only played one army we would probably want to punch each other.
We both have chaos armies. We played 3 games against each other after the new book came out. Both games we were both using chaos. Game 4 came around and we both laughed because we had both switched our armies expecting to fight chaos again. He deployed his Minotaurs, i played my sisters with a few GK allies.
Game 5? He played imperial fists, i brought my sisters book again. Next time? ill probably pull out my chaos daemons or necrons. The point is though that I will have no idea what he will play next time. So when im building my army I need to be ready for anything. He could be using eldar, chaos, vanilla marines with who knows what FW variant list.
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When in doubt burn it, then burn yourself for doubting. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 10:57:28
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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His list is about the definition of cheese, so tell him to shut it.
As others have said, go join a club and get a little variety under your belts.
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DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+
Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0
QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2
One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 11:56:43
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Focused Fire Warrior
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I think you have answered your own question. If you guys go big, then big can easily become cheesy. Like others have said, play some new people or agree to build TAC lists if you want more exciting games.
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Successful Trades: 2
"The human body is a paradigm of perfection and purity. Its makeup is an example to all lesser creatures and races (and be assured, all other creatures are less than human) that our place as dominators of the galaxy is right and just.” The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 15:48:38
Subject: Re:Is this cheese, or justified?
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Water-Caste Negotiator
Florida
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sounds like you use sound judgment and countered his unchanging list your suppose to learn something from you battles and your friend should have switched up his list assuming you would change yours as-well. i always kept 3 lists ready when me and my brother agreed to points that way id get a nice surprise when he expect one thing and gets another besides looks like you turned the tables on him so your both even if he calls your list cheese same could be said for his.
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Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results.
George S. Patton : The wode capn deaf klawz Freebooters Shas'O Storm knifes Shan'al |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 17:10:49
Subject: Re:Is this cheese, or justified?
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Smokin' Skorcha Driver
Canada
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Here's an idea I just had. If you want to be sure you have variety in your lists, think up six different 'gimmicks' you could base your list around. Like warrior hoards, flierspam... whatever (I`m not that familiar with the necron codex). And make him do the same with his army.
Then roll a D6 (or D3 if you can only make a few work with your models) and build your list around that.
I have no idea how well this will work, but if you try it then let me know!
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tgjensen wrote:labmouse42 wrote:Another problem is the abject masculinity of the game. Nearly every character I've read about has the emotional range of a turnip. Hate, Anger, Fear, Loyalty, and Worship. That's about it.
Christ, where do you buy your turnips? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 17:18:33
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Sounds like he had it coming really, running a huge fortified gun list.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 17:27:11
Subject: Re:Is this cheese, or justified?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
Hatfield, PA
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Just laughing too hard to type much at someone who has 6 units of Long Fangs on the table in a static defense gunline formation calling someone else's army cheese. That is just the best thing ever!
Sounds like you gave him what he deserved, but as others have said if you cut back on the points total and stick to one FOC you really limit the impact of such things. Yeah go big or go home is cool, until you get into the ever escalating army powerbuilding spiral that eventually leads to both of you hating each other and never playing the game with each other again.
Skriker
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CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points CSM 3.5k points
 and Daemons 4k points each
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 2.3k
EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 18:10:49
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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...If one side maxxes Heavy Support in a two-detachment game, they've given the other side carte blanche to min/max up the wazoo.
Also, I do applaud your use of Aeronautica units; they make the flyer game significantly more balanced through the addition of effective flyers and counter-flyers to every army.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 18:16:38
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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IG gunline players whining about cheese should be forced to wear a donkey-hat for an entire week. Seriously.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 18:39:33
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Battleship Captain
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Sigvatr wrote:IG gunline players whining about cheese should be forced to wear a donkey-hat for an entire week. Seriously.
There's many things cheesier than IG gunline...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 18:49:08
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Fighter Pilot
Strasbourg France
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Sigvatr wrote:IG gunline players whining about cheese should be forced to wear a donkey-hat for an entire week. Seriously.
He was playing space wolves mate, don't drag the IG into this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/19 19:41:48
Subject: Is this cheese, or justified?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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I'm surprised you didn't just bring imotekh and a chronometron. That combo alone causes my opponents (friends) to rage at the game.
It's basically free snap fire shots against everything on the board every turn it's in effect. Plus you get the nightfighting with him as well.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/21 09:00:06
Subject: Re:Is this cheese, or justified?
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Speedy Swiftclaw Biker
Charleston SC
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Something my friend failed to mention, (I am the opponent he is talking about) is that it was to be our LAST GAME!
I'm leaving for the military, and was strongly considering selling the army. Now, I could have brought 25 thunderwolves,
and mopped him up, but didn't, I also could have brought like 6-7 jaws priests, and wiped him out, but again, didn't.
I also said I was fine with not using the Hyberios anymore, even before the game, and he insisted that because he said I could,
he wouldn't go back on it, which was a kind gesture, but two quad-autocannon turrets would have dealt with his air decently anyway. Ultimately, if you really think that many long fangs is bad.
