Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

At what point do the hits from precision shots allocate?

For example:

I have 10 scouts, and fire at a unit (lets say termies with a CML).

I get 2 6's, meaning two precision shots.

Of the two shots, I roll a 4 and a 6 to wound - 1 wound and 1 rend.

My question is, can I now allocate the rend to the CML termy and the regular wound to some other terminator, or do I have to have chosen who to allocate the HITS to before I rolled to wound?

I searched through previous threads but couldn't find anything explaining this thoroughly.

I assume these are sniper rifle shots?

For safety's sake, I'd roll the wound on precision separately. That's what we do and it prevents the cold stare from across the table.

You place the precision shots, then roll to wound, you don't roll to wound then place.

You don't allocate hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 juraigamer wrote:
You place the precision shots, then roll to wound, you don't roll to wound then place.

That's incorrect, "Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit" Pg. 63.

For a character or weapon with the precision shot rule (Like Sniper rifles) you, for example:

Have a unit of 5 scouts with sniper rifles.

You roll to hit 5 times and get 3 sixes.
Next you roll to wound for those 3 sixes and wound 2 times (One 6 rend and one 4)

These two wounds can be allocated to any model within range instead of following the normal rules for wound allocation.

Edited.

No, the shooting player may allocate the wounds. How we play it is if we roll a precision shot, we rolld that wound separately. It may or may not pass or have another special rule. Then we allocate the wound.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
No, the shooting player may allocate the wounds. How we play it is if we roll a precision shot, we roll that wound separately. It may or may not pass or have another special rule. Then we allocate the wound.

This is the correct way to do it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
No, the shooting player may allocate the wounds. How we play it is if we roll a precision shot, we roll that wound separately. It may or may not pass or have another special rule. Then we allocate the wound.

This is the correct way to do it.

Indeed.

Except that precision shots and strikes are only preformed by characters, so 5 generic scouts rolling 6's means nothing.
The scout sergeant however, can.

psyklone wrote:Except that precision shots and strikes are only preformed by characters, so 5 generic scouts rolling 6's means nothing.

You might want to brush up on the Sniper special rule on page 42.

 psyklone wrote:
Except that precision shots and strikes are only preformed by characters, so 5 generic scouts rolling 6's means nothing.
The scout sergeant however, can.

You must have missed my earlier post.

 DeathReaper wrote:
For a character or weapon with the precision shot rule (Like Sniper rifles) you, for example:...

Cold stares notwithstanding, the wounds are allocated, not hits. To be honest, the rules regarding hits and wounds make little real world sense, so don't try to rationalize them. They are overly simplified mechanics to make for a fun game, not really designed to be indicative of anything real world

Regarding psyklone, note that any model with a Sniper Rifle has the special rule Sniper, which allows them to allocate wounds on a to hit roll of a 6.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 psyklone wrote:
Except that precision shots and strikes are only preformed by characters, so 5 generic scouts rolling 6's means nothing.
The scout sergeant however, can.

You must have missed my earlier post.

 DeathReaper wrote:
For a character or weapon with the precision shot rule (Like Sniper rifles) you, for example:...

Sorry, yes I missed where you gave the OP's scouts sniper rifles

New, fairly related question. Couldn't find the same question posed in search.

Lets say you have multiple precision shot wounds, lets say 3 wounds. For the sake of my argument, lets say they are all identical (eg not rends). We have clearly established there is no issue with allocating them if you want them all on different models. For example, 1 on the lascannon guy, 1 on the melta guy, 1 on the sergeant. That's fine. What if that isn't what you want though? Let's say you want the sergeant dead. Are the wounds allocated one at a time? For example, I allocate a wound, he saves it, I allocate another, it kills him, then I allocate the remaining wound to someone else in the squad? Or are they all done simultaneously, so I would have to declare all 3 wounds on the sergeant and the other one elsewere, potentially 'losing' wounds?

I can't find rules to clearly back this up, because the precision shots rule states to the effect of 'rather than following normal wound allocation rules...'. Please provide page numbers to support your arguments one way or the other.

In case it influences the answer, the specific instance that raised this question is Telion manning a quad gun, which easily generates multiple precision shots. But it could equally apply to a good roll for a sniper squad.

