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I've looked into the lore I could find on the missing Space Marine Legions and their Primarchs, however I can't help but find that it seems pointless to exclude their background entirely. At first, when I knew less about the subject, I figured these were just blank placeholders for a player to make up his own fan Legion, but this has proven false. In almost every case the fluff seems to heavily imply they, and their Primarchs, were utterly destroyed, then their existences erased from records. One account even blatantly implying the Space Wolves were responsible for terminating at least one of them. Bearing that in mind, if they are canonically destroyed, why keep them a secret? It's not like they can make an impact on the story anymore, they might as well reveal them and what they did to deserve it.

I find it kind of odd that the backstories of 18 legions could be written about extensively and neither of the two "lost legions" be mentioned, nor the primarchs.

It allows people to do their own thing. When 40k first came out it was not as fleshed out as it is now. My Chapter "The Vikings" was the 12th chapter because back in the day there was no official 12th chapter. Now people ask me how that is possible. I just tell them I've been playing so long, and I'm not going to change my fluff which is older than the currently established cannon.

As Andrew says, it's there for people to do as they wish with so they can create their own thing. Because the Warhammer 40,000 Universe is all about the background of the setting, not definite set-in-stone stories, it's all about how you interpret it yourself - everything in 40k is open to individual interpretation & the two 'Lost Legions' allow people to fill the gap by creating their own story/background for their own 30k Astartes Legion.

Because it's always been that way, and that's part of the mystery of the Heresy.

Just because a few years ago Games Workshop realized they could make a boatload of money selling license fiction about 30K, doesn't mean they are going to change one of the oldest pieces of fluff.

And technically, the 2nd and 11th were never there for players to make up their own Chapters. That's sort of a misunderstood bit of the fluff that has been perpetuated in the 40K community. The fact that the 1000 Chapters aren't named allows you to make up your own Chapter. Some people just decided to run with making their Chapter the super special snowflake 2nd or 11th Chapters (they didn't get redefined as Legions until later).

It is correct, however, that the original idea about the 2nd and 11th was that they were erased after the Heresy. Rick Priestley had offered up the idea ("unofficially") that the 2nd and 11th were actually erased as a "reward", because they had originally turned traitor, and later switched back over. Expunging their records meant that nobody knew that they had been traitorous scum at first. However, that has changed slowly but surely over the years as more info came out about the Heresy. When the Heresy had a backstory a couple pages long, it didn't matter when/who. Once they started describing every battle and every action, etc, it wasn't possible to just have one that isn't talked about. Especially now that the Heresy has been expounded on in narrative form with the Black Library novels.

The bottom line is: The missing legions have no back story because the fluff has always been that way, and it isn't going to change. GW enjoys keeping that bit in the canon, even if they've had to alter it somewhat.

Because it allows you to make up your own Astartes Chapter that has somehow descendant from one of the lost Legions. It allows you to make unique fluff if you are not comfortable with any of the other Legions.

The 2nd and 11th allegedly were merged into the Ultramarines, and I recall from a HH novel that in a gallery of Primarch statues, there were 2 empty pedestals.

Because not knowing, having a feeling of mystery, and using your imagination is infinitely preferable to having everything spelled out for you in agonising detail.

GW likes to keep "options open" for people, they want you to make your own theories/armies/fan-fics over it. That being said, I haven't seen much of the aforementioned on the lost legions save countless internet forum threads.

Also they themselves don't know what to do with it, and always keep a back door open to retcon things if they want.

 Kaldor wrote:
Because not knowing, having a feeling of mystery, and using your imagination is infinitely preferable to having everything spelled out for you in agonising detail.

Completely agree with this. Same reason the Legion of the Damned aren't as cool anymore, and the Heresy has lost some of it's intrigue.

 Kaldor wrote:
Because not knowing, having a feeling of mystery, and using your imagination is infinitely preferable to having everything spelled out for you in agonising detail.

Hey, I'm all for mystery, I just wish the fluff didn't basically say these Legions are dead and buried, along with their names. It should at least hint at that these Legions still exist in some form or another, like how Vet Sergeant put it in that they are secretly redeemed. I can sympathize with this, I mean, look what happened to the Necrons.