I could have done much worse, The game was basically a 3 hour snooze match.Where I couldn't shoot for 80% of it, and the rest of the time, most of my stuff was dead.
And he admitted that he just wanted to do anything he could to win our last game, because in his mind, I would "brag about winning" which is silly because this game means
nothing at the end of the day. I'm competitive, but couldn't really care less about w/l ratio, with this game. I just felt compelled to tell my side of it, because he showed me this discussion,
and left out that two of our friends also said what he did was lame, one went as far as to say he would have asked him to write a new list. I think he could have talked to me about it at the very least, because sure,
my list was tough, but 4 royal courts, and harps would have turned that bastion into paper in a turn. Then have a lord with a tachyon arrow, and boom, no more bastion, or hit
them with doomsday cannons. Call me a hypocrite if you like, but I'm not the one that admitted to in his words "winning at any cost". You might think my list was cheesey, but with no flyers, and dead weight entries in the SW codex, your only really
left with the auto-takes (grey hunters/long fangs, ect). And like I said, 25 thunderwolves would have steamrolled him bad, but I didn't do it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: Carnage43 wrote:It's not cheese, it's something else entirely.
When 2 people play each other exclusively, or at least fairly often, when both of you are competitive gamers, you get into these "paper-rock-scissor" arms races. He built an army that beats yours, so you build an army that will beat his, so he will turn around and build an army that will counter your doomsday machine/night spam. It's an endless cycle of paper rock scissors until one of you gets pissed off and quits, which it looks like is where he is at the moment.
You both need to stop making lists to counter the other and construct proper all comer lists.
If he still builds 6 long fang death machine lists, then try stepping down to 1999+1 point lists with 1 FoC. At least that way the amount of crap he can throw at you is limited.
you both need to play each other less, Carnage is 100% right i play once a week every week for about a year solid now and been playing for about 10 years to boot. If you are both taking armies perfectly designed to beat one another your orginal impulse is to escalate the tactic in your favor. For the longest time I would say "what you playing?... great okay I just need to build this." But a few years back playing orks ... well it got tiresome and someone said in passing how they hate when people do that.
I asked why because they will invariably do the same to you once your announce what you are playing. They had a surprisingly accurate response, "because if this game is all about having the perfect list against your enemy you will never be seen as a smart player, you are just taking what works." It boggled me for awhile cause to me victory meant success, but after a few days of thought i realized how right he was. Just because i took 15 burna boyz against nids or guards and then suddenly changed to lootas against eldar and dark eldar i started finding that i was swapping too much that i couldn't take a static list and just ... win.
This prompted me to actually understand the strengths and weaknesses of units to such a degree that i learned how important shooting was against enemies with high Init; that painful lesson was learned when i was assaulted by only 10 genestealers and lost my whole units of 30 boyz.. I learned how stupid it is fire at something right before assaulting it with barely enough charge distance (mitagated somewhat now)
The point is cheese turns into a fast slope but tome it isn't something you should feel bad about but should always strive to not use such tactics till it's forcefed to you like some armies right now. You both should just apologize and suggest this "all comers list" concept. It will honestly force you to play to the best of your abilities. Keep in mind that when you learn how to be aggressive enough to make an all comers list work maybe humor the idea of replaying these lists and seeing if you have both learned to play better.
Ultimately i think you both just need new enemies the talk of cheese is normally resentment for a person on a social level (i.e you friends can tell you how it is. a stranger won't) if you can join leagues or the like they really help you learn alot of armies fast.
You hit the nail on the head, arguments aside, I would love to do all-comer-lists, we just never looked at it like that. Our idea was always, "try not to use too much cheese, or powergame lists" against each other. I would love to try this out sometime. The best game he and I ever had (my personal favorite game ever) was one I lost to him, because of how much of an awesome slug match it was, and there was zero cheese on either side. That's a very good point you made.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/11/21 09:09:57
Space Wolves waiting for flyers...I think Russ will be back before then..... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/21 09:07:17
Subject: Re:Is this cheese, or justified?
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Douglas Bader
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bobamus87 wrote:Something my friend failed to mention, (I am the opponent he is talking about) is that it was to be our LAST GAME!
Then you should have made this clear and negotiated clear agreement on what forces each of you were going to bring instead of just assuming that your opponent wasn't going to have any nasty tricks that might interfere with your one-dimensional army.
I could have done much worse, The game was basically a 3 hour snooze match.Where I couldn't shoot for 80% of it, and the rest of the time, most of my stuff was dead.
Which is entirely your fault. Don't want to be crippled by night fighting? Try doing something other than deploying more than 36" away with no ability to move closer, no expendable Rhinos to searchlight targets, etc. You played a one-dimensional army and you paid the price. Deal with it.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/21 09:12:46
Subject: Re:Is this cheese, or justified?
