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jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 faheykeyes wrote:

 Hedgehog wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
What out there could deal with 45 T6 wounds?

Grey Knight force weapons will take care of them very quickly...

hmm? Grey knights don't have a ton of attacks, not high strength, and Spawn are Daemons, thus immune to instant death. That, my friend, is what I think you are missing. If i am mistaken, please correct me.

(also, sorry if i seem snarly, I don't mean to be i Promise!)

Yea; Spawn from Codex Chaos Space Marines are not Immune to ID. Hell I'm pretty sure they're not even Daemons.

At s4 strikes and purifiers will struggle to wound a spawn, but every hit from a hammer will instagib one. Gk termies and pallies tend to run all hammers now, and the ndk can also instagib spawn on a 2+ to wound.

I see a lot of people discussing the seemingly endless list of rules for Spawn people are getting wrong, and whereas it is concerning, I'm more worried by the amount of people that don't know the plural for Spawn is Spawn, not Spawns

 schadenfreude wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 faheykeyes wrote:

 Hedgehog wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
What out there could deal with 45 T6 wounds?

Grey Knight force weapons will take care of them very quickly...

hmm? Grey knights don't have a ton of attacks, not high strength, and Spawn are Daemons, thus immune to instant death. That, my friend, is what I think you are missing. If i am mistaken, please correct me.

(also, sorry if i seem snarly, I don't mean to be i Promise!)

Yea; Spawn from Codex Chaos Space Marines are not Immune to ID. Hell I'm pretty sure they're not even Daemons.

At s4 strikes and purifiers will struggle to wound a spawn, but every hit from a hammer will instagib one. Gk termies and pallies tend to run all hammers now, and the ndk can also instagib spawn on a 2+ to wound.

Spawn charge Strikes. Strikes hit with 10 attacks (incl. Justicar), 2.22 wounds and then force weapon. Hammer then has a 55.5% chance to kill another. And that's most of the unit wiped. The Spawn throw back 18 attacks on average with 2 dead. Next round they lose 2A and the Strikes are at the same potency, killing the rest of the unit. Purifiers have double the attacks, and so wipe the unit on the turn they charge them.

On the rare occasion that Termies and Pallies still show up, no decent player takes all Hammers as they don't have a good enough invul. to reliably survive all that.

Dreadknight insta-gibs anything it touches.

So because there a unit or army that has a hard counter for Spawn, they shouldn't be taken? I know that's stretching the point, but doesn't just about everything in the game have a counter?

Whats more effective for the FA slot? Spawn or Helldrake? Think an "all comers".

 Byte wrote:
So because there a unit or army that has a hard counter for Spawn, they shouldn't be taken? I know that's stretching the point, but doesn't just about everything in the game have a counter?

Whats more effective for the FA slot? Spawn or Helldrake? Think an "all comers".

I would say both, In my experience with drakes i get a few half baked squads hanging around, at least with spawn you have something fast to clean up the mess.

 Byte wrote:
So because there a unit or army that has a hard counter for Spawn, they shouldn't be taken? I know that's stretching the point, but doesn't just about everything in the game have a counter?

Whats more effective for the FA slot? Spawn or Helldrake? Think an "all comers".

the drake is a flier, thus the more flyers you have the better they will be. Im not going to take my drake without my vendetta and im not going to take my vendetta without my drake. Hopefully they both come on the same turn and the intercepting lascannon/quadgun has to pick which to engaged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
now I think bikes are better than Spawn, but bikes you have to put more points into. Bikecide is good, but you can get termicide in a less competitive slot. Beyond that you need to be thinking 6-8 bikes with VotlW and special weapons, you end up with a 200 point unit that isnt fearless, so it needs to be babysat once it gets into combat.

 Exergy wrote:

 Byte wrote:
So because there a unit or army that has a hard counter for Spawn, they shouldn't be taken? I know that's stretching the point, but doesn't just about everything in the game have a counter?