Also I think not knowing why happened to the 2nd and 11th leaves options open for GW as well, because if gak goes down in a really bad way a primary or two could really help out the forces of the imperium, as would a primarch that has a very active role in the forces of chaos' activities keep chaos going if the smurf somehow manage to Cato Sicarus cheese their way to victory in the 13th black crusade by sending in 1 company and killing about 7,000 chaos space marines to every loyalist space marine death. Just like how in the new rule book (not brb because that's the fantasy rule book guys) Cato Sicarus kills a daemon prince by stabbing his sword through its heart, which is funny because space marines have two hearts, making that impossible, but that's ultramarines for ya. Rant over

It's also more fun not to know every single thing all the time...

Basically, not knowing keeps us all trailing behind the tail coats, calf eyed and with our mouths open and tongue hanging out. It makes them some money, while also keeping us fans inspired and talking next to the water cooler like the gossip mongers we are. Just remember, throughout the great crusade, the emperor was reunited with all 20 primarchs, however, by the time the heresy came forth, the two legions were lost. In conclusion, it's the emperor's own business why he locked his kids in the closet and won't let them out, and we might as well accept that fact that we won't be able to ask him why until he wakes up, if ever.

because dakka would be a very dull place without the weekly "I think that the lost legion is the derp marines and that the other one is the herp marines"



it also gives us a chance to add our own fluff to the story :'3

Nemesor wrote:
Also I think not knowing why happened to the 2nd and 11th leaves options open for GW as well, because if gak goes down in a really bad way a primary or two could really help out the forces of the imperium, as would a primarch that has a very active role in the forces of chaos' activities keep chaos going if the smurf somehow manage to Cato Sicarus cheese their way to victory in the 13th black crusade by sending in 1 company and killing about 7,000 chaos space marines to every loyalist space marine death. Just like how in the new rule book (not brb because that's the fantasy rule book guys) Cato Sicarus kills a daemon prince by stabbing his sword through its heart, which is funny because space marines have two hearts, making that impossible, but that's ultramarines for ya. Rant over

A circulatory system is still a sealed system, no matter how many hearts it has. More hearts means each one does less work, increasing the systems ability to operate effectively under pressure, but if you put a big hole in the system (like stabbing one of the hearts with a sword, for example) It will still fail. Especially if there's a second heart which might pull air through the wound and into the circulatory system.

I always thought one was the Legion of the Damned. Then I thought the Legion of the Damned were the spirits of dead space marines.

The missing legions for one, add mystery, and also show how epicly powerful the imperium is. Two legions, each around 100k-150k strong, with the strongest warriors ever created, erased from everything. if that isn't testimony to the might of the imperium, then what is? Apart from having 2 million super warriors before the start of a war anyway.

 Perditious.C wrote:
Hey, I'm all for mystery, I just wish the fluff didn't basically say these Legions are dead and buried, along with their names.

Then interpret it as them not being 'dead & buried'. The background stuff isn't concrete, it is often contradictory & open to interpretation, so view it as you want to.

well just rememeber it was horus who led the fight on the emperor

The main point of these omissions is that they are for you to fill in.

That's the main asset of the 40K universe over things like Warmachine, etc.. , They actively encourage you to tinker with it.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 Perditious.C wrote:
Hey, I'm all for mystery, I just wish the fluff didn't basically say these Legions are dead and buried, along with their names.

Then interpret it as them not being 'dead & buried'. The background stuff isn't concrete, it is often contradictory & open to interpretation, so view it as you want to.

This is the basis of Ward-hammer

You could look at it as making the story of the Heresy even more tragic because warning signs were there that Primarchs and Legions could go wrong although that is based on hindsight rather than what 40K writers may have originallyintended. The current crop of authors are adding to the mystery. "The Lost and the Purged". Covered statues of Primarchs. Characters voicing aloud the question of how the Ultramarines became the largest Legion. Primarchs refusing to even discuss what went before. I hope it is never cleared up. Mystery is good!

This brings up an interesting issue.

In one of the HH books it is mentioned that Leman Russ and the Space Wolves were sent after one of the lost legions and exterminated them. And once again, the wolves are sent after the Thousand Sons and told to bring them in.

And yet, one of the Ultramarines develops a theoretical combat doctrine of fighting other space marines, and he gets censured.

Sorry for the slightly OT comment, I've just been reading Know No Fear.