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Speedy Swiftclaw Biker
Charleston SC
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I agree in a way, but that's not even close to all that I had. I had 40 grey hunters, 20 mounted up, and 30 scouts, and 30 Fenrisian wolves. Hardly one dimensional. I didn't put that earlier though. All I know is, one of our friends is VERY unbiased, and has played for a long time, and he said it was BS before the game even began. I Think Carnage is right in that, no one is at fault, we should just do all-comers lists for a change.
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Space Wolves waiting for flyers...I think Russ will be back before then..... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/21 09:18:26
Subject: Re:Is this cheese, or justified?
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Douglas Bader
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bobamus87 wrote:I agree in a way, but that's not even close to all that I had. I had 40 grey hunters, 20 mounted up, and 30 scouts, and 30 Fenrisian wolves. Hardly one dimensional. I didn't put that earlier though. All I know is, one of our friends is VERY unbiased, and has played for a long time, and he said it was BS before the game even began. I Think Carnage is right in that, no one is at fault, we should just do all-comers lists for a change.
If you didn't have a one-dimensional list then why weren't you able to react to his night fighting by closing in and killing him at shorter range? Why weren't you able to use the searchlights on your grey hunter transports to light up targets for your long fangs? Why weren't you able to throw the wolves at him and start wiping units off the table? Either:
1) You had a one-dimensional list and/or plan that only consisted of "sit back and shoot", and once you encountered something that interfered with that strategy you had no ability to adapt.
or
2) It wasn't really that one-sided a game, you weren't unable to shoot for 80% of it, and you're complaining about the fact that some of your units were reduced in effectiveness while the rest of them engaged the enemy.
So which is it?
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/21 09:29:08
Subject: Re:Is this cheese, or justified?
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Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought
rainbow dashing to your side
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While I have nothing against taking powerful lists I do have a problem with people tailoring their armies to beat a specific army. A specific race isn’t too bad as it's kind of hard not to pack some anti-psychic when fighting eldar, or flamers when fighting bugs but to build your list to counter a single army is, in my opinion, a poor example of gaming and sportsmanship. When winning becomes more important than playing then you may as well not play at all
This is of course just my opinion. Yours may vary
Automatically Appended Next Post: Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: Carnage43 wrote:It's not cheese, it's something else entirely.
When 2 people play each other exclusively, or at least fairly often, when both of you are competitive gamers, you get into these "paper-rock-scissor" arms races. He built an army that beats yours, so you build an army that will beat his, so he will turn around and build an army that will counter your doomsday machine/night spam. It's an endless cycle of paper rock scissors until one of you gets pissed off and quits, which it looks like is where he is at the moment.
You both need to stop making lists to counter the other and construct proper all comer lists.
If he still builds 6 long fang death machine lists, then try stepping down to 1999+1 point lists with 1 FoC. At least that way the amount of crap he can throw at you is limited.
you both need to play each other less, Carnage is 100% right i play once a week every week for about a year solid now and been playing for about 10 years to boot. If you are both taking armies perfectly designed to beat one another your orginal impulse is to escalate the tactic in your favor. For the longest time I would say "what you playing?... great okay I just need to build this." But a few years back playing orks ... well it got tiresome and someone said in passing how they hate when people do that.
I asked why because they will invariably do the same to you once your announce what you are playing. They had a surprisingly accurate response, "because if this game is all about having the perfect list against your enemy you will never be seen as a smart player, you are just taking what works." It boggled me for awhile cause to me victory meant success, but after a few days of thought i realized how right he was. Just because i took 15 burna boyz against nids or guards and then suddenly changed to lootas against eldar and dark eldar i started finding that i was swapping too much that i couldn't take a static list and just ... win.
This prompted me to actually understand the strengths and weaknesses of units to such a degree that i learned how important shooting was against enemies with high Init; that painful lesson was learned when i was assaulted by only 10 genestealers and lost my whole units of 30 boyz.. I learned how stupid it is fire at something right before assaulting it with barely enough charge distance (mitagated somewhat now)
The point is cheese turns into a fast slope but tome it isn't something you should feel bad about but should always strive to not use such tactics till it's forcefed to you like some armies right now. You both should just apologize and suggest this "all comers list" concept. It will honestly force you to play to the best of your abilities. Keep in mind that when you learn how to be aggressive enough to make an all comers list work maybe humor the idea of replaying these lists and seeing if you have both learned to play better.
Ultimately i think you both just need new enemies the talk of cheese is normally resentment for a person on a social level (i.e you friends can tell you how it is. a stranger won't) if you can join leagues or the like they really help you learn alot of armies fast.
I can't say how much I agree with this enough and it's refershing to see someone who has this idea.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/21 09:37:32
my little space marine army, now 20% cooler http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/424613.page
school league:
round 1 2011 W/2 L/1 D/0 round 1 2012 : W/2 L/1 D/0
round 2 2011 W/3 L/0 D/0 round 2 2012 W/3 L/0 D/0
round 3 2011: W/2 L/0 D/1 round 3 2012 W/4 L/0 D/0
school league champions 2011
school league champions 2012
"best painted army, warhammer invasion 2012/2013 |
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