Whats more effective for the FA slot? Spawn or Helldrake? Think an "all comers".

the drake is a flier, thus the more flyers you have the better they will be. Im not going to take my drake without my vendetta and im not going to take my vendetta without my drake. Hopefully they both come on the same turn and the intercepting lascannon/quadgun has to pick which to engaged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
now I think bikes are better than Spawn, but bikes you have to put more points into. Bikecide is good, but you can get termicide in a less competitive slot. Beyond that you need to be thinking 6-8 bikes with VotlW and special weapons, you end up with a 200 point unit that isnt fearless, so it needs to be babysat once it gets into combat.

Termicide is nice but no where near as nice as a min sized unit of melta bikers. Being able to get them anywhere in a single turn. Decent invulnerable save, high toughness. Can get out of dodge after they blow a vehicle. Tactically they are just better. Termicide rely on a lucky deepstrike roll. Its tough to land within 6" of your target. If you miss all you can do is run and then your opponent can just move away. Nothing gets away from bikers. He either has to focus some heavy fire on them or let them kill something.

Hmmm Bikes. Haven't really looked into that option. Over Spawn? Or to complement each other?

 Byte wrote:
Hmmm Bikes. Haven't really looked into that option. Over Spawn? Or to complement each other?

I like the heldrake for anti infantry and two cheap melta bike squads for anti-tank. I don't see the point of spawn. They have a lot of wounds. Wow. They can't really do anything though. No threat to vehicles, and no where near as good as the bale flamer against troops. Plus my troops are already very good anti troop. 3-4 squads of noise marines with doom sirens.

Kevlar wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Hmmm Bikes. Haven't really looked into that option. Over Spawn? Or to complement each other?

I like the heldrake for anti infantry and two cheap melta bike squads for anti-tank. I don't see the point of spawn. They have a lot of wounds. Wow. They can't really do anything though. No threat to vehicles, and no where near as good as the bale flamer against troops. Plus my troops are already very good anti troop. 3-4 squads of noise marines with doom sirens.

Two spawn have a very decent chance of glancing a vehicle to death on the rear armor. Aside from that, you run them up the board and the enemy is forced to shoot them, or get tied up in combat with them, or have them attack their weaker units. Many armies fear any kind of assault, whereas they might have ways to survive shooting. They have their uses in certain situations, but like you said there are other good units and I agree, they are best used in combination with other things, much like zombies... and good for the cost.

 Meade wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Hmmm Bikes. Haven't really looked into that option. Over Spawn? Or to complement each other?

I like the heldrake for anti infantry and two cheap melta bike squads for anti-tank. I don't see the point of spawn. They have a lot of wounds. Wow. They can't really do anything though. No threat to vehicles, and no where near as good as the bale flamer against troops. Plus my troops are already very good anti troop. 3-4 squads of noise marines with doom sirens.

Two spawn have a very decent chance of glancing a vehicle to death on the rear armor. Aside from that, you run them up the board and the enemy is forced to shoot them, or get tied up in combat with them, or have them attack their weaker units. Many armies fear any kind of assault, whereas they might have ways to survive shooting. They have their uses in certain situations, but like you said there are other good units and I agree, they are best used in combination with other things, much like zombies... and good for the cost.

Exactly, you should not be concerned about a dread or 2, Yes its hard counter if you enter cc with it but you are fast enough to stay away and you should have other things in your army to directly deal with any counters.
But as said, 45 T6 wounds fleeting towards you isnt exactly a walk in the park.

I really like the idea of Spawn accompanying a Juggerlord. What base are spawn supposed to be mounted on? Anything stopping me from just whipping up a couple tentacley masses and going to town?

Way I figure it, my havocs deal with any heavy armor or MCs (like Dreads or Dreadknights), while my incredibly fast unit can pick on squishy troops. That's what you want to do with a unit like this, right? Don't send this hammer against a larger hammer. Let it run rampant amongst the squishy underbelly. I sure as hell know that unit could kill most troop units in the game pretty reliably. I think the worst case scenario would probably be strikes and purifiers. But at that point, you'd probably want to shift tactics and make your "runamuck" unit a more rapid response, counter charge unit.