As to the lost legions, I feel as though it was originally meant to give players a chance to enter a chapter into the game that didn't come from one of the traitor or loyalist legions we know and love, but at the same time we've gone so long where people are like, "no, this isn't how you do it." and so we're left with a gap that won't be filled because we're telling ourselves it can't be filled (we might also include semi-official GW people).

I like the mystery of the two missing legions and their primarchs. I think the story of the Primarchs and the Heresy make a good mysterious background for the "present" in 40k. Even if they've decided to fill in a lot of the background with the HH novels, it is nice they kept some things obscure.

Oh, and on a less serious note, one of the missing primarchs has been detailed pretty fully: Sigmar from WFB.

 Alfndrate wrote:
This brings up an interesting issue.

In one of the HH books it is mentioned that Leman Russ and the Space Wolves were sent after one of the lost legions and exterminated them. And once again, the wolves are sent after the Thousand Sons and told to bring them in.

And yet, one of the Ultramarines develops a theoretical combat doctrine of fighting other space marines, and he gets censured.

Sorry for the slightly OT comment, I've just been reading Know No Fear.

Well I cant imagine the idea of fighting other Space Marines is encouraged, whilst it could also be a case of only higher ups knowing of the circumstances, it was Russ who mentioned it within Prospero Burns IIRC afterall (although this could be contradicted by the Gal Vorbak in 1st Heretic).

Personally, I like all the hints to the missing Legions. I don't really care whether they reveal all or not, but I like all the sly and notsosly references.

 Just Dave wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
This brings up an interesting issue.

In one of the HH books it is mentioned that Leman Russ and the Space Wolves were sent after one of the lost legions and exterminated them. And once again, the wolves are sent after the Thousand Sons and told to bring them in.

And yet, one of the Ultramarines develops a theoretical combat doctrine of fighting other space marines, and he gets censured.

Sorry for the slightly OT comment, I've just been reading Know No Fear.

Well I cant imagine the idea of fighting other Space Marines is encouraged, whilst it could also be a case of only higher ups knowing of the circumstances, it was Russ who mentioned it within Prospero Burns IIRC afterall (although this could be contradicted by the Gal Vorbak in 1st Heretic).

Personally, I like all the hints to the missing Legions. I don't really care whether they reveal all or not, but I like all the sly and notsosly references.

I agree that it was probably not something that they would want their marines knowing, but Guilliman wants his marines prepared for ANYTHING, and as such has written countless theoretical and practical dissertations on the subject matter. I would want my soldiers to be prepared for the unthinkable. Granted they weren't prepared for the Warp (ala the Whisperheads in Horus Rising, which to that point they thought it was unthinkable).

alphaecho wrote:
The current crop of authors are adding to the mystery. "The Lost and the Purged". Covered statues of Primarchs. Characters voicing aloud the question of how the Ultramarines became the largest Legion. Primarchs refusing to even discuss what went before. I hope it is never cleared up. Mystery is good!

That's my feelings on the matter. I love the drip feed of tidbits but I don't really want to know it all.

 Arcani wrote:
This is the basis of Ward-hammer

No, just the basis of the Warhammer settings. It's what happens when you have different people with different ideas writing parts of the background and then have a load of authors writing for the Black Library with their own ideas of the settings and then the Specialist Games versions of parts of the settings backgrounds plus the stuff from White Dwarf - all in all it's a big vat of differing things all relating to the same background. You just have to go through it & find what you find works best for you amongst the wealth of background there is in the Warhammer settings.

 Arcani wrote:

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 Perditious.C wrote:
Hey, I'm all for mystery, I just wish the fluff didn't basically say these Legions are dead and buried, along with their names.

Then interpret it as them not being 'dead & buried'. The background stuff isn't concrete, it is often contradictory & open to interpretation, so view it as you want to.

This is the basis of Ward-hammer

And the Ward-whiners strike again...

The missing legions have been part of the fluff almost sonce the beginning. They are mysterys, either for us to solve or just wonder about. They are referenced in several BL books as being something the Marines should be talking about.

I also assume you are also the kind of people who like everything spelled out in the movies, as well?

The lost legions help account for some of the current listed chapters who's origin is unknown.
I'd rather have them lost then have crappy fluff written about them.
Fire Hawks were rad, not so much any more.
I wouldn't want the lost legions to get the same treatment.

-Matt