The wounds are allocated at the same time. At the same time as the normal wounds, in fact.

So, if you get 2 normal and 3 precision wounds, the normal wounds get allocated to the first model group, and the three others are allocated by the shooter.

So, you can put all three wounds to the sergeant if you want. Saves are rolled all at the same time after wounds are allocated.

So hit -> wound -> allocate -> saves. Only differing part is "allocate", where the shooter allocates the wounds instead of the normal "first in line gets hit" allocation.

As above. And, because you have allocated them, if the sarge dies from the "first" wound, the other two ar lost - you have no ability to reallocate

Actually, if there is a character in the unit, all wounds caused are allocated one at a time, same way if it was a mixed save unit:

Errata:
"Change subheader to “Mixed Saves and Characters”.
Change the first sentence to read “If the target unit contains several different saving throws, or at least one character…”

I know that nobody actually plays it like this because it slows the game down by huge amount, but it would allow you to resolve those Precision shots one at a time.

kaapelikala wrote:So, you can put all three wounds to the sergeant if you want. Saves are rolled all at the same time after wounds are allocated.

So, if you get 2 normal and 3 precision wounds, the normal wounds get allocated to the first model group, and the three others are allocated by the shooter.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above. And, because you have allocated them, if the sarge dies from the "first" wound, the other two ar lost - you have no ability to reallocate

Actually that's not quite right.

For a non-mixed unit you allocate Unsaved Wounds, so if you get 5 precision shots (which all manage to wound and your opponent fails saves for), you just pick 5 models (in range/LOS of the character) to kill.

For mixed units, you do allocate wounds before saves, but you do it one at a time. So if you got 5 precision shots that wounded, you'd allocate 1 to the sarge, he'd roll his save, then you'd allocate the next wound, etc.

The only way to lose precision shots is if your character is out of range/LoS of any enemy models.

Luide wrote:
Actually, if there is a character in the unit, all wounds caused are allocated one at a time, same way if it was a mixed save unit:

Errata:
"Change subheader to “Mixed Saves and Characters”.
Change the first sentence to read “If the target unit contains several different saving throws, or at least one character…”

I know that nobody actually plays it like this because it slows the game down by huge amount, but it would allow you to resolve those Precision shots one at a time.

Just roll as many saves as it would take to get to the character. So if three models are closer than the character, roll three saves at a time. Obviously deduct as fails are made until you reach the character. Speeds it up a bit and still follows the ordering. But yes, it does still slow the game down a little bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

kaapelikala wrote:So, you can put all three wounds to the sergeant if you want. Saves are rolled all at the same time after wounds are allocated.

So, if you get 2 normal and 3 precision wounds, the normal wounds get allocated to the first model group, and the three others are allocated by the shooter.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above. And, because you have allocated them, if the sarge dies from the "first" wound, the other two ar lost - you have no ability to reallocate

Actually that's not quite right.

For a non-mixed unit you allocate Unsaved Wounds, so if you get 5 precision shots (which all manage to wound and your opponent fails saves for), you just pick 5 models (in range/LOS of the character) to kill.

For mixed units, you do allocate wounds before saves, but you do it one at a time. So if you got 5 precision shots that wounded, you'd allocate 1 to the sarge, he'd roll his save, then you'd allocate the next wound, etc.

The only way to lose precision shots is if your character is out of range/LoS of any enemy models.

If they're shooting at a squad with a sergeant, it's a mixed save unit. So, for the context in question, they were not wrong.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

kaapelikala wrote:So, you can put all three wounds to the sergeant if you want. Saves are rolled all at the same time after wounds are allocated.

So, if you get 2 normal and 3 precision wounds, the normal wounds get allocated to the first model group, and the three others are allocated by the shooter.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above. And, because you have allocated them, if the sarge dies from the "first" wound, the other two ar lost - you have no ability to reallocate

Actually that's not quite right.

For a non-mixed unit you allocate Unsaved Wounds, so if you get 5 precision shots (which all manage to wound and your opponent fails saves for), you just pick 5 models (in range/LOS of the character) to kill.