It's fast, deadly, and tough. Seems pretty good to me.

 gpfunk wrote:
I really like the idea of Spawn accompanying a Juggerlord. What base are spawn supposed to be mounted on? Anything stopping me from just whipping up a couple tentacley masses and going to town?

Way I figure it, my havocs deal with any heavy armor or MCs (like Dreads or Dreadknights), while my incredibly fast unit can pick on squishy troops. That's what you want to do with a unit like this, right? Don't send this hammer against a larger hammer. Let it run rampant amongst the squishy underbelly. I sure as hell know that unit could kill most troop units in the game pretty reliably. I think the worst case scenario would probably be strikes and purifiers. But at that point, you'd probably want to shift tactics and make your "runamuck" unit a more rapid response, counter charge unit.

It's fast, deadly, and tough. Seems pretty good to me.

Well autocannon havocs aren't super against AV12, and once the dread gets into close combat you can't shoot it. If people are screening their troops with a couple of dreads you can't just jump over them. Even if you get around the dread its still going to charge you next turn. Dreads are great area denial units and nice blockers for your squishies.

 gpfunk wrote:
I really like the idea of Spawn accompanying a Juggerlord. What base are spawn supposed to be mounted on? Anything stopping me from just whipping up a couple tentacley masses and going to town?

40mm is what is supplied. I am modeling mine on 40mm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:


Well autocannon havocs aren't super against AV12, and once the dread gets into close combat you can't shoot it. If people are screening their troops with a couple of dreads you can't just jump over them. Even if you get around the dread its still going to charge you next turn. Dreads are great area denial units and nice blockers for your squishies.

but meltaguns are good at AV12. Bikecide, termicide, raptors, or oblitorators. If not attack with spawn and then charge in with a squad of CSM, raptors, or bikes. Grenades and meltabombs finish them off.

Dreads are easy enough to kill now, you are seeing less and less of them. People are running to other options, like terminators, or ironclads.
Ironclads are even harder for autocannons to take out, but they cost more and have different weapon choices. They arent a 100 point tarpit.

Dont forget the tzeench (spelling?) spawns.

You need allied orks. Mad dok and one troop choice.
Give all the spawns bionic 5++ save upgrade for 5p each.
Add the tzeench invo improvement for a 4++ save.
This is really good for a unit without any save to start with.

Worse then nurgle vs str 10 weapons due to instant death.
But better against str 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 and 3. Assuming the they dont get any coversave.

 Vombat wrote:
Dont forget the tzeench (spelling?) spawns.

You need allied orks. Mad dok and one troop choice.
Give all the spawns bionic 5++ save upgrade for 5p each.
Add the tzeench invo improvement for a 4++ save.
This is really good for a unit without any save to start with.

Worse then nurgle vs str 10 weapons due to instant death.
But better against str 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 and 3. Assuming the they dont get any coversave.

infinitly worse against Str2. Gretchen beatdown!

To be fair, Grey Knights will still get slaughtered by the Khorne lord joining the Spawns, but yeah, massed force weapons are the Spawn's achillies heel. Though with T5-6, they might survive.

Still, planning your entire list to deal against massed forced weapons is a bit silly. If you are unlucky enough to face grey knight, then just use the spawn as bullet magnets.

Aso for the bikes thing, yes, spawn dont get cover saves, but they can use bikes as intervening squads to get the 5+ cover. Mostly though they follow them as a counter charge unit. The bikes zoom forward, making themselves very difficult to shoot to death, the spawn follow, going to cover midfield. If someone is silly enough to charge the bikes, the Spawn OM NOM NOM them.

DrDuckman wrote:
To be fair, Grey Knights will still get slaughtered by the Khorne lord joining the Spawns, but yeah, massed force weapons are the Spawn's achillies heel. Though with T5-6, they might survive.

Still, planning your entire list to deal against massed forced weapons is a bit silly. If you are unlucky enough to face grey knight, then just use the spawn as bullet magnets.