For mixed units, you do allocate wounds before saves, but you do it one at a time. So if you got 5 precision shots that wounded, you'd allocate 1 to the sarge, he'd roll his save, then you'd allocate the next wound, etc.

The only way to lose precision shots is if your character is out of range/LoS of any enemy models.

Excellent point about the unsaved wounds. That certainly resolves the issue for non-character models. I think I need to re-read through the rules on look-out-sir when I get home, though. In this instance, does LOS effectively make it a mixed-save unit? Once again to go back to my example and incorporate your new point, if I have three precision shot UNSAVED wounds on a normal tac marine squad, and I want to kill the sergeant, does his LOS effectively make him a mixed-save? So I can allocate one unsaved wound to him, he shifts it with LOS and a nearby marine dies. Second LOS fails, serg dies. Now I have one unsaved wound left so use it to take out the meltagun guy, for example. Correct? Or, because of look out sir, should the saving throws not be rolled until the sergeant is dead (mixed saves)? (hmm... does that really even matter? The saves aren't different, he is just able to shift them through look out sir...)

Kevin: You can't roll as many saves as it would take to get to the character in this instance as they are precision shots, you are effectively able to get to the character from the very first shot if you so choose. But... you have given me some food for thought. Using an example of regular, non-precision shooting: Lets say you shoot at a marine squad where the closest model is the sergeant. You score 3 wounds. In this instance, each wound is applied individually to the sergeant one at a time. He either tries to save or look out sir each one individually until he is dead. You never 'lose' wounds during regular shooting (aside from line-of-sight, or running out of dudes to kill, lol). So why would we lose wounds when precision shots are resolved?

So, I think I'm starting to lean towards each wound being treated individually. Precision shots in that sense simply create a virtual re-positioning of models, so the guy you want to kill most is now considered 'closest'. I think another read of the relevent BRB sections once I get home will clear this up nicely, but as of now I think this all meshes pretty well with the normal shooting/wound allocation rules. Thanks all!

Just to throw another curve ball in, remember that a precision sniper shot that also rends would be in a different wound pool from a precision sniper shot that wounded normally (rolled 4 or 5).
Since you process wound pool by wound pool, you might snipe the sarg with the rending hit, and then move on to the heavy/special weapon with the other hit(s).

-Matt

Cryogen wrote:Excellent point about the unsaved wounds. That certainly resolves the issue for non-character models. I think I need to re-read through the rules on look-out-sir when I get home, though. In this instance, does LOS effectively make it a mixed-save unit? Once again to go back to my example and incorporate your new point, if I have three precision shot UNSAVED wounds on a normal tac marine squad, and I want to kill the sergeant, does his LOS effectively make him a mixed-save? So I can allocate one unsaved wound to him, he shifts it with LOS and a nearby marine dies. Second LOS fails, serg dies. Now I have one unsaved wound left so use it to take out the meltagun guy, for example. Correct? Or, because of look out sir, should the saving throws not be rolled until the sergeant is dead (mixed saves)? (hmm... does that really even matter? The saves aren't different, he is just able to shift them through look out sir...)

So, I think I'm starting to lean towards each wound being treated individually. Precision shots in that sense simply create a virtual re-positioning of models, so the guy you want to kill most is now considered 'closest'. I think another read of the relevent BRB sections once I get home will clear this up nicely, but as of now I think this all meshes pretty well with the normal shooting/wound allocation rules. Thanks all!

According to the FAQ, the Sarge, being a character, means you use the rules for mixed saves (which is stupid and slows the game down immensely for no reason when they all have the same save). But you've got the right idea.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

kaapelikala wrote:So, you can put all three wounds to the sergeant if you want. Saves are rolled all at the same time after wounds are allocated.

So, if you get 2 normal and 3 precision wounds, the normal wounds get allocated to the first model group, and the three others are allocated by the shooter.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above. And, because you have allocated them, if the sarge dies from the "first" wound, the other two ar lost - you have no ability to reallocate

Actually that's not quite right.

For a non-mixed unit you allocate Unsaved Wounds, so if you get 5 precision shots (which all manage to wound and your opponent fails saves for), you just pick 5 models (in range/LOS of the character) to kill.