Aso for the bikes thing, yes, spawn dont get cover saves, but they can use bikes as intervening squads to get the 5+ cover. Mostly though they follow them as a counter charge unit. The bikes zoom forward, making themselves very difficult to shoot to death, the spawn follow, going to cover midfield. If someone is silly enough to charge the bikes, the Spawn OM NOM NOM them.

spawn can move through cover without difficulty, so do that. Its not like there init is terribly high anyway so them not having grenades isnt so much of an issue. Spawn live in cover.

Kevlar wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:
I really like the idea of Spawn accompanying a Juggerlord. What base are spawn supposed to be mounted on? Anything stopping me from just whipping up a couple tentacley masses and going to town?

Way I figure it, my havocs deal with any heavy armor or MCs (like Dreads or Dreadknights), while my incredibly fast unit can pick on squishy troops. That's what you want to do with a unit like this, right? Don't send this hammer against a larger hammer. Let it run rampant amongst the squishy underbelly. I sure as hell know that unit could kill most troop units in the game pretty reliably. I think the worst case scenario would probably be strikes and purifiers. But at that point, you'd probably want to shift tactics and make your "runamuck" unit a more rapid response, counter charge unit.

It's fast, deadly, and tough. Seems pretty good to me.

Well autocannon havocs aren't super against AV12, and once the dread gets into close combat you can't shoot it. If people are screening their troops with a couple of dreads you can't just jump over them. Even if you get around the dread its still going to charge you next turn. Dreads are great area denial units and nice blockers for your squishies.

I guess it isn't altogether odd that people assume when you say havocs you mean autocannon havocs. I was planning on taking lascannon havocs. There's a lot of heavy vehicles in my area and they cut that gak down like a hot knife through butter. They'll definitely be able to take down a dread that's denying me some squishy innards.

But this just becomes an endless game of armchair hammer. I say fast moving spawn, you say area denying dreads, I say quad lascannon havocs, you say infiltrating scouts.

Discussing all the counters to a unit becomes less and less of a factor in terms of dissuading people at a certain point. You could do that for any unit in the game and they'd come out looking a little worse for the wear. I'll be taking spawn because I am confident in the tactical flexibility and mobility of them, and also the fact that I can probably take out a couple dreads before I get there.

 L0rdF1end wrote:

Exactly, you should not be concerned about a dread or 2, Yes its hard counter if you enter cc with it but you are fast enough to stay away and you should have other things in your army to directly deal with any counters.
But as said, 45 T6 wounds fleeting towards you isnt exactly a walk in the park.

Against a lot of armies, guard for instance, I'd love to have 15 spawn. Nids and orks will have plenty gribblies of their own to deal with them, and probably just mow right through them with poison or lot of attacks. Same with the dark eldar and poison. I'd say necrons have a decent chance too especially if they have their vehicles. Also with a lot of armies spamming st 7-8 autocannon shots and plasma they may go down to that as well.

They are an awesome unit but I wouldn't make a whole army out of them. But it's true, even the 15 spawn build you will still have points left over at 2k to get other stuff... but you are missing your heldrake, that's the problem...

 Meade wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:

Exactly, you should not be concerned about a dread or 2, Yes its hard counter if you enter cc with it but you are fast enough to stay away and you should have other things in your army to directly deal with any counters.
But as said, 45 T6 wounds fleeting towards you isnt exactly a walk in the park.

Against a lot of armies, guard for instance, I'd love to have 15 spawn. Nids and orks will have plenty gribblies of their own to deal with them, and probably just mow right through them with poison or lot of attacks. Same with the dark eldar and poison. I'd say necrons have a decent chance too especially if they have their vehicles. Also with a lot of armies spamming st 7-8 autocannon shots and plasma they may go down to that as well.
They are an awesome unit but I wouldn't make a whole army out of them. But it's true, even the 15 spawn build you will still have points left over at 2k to get other stuff... but you are missing your heldrake, that's the problem...

autocannons and telsa are the problem. If they are wasting plasma shots on spawn you are winning out as you are probably getting cover and their AP2 is wasted on something without a save.