For mixed units, you do allocate wounds before saves, but you do it one at a time. So if you got 5 precision shots that wounded, you'd allocate 1 to the sarge, he'd roll his save, then you'd allocate the next wound, etc.

The only way to lose precision shots is if your character is out of range/LoS of any enemy models.

If they're shooting at a squad with a sergeant, it's a mixed save unit. So, for the context in question, they were not wrong.

They are wrong in saying that all wounds are allocated, then all saves are rolled at once. For a mixed save unit you completely resolve each wound before allocating the next one. So if you had 3 wounds from precision shots you'd allocate the first to the sarge, roll for LoS/Saves, (maybe) remove someone as a casualty, then allocate the next precision shot wound to the sarge or whomever else you'd like. You don't allocate everything up front.

Wounds are removed from wound poll so with 3 shots you hit sergent it doesn't go throw then you assign the next one. All wounds leaving wound pull are chose by shooter and persion shoots go one at a time at targets.

 psyklone wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 psyklone wrote:
Except that precision shots and strikes are only preformed by characters, so 5 generic scouts rolling 6's means nothing.
The scout sergeant however, can.

You must have missed my earlier post.

 DeathReaper wrote:
For a character or weapon with the precision shot rule (Like Sniper rifles) you, for example:...

Sorry, yes I missed where you gave the OP's scouts sniper rifles

well he was talking about rends, and bolt pistols and shotguns dont rend.

 Cryogen wrote:


Kevin: You can't roll as many saves as it would take to get to the character in this instance as they are precision shots, you are effectively able to get to the character from the very first shot if you so choose. But... you have given me some food for thought. Using an example of regular, non-precision shooting: Lets say you shoot at a marine squad where the closest model is the sergeant. You score 3 wounds. In this instance, each wound is applied individually to the sergeant one at a time. He either tries to save or look out sir each one individually until he is dead. You never 'lose' wounds during regular shooting (aside from line-of-sight, or running out of dudes to kill, lol). So why would we lose wounds when precision shots are resolved?

Yes, you are correct, however that was not the instance I was responding to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:
They are wrong in saying that all wounds are allocated, then all saves are rolled at once. For a mixed save unit you completely resolve each wound before allocating the next one. So if you had 3 wounds from precision shots you'd allocate the first to the sarge, roll for LoS/Saves, (maybe) remove someone as a casualty, then allocate the next precision shot wound to the sarge or whomever else you'd like. You don't allocate everything up front.

Their reference was to allocate all the precision shots on the sergeant which would, or could, all be rolled at the same time providing that all of them are in the same wound pool. Yes, the wound pools are still treated as being resolved one at a time but if you have the opportunity for fast rolling you can take it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 psyklone wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 psyklone wrote:
Except that precision shots and strikes are only preformed by characters, so 5 generic scouts rolling 6's means nothing.
The scout sergeant however, can.

You must have missed my earlier post.

 DeathReaper wrote:
For a character or weapon with the precision shot rule (Like Sniper rifles) you, for example:...

Sorry, yes I missed where you gave the OP's scouts sniper rifles

well he was talking about rends, and bolt pistols and shotguns dont rend.

Indeed, but could a sergeant not have a different weapon from the rest of his crew that would put him in a different wound pool as well?

Kevin949 wrote:Their reference was to allocate all the precision shots on the sergeant which would, or could, all be rolled at the same time providing that all of them are in the same wound pool. Yes, the wound pools are still treated as being resolved one at a time but if you have the opportunity for fast rolling you can take it.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Their reference was to allocate all the precision shots on the sergeant which would, or could, all be rolled at the same time providing that all of them are in the same wound pool. Yes, the wound pools are still treated as being resolved one at a time but if you have the opportunity for fast rolling you can take it.

This is wrong. For a mixed unit you allocate 1 wound at a time, then the model takes a save, and maybe dies. After that's done then you allocate the next wound, the model takes a save, etc. You would not (in fact according to the rules you cannot) allocate 3 wounds to the sarge up front before rolling saves.

Oh I see what you're saying, ya that's right.