I cant see the attraction of Spawns, sure they move 12 and potentially have a boat load of attacks but without a save, at best they will have a +5 cover save. As a Necron player that fields 3 Barges + 3 Night scythes, a W3 T 5 - 6 model with no save is prime target for some Tesla spam, hell even Auto Cannons will sherd though these guys in no time. Outside of combat they are very venerable.

In combat is a better story but nothing great. Over Watch is not going to be pretty since you won't have a cover save and a failed charge will be a dead sentence. The Random spawn buffs in combat are ok,, The +4 amour is what you are hopping for., though poison is nice as you will get a re roll to wound on MEQ. With I3 and WS3 mean your likely to lose 3-4 wounds before you attack.

I'd say spawn certainly shouldn't assault a CC unit, their best role is attacking back field campers, chump units, or even units that rely on power weapons to instead of volumes of attacks to get the job done.

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
I cant see the attraction of Spawns, sure they move 12 and potentially have a boat load of attacks but without a save, at best they will have a +5 cover save.

It's not really that bad. Their ability to move through terrain means you can place them behind that wall or ruin easily, out of LOS. If you are playing with a decent amount of terrain that is. usually they take a few wounds before getting into combat but they have 3. You can also start the game with an ADL, and deploy it halfway up the board... turn one your spawn move behind it and grab a 4+. And for small arms fire having T6 might as well be a save.

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
I cant see the attraction of Spawns, sure they move 12 and potentially have a boat load of attacks but without a save, at best they will have a +5 cover save. As a Necron player that fields 3 Barges + 3 Night scythes, a W3 T 5 - 6 model with no save is prime target for some Tesla spam, hell even Auto Cannons will sherd though these guys in no time. Outside of combat they are very venerable.

In combat is a better story but nothing great. Over Watch is not going to be pretty since you won't have a cover save and a failed charge will be a dead sentence. The Random spawn buffs in combat are ok,, The +4 amour is what you are hopping for., though poison is nice as you will get a re roll to wound on MEQ. With I3 and WS3 mean your likely to lose 3-4 wounds before you attack.

I'd say spawn certainly shouldn't assault a CC unit, their best role is attacking back field campers, chump units, or even units that rely on power weapons to instead of volumes of attacks to get the job done.

with a 5+ coversave
str7 AP- spam(autocannons and tesla) is going to do 60% more wounds to T6 spawn than to Meq. Str6 AP-(multi and scatter lasers) will do 20% more wounds to T6 spawn than to Meq. Neither one of these is a huge change. DE posion will do 133% more wounds for example. Bolters do 33% less damage. Lasguns will do the same damage

with ADLs everywhere they will often be getting a 4+ save. Failed charge is a problem but they get to reroll their charge distance and arent slowed by difficult terrain so you get your 2d6 with any reroll you want on top of your 12" move.
These guys are cheap and a throwaway. You are right though, you arent going to charge them into something that has some awesome combat prowess but instead go after weaker units with less attacks. Then the T5/6 makes it so that between few attacks and low chance to wound the spawn never die. The only reason you are going to throw them at a CC beat stick is if you need to tie that beatstick up for a turn. Even if they lose, being fearless they might be able to get that job done.

I used to run a Spawn Rush list under 5th edition rules, the army list is here:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=260731

The big thing I found with Spawn is that multiple units help you. Opponents need to apply sustained, focused fire in order to take them down, and splitting that fire between multiple units always helps.

This is one thing that has not changed between 5th and 6th edition. While there are a lot of people using them as escorts for CLs on steeds, I find they are not as efficient as bikers and tend to be used in smaller units. For example, 5 unmarked spawn cost the same as 7 bikers with one of the marks, they actually get fewer attacks on average on the charge, and the mathhammer favors the bikers most of the time (except when Spawn get a 4+ armor save).

At 2000 points, someone could take 30 spawn, however, and march them up the board to tear into an opponent. Given how cheap they are in this edition, an inspired general could make a list centered around this tidal wave of Chaos and a ton of cheap troops to create a terrifying combination. I don't think most armies could deal with them very easily.

I just don't want to, my old Spawn list was useful but not fun to play.